1555 replies to this topic

[JudgeDeathCZ]

I agree with wintersdark...and you know what?I love how Founder is "I regret giving PGI money for promises...I just put down 80$ for SC" ... yeah he (again)put 80$(again) for promises(again)...

BTW there is vid on YT about phoenix mechs...22 hours to go .

[DirePhoenix]

POWR, on 14 October 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

True to an extent. But still just shows the {Noble MechWarrior} attitude you have towards some guy promising you the moon and talking about his relatively obscure games from the late 80s and early 90s that most people playing games today never even heard of and most people playing games back then never played. He then left the gamebusiness for 15-20 years and suddenly comes back going "I'll make the greatest game ever and I'll do it at half the budget of games that aren't even close to being the greatest game ever". If that doesn't sound like a hoax, then I really don't know what does. Still, I paid him some money. But since there's nothing I can play, they only get a minimum out of me.

Also could you please tell me where I'm accused of being the root of the problems I perceive this game to have?

Somewhere in there I lost if you were talking about Chris Roberts or Jordan Weisman...

[Chronojam]

Prosperity Park, on 14 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

There are no "paid forum mods" if you're referring to the Volunteer Forum Moderators (the ones with green fonts in their avatars). Volunteer Forum Moderators are just that, volunteering their time to free-up resources for IGP so that the game's publishers can have less busy work in their schedule. It's unfortunate that you would place such a strong bias against anyone who's been posting on the forums frequently, especially since many people have been visiting this site since 2011.

Are they giving Niko Snow peanuts for his time, then? Is this some kind of unpaid internship for Destiny and miss?

[MechFrog1]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 14 October 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

I agree with wintersdark...and you know what?I love how Founder is "I regret giving PGI money for promises...I just put down 80$ for SC" ... yeah he (again)put 80$(again) for promises(again)...

BTW there is vid on YT about phoenix mechs...22 hours to go .

Because if you get scammed by someone, that automatically means that everyone is out to scam you? Or can we be adults and treat people based upon their actions rather than your prejudice?

[Gregory Owen]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

I'm as stoked about SC as the next guy, but don't kid yourself. After it is publicly playable, the forums will be exactly like these ones. All online game forums are, always. Also, the game won't come anywhere close to living up to its own hype, they never do.

Ask closed beta vets how this game was then, how Dev interaction was, and what the game was promises to be.

Apply that to SC hype and "what this game will be" material.

Just the reality of things.

I have been here since early closed beta. the amount of communication from the devs has changed very little.

[Wintersdark]

mint frog, on 14 October 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Because if you get scammed by someone, that automatically means that everyone is out to scam you? Or can we be adults and treat people based upon their actions rather than your prejudice?

Come on, Mint, seriously. It's not that everyone is out to scam people, just like PGI wasn't out to scam Founders. But it's a simple reality, people are putting lots of money into SC (not a bad thing!!) and they are going to be disappointed, in the same manner many founders where. Not maybe. It absolutely will happen.

And Chris Roberts - like PGI - isn't trying to scam anyone. They're not setting out to hoodwink you, take your money, and deliver less than they promise. But no game developers ever deliver what they promise on multiplayer games, or even major single player titles. It's just pretty much impossible. History has shown this to be true in 100% of cases. Because despite what they may want to make, time, budgets, and the difficulty in scheduling the creation of a complex creative work like a video game simply SNAFU everything.

That's not cynicism in any way, it's just reality.

[Wintersdark]

Thanatos676, on 14 October 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

I have to agree with you Wintersdark, SC will not be "the best game ever". It may be good but it wont be what everyone is expecting, i think Chris bit off more then he can chew, especially with the continuing stretch goals..

Stretch goals in game development are the devil. It's much better to promise less, and acheive it. Too many stretch goals and you end up with an impossible set of requirements to meet, and wasting time pursuing those stretch goals hurts development of the core system.

You can estimate how much each aspect of development costs(in terms of man hours) but because this is a creative work, it's not like planning building a highway. You can't plan everything out, and things need to be created. When you're making something that's never been made before, there are always many, many surprises. Things that turn out way more difficult than you anticipated - things that you thought would be simple but in fact are enormously challenging, requiring exponentially more man-hours to accomplish. Then you're faced with a hard choice:

Change your design, or drop other features. Either or. You can't just magic up more man hours to deal with it. And because what you're making has never been made before, many of these challenges are impossible to predict. As such... The design changes in some places, and features get dropped in others.

