1555 replies to this topic

[Warge]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

You think $5 million is anything but chump change in this context?

It all depends on BT's price and fan's will.
MW4 and MWO - are games far from BT if we compare them with MW:LL. Free license - it's only way to get good BT-game as I see it.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Imperial X, on 21 October 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

The Biggest problem with the forums *and the devs know it* is that when your happy with the state of a game, you usually don't come here. When your p*ssed off, you come here all the time. I won't say I'm different, I'm not. I do the same thing and I vent my displeasure on the forums. The fact that people speak out in the hopes of tanking this game however, is absurd. A few malcontents are not going to make this game fail because the vast majority of the player base doesn't even come here. So why they even try is beyond me.

I am not happy with some aspects of this game but I do not bother to post any criticism...You know I posted about BAP should be able to counter ECM 2 weeks after ECM was out...and we got it after 1/2 of year?Yeah thats the speed and I do not think they even read that thread(I was not OP but I was not alone suggesting it)...so I assume it is pointless.And BTW look how many things from feature suggestions are ingame besides those for MC?

Imperial X, on 21 October 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

The few times I have been extremely displeased with the state of this game, I have stopped playing. Once for almost 3 months. Everything gets better as time goes on. New problems surface and yes, sometimes we get patches or fixes that aren't as well thought out as they should be. It happens. PGI isn't Blizzard or CCP. Keep that in mind. They don't have the staff or the funding those companies do. They're doing what they can with the resources they have. Calling them incompetent is way over the line.

If they have not staff for such a things they should not promises like UI 2.0 4 weeks after launch party which is now gone and UI 2.0 is barely going to test server...

Imperial X, on 21 October 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

So many people who know absolutely nothing about coding keep complaining about why we don't have CW yet. I wonder if they even have the slightest idea about what it actually takes to create something like that without totally destroying what you already have ? Not to mention there is far more to making a feature to this or any game than coding.

Thats another thing.They do not want to give us access to modeling tools.They do not want to help us to model mechs and/or maps unless you want to work for them full-time job and move to Vancouver...no thx.

Imperial X, on 21 October 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I have my problems with this game, as I'm not happy with quite a few aspects of it at the moment. That doesn't mean I won't buy something. Without money from the players, if the game can still operate, it would take far longer to get things done. You can't run a company without money. I purchased the protector when it came out. I thought 80$ for overlord with the pheonix pack with a bit much but that was just my opinion. So I went with the 40$ pack. Money is a major keto the success of this game. The more we put into it, the more we'll get in return over the long run. The other key is constructive criticism. Ranting on the forums about how ghost heat sucks because you can't boat 4 AC/2s anymore isn't helping anything. Nor is the e rage that comes when the devs say they aren't changing it in the foreseeable future.

Its like a rollercoaster at the fair. Hang on because there are a lot of ups and downs. Jumping off half way through the ride isn't helping anyone.

Despite my problems with this game I bought overlord+saber and spent at least 15 $/month to this game and I hope they will make it better .

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 22 October 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[BlueVisionWarrior Online]

Warge, on 22 October 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

It all depends on BT's price and fan's will.
MW4 and MWO - are games far from BT if we compare them with MW:LL. Free license - it's only way to get good BT-game as I see it.

BT != MW

[Wintersdark]

Warge, on 22 October 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

That's the problem: u don't care...

I do care about the game, I just don't get all bent out of shape when people I'm badmouthing say things I don't like.

Quote

:DD

maybe you don't see the seriousness of this, but your approach - insulting the devs [I]garauntees[/] that they won't pay any attention to what you have to say. Being an *** just ensures that you can achieve nothing.

Quote

I'll gladly give money for project to buy rights form M$ and make BT-universe freeware... anyone with me?

That's not how it works.

You pay money to MS - a lot of money - to be able to use tat IP in a specific way. Nothing becomes freeware. See, even PGI? They can't make an android mechlab because their license only extends to Windows platforms.

And think you'd get Founders style backing to buy the right a, instead of license? Who's going to put money into that, without even the assurance that a game would happen let alone particular details.

[Warge]

BlueVisionWarrior Online, on 22 October 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

BT != MW

BT != MW:LL

[Rift Hawk]

Geek Verve, on 22 October 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Ghost heat and it's particular implementation doesn't bother me one bit. The concept makes sense. I'm no scientist, but I would guess there are principles of thermal dynamics that support the notion. At the very least, I can see it for what it is - a tool they have at their disposal to balance weapon systems.