One of the biggest challenges and disappointments for a game developer is that you know what you want to make. You do your best to plan for it, and make the game you want to make, but there are so very many things that conspire against you, and force you to make the game you can make with the resources you have, instead of the game you wanted to make.

Edited by Wintersdark, 14 October 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[stjobe]

To all the SC hopeful out there, let me just give you a bit of a history lesson. Anyone remember Battlecruiser 3000 AD?

Derek Smart was dreaming the same dream Chris Roberts is dreaming, and look where it got that game. It had more cancelled releases than actual releases - and those releases it had were buggy to the point of unplayability. Still, a lot of people rooted him on (I know I did), wanted the game to be all that he envisioned it to be, but it never happened.

So by all means, hope that Roberts can do what Smart couldn't, but please, please don't get your hopes up too high. Anyone can talk, and even if Roberts has a good name and a good history, the game is still three years away from release and anything can happen.

[MechFrog1]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Come on, Mint, seriously. It's not that everyone is out to scam people, just like PGI wasn't out to scam Founders. But it's a simple reality, people are putting lots of money into SC (not a bad thing!!) and they are going to be disappointed, in the same manner many founders where. Not maybe. It absolutely will happen.

And Chris Roberts - like PGI - isn't trying to scam anyone. They're not setting out to hoodwink you, take your money, and deliver less than they promise. But no game developers ever deliver what they promise on multiplayer games, or even major single player titles. It's just pretty much impossible. History has shown this to be true in 100% of cases. Because despite what they may want to make, time, budgets, and the difficulty in scheduling the creation of a complex creative work like a video game simply SNAFU everything.

That's not cynicism in any way, it's just reality.

Just because you run across one bad developer doesn't mean that all the others will follow suit. I don't regret my founders purchase, and I don't think PGI has scammed anyone. At this point, I go into SC with almost no expectations beyond, "it'll probably be a fun space game." If I walk out of that disappointed, so be it.

None of this excuses the legitimate and entirely reasonable concerns that many people, including myself, have about the direction that MWO has headed over the past nine months.

Your illegitimate and entirely inappropriate claim that our concerns are not valid because we are incapable of being pleased with a product is ridiculous. It reeks of a poor customer service rep blaming the customer because of shoddy service. "Oh well, nothing we could have done would have made him/her happy so why bother..."

Edited by mint frog, 14 October 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Thanatos676]

If your so fed up with MWO, why are you still on the forums? If i don't have fun with i game i don't troll its forums and still play it, i put it in the "do not play" bin and leave it there..

I have been having fun with MWO since it was in closed beta, and it is one of like 5 games i can rely on to be fun after such a long time. Stop complaining and find a new game, if that game is SC, then good, have fun with it, but don't sit and complain about a game you don't find to be fun, move on and find something else.

[Wintersdark]

mint frog, on 14 October 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Just because you run across one bad developer doesn't mean that all the others will follow suit. I don't regret my founders purchase, and I don't think PGI has scammed anyone. At this point, I go into SC with almost no expectations beyond, "it'll probably be a fun space game." If I walk out of that disappointed, so be it.

Did you go into MWO with those expectations? That aside, while you may not feel PGI has scammed anyone, that certainly is a common viewpoint amoungst many founders - particularly those who keep going on about how Star Citizen is going to be so much better.

I didn't run across one bad developer. I'm using very definite, literal terms here - not one major online game developer has *ever* delivered on what they said they wanted to do in their initial design briefs. Read my posts above carefully. I'm not calling any developer bad. I'm not saying Chris will do a bad job. I don't think PGI did a bad job. This has played out exactly as I outlined above in every single major game release, and it's always MUCH worse in multiplayer games due to the exponentially increased complexity. It's just how Game Development is.

Quote

None of this excuses the legitimate and entirely reasonable concerns that many people, including myself, have about the direction that MWO has headed over the past nine months.

Your illegitimate and entirely inappropriate claim that our concerns are not valid because we are incapable of being pleased with a product is ridiculous.

What? I didn't claim your concerns were invalid. Why would you even say that? I may not agree with all your concerns, but I've always maintained that founders if anyone have a reason to be disgruntled about how the game went, as it certainly did change in ways directly different than the initial vision presented.

All I'm saying is, people highlight these concerns, then point to Star Citizen, and go on like it's some Jesus game wherein everything they feel went wrong with MWO will somehow magically not happen again. What I'm saying is that pretty much everything that people are upset about with PGI and MWO? Almost all of it is extremely normal, and will happen with SC too, like it has with practically every other game before MWO.

[NocturnalBeast]

PGI, if you are still reading this thread after all the BS, please let us know if people who purchased Phoenix packages, will be able to add the Saber Mechs after the 15th, or not? Thanks

Edited by Ed Steele, 14 October 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[DirePhoenix]

Ed Steele, on 14 October 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

PGI, if you are still reading this thread after all the BS, please let us know if people who purchased Phoenix packages, will be able to add the Saber Mechs after the 15th, or not? Thanks

The Saber 'Mechs (Wolverine and Griffin) will be added on Dec. 17, as described on the Project Phoenix page.

[Thanatos676]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Did you go into MWO with those expectations? That aside, while you may not feel PGI has scammed anyone, that certainly is a common viewpoint amoungst many founders - particularly those who keep going on about how Star Citizen is going to be so much better.

I didn't run across one bad developer. I'm using very definite, literal terms here - not one major online game developer has *ever* delivered on what they said they wanted to do in their initial design briefs. Read my posts above carefully. I'm not calling any developer bad. I'm not saying Chris will do a bad job. I don't think PGI did a bad job. This has played out exactly as I outlined above in every single major game release, and it's always MUCH worse in multiplayer games due to the exponentially increased complexity. It's just how Game Development is.

[size=4]
What? I didn't claim your concerns were invalid. Why would you even say that? I may not agree with all your concerns, but I've always maintained that founders if anyone have a reason to be disgruntled about how the game went, as it certainly did change in ways directly different than the initial vision presented.

All I'm saying is, people highlight these concerns, then point to Star Citizen, and go on like it's some Jesus game wherein everything they feel went wrong with MWO will somehow magically not happen again. What I'm saying is that pretty much everything that people are upset about with PGI and MWO? Almost all of it is extremely normal, and will happen with SC too, like it has with practically every other game before MWO.

I have been saying this for awhile now, but all my friends think I am crazy or high or both. I will not relish it when the SC community begins to spit venom like this one does, but i will say "i told you so" to a few friends.

[Chronojam]

Thanatos676, on 14 October 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

I have been saying this for awhile now, but all my friends think I am crazy or high or both. I will not relish it when the SC community begins to spit venom like this one does, but i will say "i told you so" to a few friends.

That presumes that all developers tell players they're "on an island" or sit around playing Tetris during nine-day-late launch events, claim complaints in response to byzantine new mechanics are just "noise" they must be outlasted rather than addressed, pull a 180 on "design pillars," and generally screw the pooch on community relations. Do you truly anticipate this recipe for disaster being cooked up by Chef Roberts?

I mean if this was so common, everybody would just laugh instead of coming to tears when interviews from November 2012 are posted.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Chronojam, on 14 October 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Are they giving Niko Snow peanuts for his time, then?

Niko is paid in the tears and the deleted screams of nerfherders, kind of like the spare change equivalent of souls.

[MechFrog1]

Thanatos676, on 14 October 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

If your so fed up with MWO, why are you still on the forums? If i don't have fun with i game i don't troll its forums and still play it, i put it in the "do not play" bin and leave it there..

I have been having fun with MWO since it was in closed beta, and it is one of like 5 games i can rely on to be fun after such a long time. Stop complaining and find a new game, if that game is SC, then good, have fun with it, but don't sit and complain about a game you don't find to be fun, move on and find something else.

To whom are you speaking?

Quote

What I'm saying is that pretty much everything that people are upset about with PGI and MWO? Almost all of it is extremely normal, and will happen with SC too, like it has with practically every other game before MWO.