As for making the rules known to us, I don't care about that, either. What's the big deal? Set your loadout and take it to the training grounds to see how it runs. If a particular weapon set runs hotter than you would like, try something else. Whether you understand why, isn't really all that relevant. We all have a pretty good idea of which weapons are hit hardest by it. The differences between them aren't great. If it changes later, adapt. This part isn't rocket science.

I'm as big a fan of the meta game as the next guy, but the whole uproar over ghost heat just strikes me as a bit unreasonable.

I agree that ghost heat bothers me not at all. The effect it has on my mech builds and my play style is minimal to none.

However, I don't agree that ghost heat makes sense. Do I think it should be removed ? No, I don't. It effectively did exactly what PGI wanted it to and what I wanted done. These days you see almost no Splat Cats, and very little boating at all. The problem is, mechs that are supposed to have multiple weapons of a specific type like the Awesome, have really suffered. It all goes back to the current hardpoint free for all. That is my major problem with the game. The hardpoint system. I have learned to deal with it though. It looks like everyone else is going to have to deal with ghost heat. It isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future and complaining about it is a waste of time.

Edited by Imperial X, 22 October 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[DirePhoenix]

Geek Verve, on 22 October 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Ghost heat and it's particular implementation doesn't bother me one bit. The concept makes sense. I'm no scientist, but I would guess there are principles of thermal dynamics that support the notion. At the very least, I can see it for what it is - a tool they have at their disposal to balance weapon systems.

Scientifically speaking, the heat mechanic for this game franchise has never made sense. Yes, the more rapidly you fire a weapon the hotter it will get. But only the weapon. In the real world, you need to remove heat because when stuff (metal) gets hot, electrical resistance increases and metal expands. This means wires don't carry electricity as well (electromagnetic motors can get all futzed up) and mechanical parts that are made of metal don't work well when hot. Guns jam and mechanical engines seize up if parts get too hot and expand greater than their clearances.

Heat is dissipated (or 'sunk') by putting cooling fins on the part that gets hot and increasing the surface area exposed to air (which is hopefully cooler than the object to be cooled), or some sort of internal medium cooling system like your car's radiator that takes heat from the engine, absorbs it into coolant, then transfers the heat from the coolant through your radiator grille and pumps the cool coolant back to your engine to remove more heat. Your car's radiator doesn't stop your radio or other electronics from overheating, hopefully they have their own method of heat dissipation.

In this franchise, they use heat sinks as some sort of radiator system to distribute heat away from all the various sources together, but that would only work if all the sources were connected together by some sort of medium like liquid or gas... but you can probably tell it wouldn't actually work to put coolant tubes strung out between all the various parts of the mech without getting them ruptured any time the mech moves or gets a limb or section blown off. A refrigerator works by pumping Freon through heat conductive tubes that absorb the heat from your refrigerated areas, transferring it to the Freon, and then transferring the heat absorbed by the Freon out through the radiator grilles in the back (or the bottom). That's not going to work very well if it has to go through moving components in a combat environment.

[Thanatos676]

Why try to apply logic to a video game?

[Hastur Azargo]

Since we have "coolant flush", it would be safe to assume that mechs are liquid-cooled, and unless you think there is a separate coolant circulation system between each cooled system times each heat sink, ghost heat should make sense, since making more systems generate heat at the same time would exponentially stress the shared system.

On top of that, ghost heat makes perfect sense to me. Not well documented? How much better than this do you expect it to be documented and where? In the game? Come on, game is in a state right now where a lot of internal info is missing for now, and it's a usual procedure to head out to forums or MWO wiki for answers. Actually, I don't remember a single serious complex game that didn't require this. Hard maths? Really? The maths in that thread should be easy for every highschooler.

Plus, what exactly is the real problem you guys have with it? Because across my now 87 mechs, I have exactly 3 builds affected by ghost heat, those that rely on trios of Large Lasers, and those builds are so packed with heatsinks that penalty is barely noticeable even before double-basics are in.

And who said GH penalizes boats? It merely forces you to somewhat space out your volleys, by measly 0,5 secs. No, sorry, you can't have a setup that deals 60 damage in a single click, and I like it.

You know what I thought when I saw GH plans for the first time? I thought "Gee, those 6xPPC and 6LL stalkers are gonna become slightly more manageable, if at least they have to fire a full volley over 1.5 secs. Not much, but hey, better than being one-shotted". Little did I know that PPC boats are run almost exclusively by cheesemasters powergamers, that would quit using it altogether once their one-click win setup is gone. I don't miss them. (Also, I'm sorry, I don't believe for even a fraction of a second that you care about newcomers. Eliminating GH would bring back into the game certain builds and their abuse by powergamers that would make newcomers run away from it a lot faster than slight bewilderment caused by seemingly high heat generated in a high-alpha build they decided to try).

GH penalizes stock builds? The wonderfully balanced stock builds from tabletop that are extremely viable in a much more accurately simulated environment of MWO? So much that PGI had to double the armor values on everything just to make the game playable? Oh, I'm sure you'd enjoy MWO without GH and with default armor values, where the said PPC boats would not be restricted by hardpoints or nerfed DHSs. I'm sure you'd enjoy being one-shotted in your Atlases. Thank God this is not that game.

And sure, we should kill MWO and resurrect MWLL, and then have the wonderful RAC5 slugfest ensue. Jesus, I imagine how many people would drown this forum in pure RAEG if anything remotely similar happened in MWO.

[Sigh] All of these people running into Starbucks, screaming that if Starbucks won't sell them the coffee they want, they won't be giving Starbucks their money. Doing so every day. For months.

I can't help but to draw similarities between what's happening here and the "carebears" that play EVE, a game with full-blown open-world PVP, and then come to the forums to complain about being ganked. Goons themselves make fun of them, and rightfully so. Why people keep complaining about the same things here over and over again is inconceivable to me.

I get it that you "care" about the game, but then maybe you have some of that care misplaced. Because it strongly seems to me that (maybe even unbeknownst to yourselves) you guys want PGI to make a game that's perfect for you, and you just can't get over the fact that they don't have to, just as you don't have to pay for it.

[Heffay]

Azargo, on 22 October 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Since we have "coolant flush", it would be safe to assume that mechs are liquid-cooled

This isn't true. The module could be a liquid reservoir that is dumped across the heat sinks to provide a one-shot rapid reduction in heat. If it was actually flushing coolant that it used to cool itself, the mech would run even hotter after the coolant flush, which doesn't happen.

Since it isn't specified, we are free to come to our own conclusions about how it works to ensure that it remains consistent with the game and the universe.

[Chronojam]

Geek Verve, on 22 October 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Ghost heat and it's particular implementation doesn't bother me one bit. The concept makes sense. I'm no scientist, but I would guess there are principles of thermal dynamics that support the notion. At the very least, I can see it for what it is - a tool they have at their disposal to balance weapon systems.

As for making the rules known to us, I don't care about that, either. What's the big deal? Set your loadout and take it to the training grounds to see how it runs. If a particular weapon set runs hotter than you would like, try something else. Whether you understand why, isn't really all that relevant. We all have a pretty good idea of which weapons are hit hardest by it. The differences between them aren't great. If it changes later, adapt. This part isn't rocket science.

I'm as big a fan of the meta game as the next guy, but the whole uproar over ghost heat just strikes me as a bit unreasonable.

I have a box of red matches. These are standard matches. When fully burned, each red match gives off 1 match worth of heat. Burning three red matches gives off three red matches worth of heat. If I burn five red matches, each match gives off 1.2 matches worth of heat and I end up with six matches worth of heat somehow.

I have a box of blue matches, they're a little hotter. When fully burned, each blue match gives off 2 matches worth of heat. Burning two blue matches gives off four matches worth of heat. But burning three blue matches makes all blue matches give off 2.5 heat, and I end up with 7.5 total heat instead of six.

I'm now going to burn two red matches (2 heat) and two blue matches (4 heat since they're twice as hot). 2+4 = 6. Suddenly, I end up with 8 heat instead of 6 heat. Wait, that doesn't seem to make any sense, does it?

It doesn't seem to make any sense because it doesn't make any sense.

It also doesn't make sense that all of these values -- the penalties, the thresholds -- change between versions without any way to find out. It also doesn't make sense because the people making the matches/weapons directly disagree with each other when asked about this odd behavior.

It also doesn't make sense because it makes balancing harder. It did not curb the 2PPC1Gauss it was ostensibly created to stop, and appears to be one more concept that's hard for players to understand and most damningly it's been hard for the developers to understand and explain. You can't use a tool you don't understand.

[Chronojam]

Thanatos676, on 22 October 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Why try to apply logic to a video game?