So you agree with my original position that the MWO community isn't any different from any other gaming community, and therefore are going to side with me in opposition to those who will attempt to place blame on the community if MWO isn't a success in the long run.

Glad we could settle that.

Edited by mint frog, 14 October 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[POWR]

Chronojam, on 14 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

That presumes that all developers tell players they're "on an island" or sit around playing Tetris during nine-day-late launch events, claim complaints in response to byzantine new mechanics are just "noise" they must be outlasted rather than addressed, pull a 180 on "design pillars," and generally screw the pooch on community relations. Do you truly anticipate this recipe for disaster being cooked up by Chef Roberts?

I mean if this was so common, everybody would just laugh instead of coming to tears when interviews from November 2012 are posted.

Well, why wouldn't it happen the moment his raving {Noble MechWarriors} turn into raving hateboys, make ridiculous signatures about his company, call him names, call into question the professional qualities of his employees and so on and so forth, after seeing what the actual game they're going to get will be, after it's been through a round of "tweaks" to make it more mainstream friendly. After all, if he spends all the 22 million on development and that was all the sales to the core fanbase, how will the turn a profit after the game launches? A thousand bazillion microstransactions to tear great holes in the core fanbases' wallets? I guess so...
Because, hey, look at how even in PC heyday the various spaceshooters that used things like newtonian physics went in the way of success, or how much real success the X series is having outside the core fanbase. Not much, is how much.

[dangerzone]

mint frog, on 14 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

To whom are you speaking?

[size=4]

So you agree with my original position that the MWO community isn't any different from any other gaming community, and therefore are going to side with me in opposition to those who will attempt to place blame on the community if MWO isn't a success in the long run.

Glad we could settle that.

Ya know, I really am starting to like you on these forums here. You understand that the community can make or break a game regardless of how well made content is.

For example, when this game launched, all the doomsayers traveled to matacritic and bombed the **** out of this game with {Scrap} reviews and distasteful insults and crude remarks and criticisms. They claim they want the MW game that THEY want and they CLAIM they want the game to succeed. Ironically, giving the game {Scrap} reviews in an attempt to show your anger towards PGI is in fact killing this game, because it will prevent new players from wanting to try the game due to the lackluster reviews and PGI needs new players, and some of which may pay for IGC to help keep the game alive.

So sure, these doomsayers can bad rep the game, but in the end, they are contradicting their own cause. As you said before, I too do not regret my Founders Package. I bought Overlord and about uhhh 200-400$ in MC and only did not buy the Sabre package because I recently got a newer car which means car payments.

I did not expect the game to be 100% exactly as their design pillars, because as soon as I read those outline notes, I realized they were so unbelievably strict and tightly written that there was no way the developers could hold to those "promises". I donated for Veteran as soon as I realized what that all really meant and later upgraded to Legendary.

I do believe the game has flaws, and they need to be addressed with. There are bugs that still exist since closed beta. Not good. The game is playable, enjoyable, and fun. The forums....not so much because of the natural toxicity that so many of these 40yo dudes QQ and such on the forums and turn into raging 12yo's like as if they just got shot on CoD or something.

In the end, I will support this game, and hopefully the doomsayers will find a better way to represent their dissatisfaction with the game in a way that does not harm PGI, MWO or its assets.

Edited by dangerzone, 14 October 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[POWR]

mint frog, on 14 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

To whom are you speaking?

[size=4]

So you agree with my original position that the MWO community isn't any different from any other gaming community, and therefore are going to side with me in opposition to those who will attempt to place blame on the community if MWO isn't a success in the long run.

Glad we could settle that.

Seeing as how one of your major points was that the community is being treated as noise, then I don't think you can complain about the toxicity of the community being to blame for any failure or success

Instead, I'd say that the direction MWO has taken over the past year has been good. Sure, there are now maybe 1 or 2 esoteric mechanics in play, but other than that we've only seen a push to make fighting less of an alpha spam and more of a measured use of weapons and a balancing act of which weapons to carry. Making a good build more challenging and in the long run making more mechs viable than whichever one could boat the most of whatever the community considered the hottest OP weapon this month. Maybe at uberhighskill or whatever, people still boat and alpha fight eachother, but the people I fight rarely seem to run cheeseboats.