Games are built around clear rules and logic; it doesn't need to perfectly match the real world but there are certain expectations. This makes internal consistency and making those rules understood paramount, especially if you deviate from those expectations. It's okay if you tell me gravity is only half of what it should be, but if suddenly cannon fire drops four times as fast as they should then it's a problem.

RocketDog, on 22 October 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Not all modules seem to work in the TG, but otherwise it's fine for testing builds. AFAIK the heat model (which is the bit you really want to check) is identical between the online game and the TG.

Heat, perks, and weapon damage have all varied considerably and it should not be considered reliable until proven as such after each patch.

[Nekki Basara]

Imperial X, on 22 October 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

These days you see almost no Splat Cats, and very little boating at all.

Splatapults are gone because missile splash came out and damage was reduced, rendering them a silly one-trick pony that only pulled off the trick maybe 50% of the time. Boats were never really a thing, other than the large laser boats that existed solely to counter the 2PPC 1Gauss poptarts, unaffected by "the fix" for them. They were then further nerfed by desyncing the projectile speed and adding charging time to the Gauss.

So what is it that Ghost Heat achieved? Well AC2s now overheat when you fire one of them a bit too fast.

DirePhoenix, on 22 October 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

about heat sinks that are wrong.

You need to open your PC and take a look in there to see what it is that heat sinks actually do.

Edited by Nekki Basara, 22 October 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Hastur Azargo]

Heffay, on 22 October 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

This isn't true. The module could be a liquid reservoir that is dumped across the heat sinks to provide a one-shot rapid reduction in heat. If it was actually flushing coolant that it used to cool itself, the mech would run even hotter after the coolant flush, which doesn't happen.

Since it isn't specified, we are free to come to our own conclusions about how it works to ensure that it remains consistent with the game and the universe.

Ok, so your cooled reservoir is used to dump coolant onto heatsinks, while the mechs are not liquid-cooled? How are you then transporting the excess heat from weapons to the freely placed heatsinks? Wouldn't it make more sense if coolant flush drained some hot coolant from the system while injecting fresh cold coolant from a reservoir?

[Hastur Azargo]

Nekki Basara, on 22 October 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

large laser boats that existed solely to counter the 2PPC 1Gauss poptarts

So what is it that Ghost Heat achieved?

Please explain to me tactically how did any amount of large lasers on a mech counter poptarts that gave you very little time to shoot at them? Because from what I remember, large laser boats didn't have any sole purpose, but were just another variety of high-alpha cheese, never reluctant to chew upon anything not fast enough to avoid them.

Ghost Heat removed them, and the 4-6 PPC builds. That solved half the problem, while desync of PPCs and Gauss solved the other half.

[Nekki Basara]

They were the only thing that had the range to hit back other than more PPCs and Gauss, and the poptart arc was predictable enough that you could get a decent amount of damage onto the mech before it hit, so if you had any focus-fire ability at all you would generally hurt the poptart enough to make it possible for your lights to finish it. The previous "Rhino" style Stalker builds far out-damaged them up close but were rendered extinct by the advent of the Highlander.

4 PPC builds were moderately inconvenienced and are still alive and well. 6 PPC builds were always a joke build. If you regularly died to them then you are a terrible pilot.

[Chronojam]

That's about it. Ghost heat hurt brawling, and hurt the weapons that could reliably fire back at jittery jumpsnipers.

It also screwed the brawling builds that relied on massed lasers (four large pulse was already stupidly hot) or SRMs, and even hurt LRM boats that were honestly in a pretty good place. It also made the twin AC/20 build unsustainable.

Oh and it made any more than one AC\2 generate heat for no good reason.

[Heffay]

Azargo, on 22 October 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Ok, so your cooled reservoir is used to dump coolant onto heatsinks, while the mechs are not liquid-cooled? How are you then transporting the excess heat from weapons to the freely placed heatsinks? Wouldn't it make more sense if coolant flush drained some hot coolant from the system while injecting fresh cold coolant from a reservoir?

Conduction. Superconductors (which are also thermic superconductors strictly by definition) could provide a path for the heat from the weapon systems and engine to the heat sink.

It's kind of a moot point. It works because it works.

[DirePhoenix]

Nekki Basara, on 22 October 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

You need to open your PC and take a look in there to see what it is that heat sinks actually do.

There are 4 "heat sinks" in my PC. Each is attached to a single component, to cool that individual component. They are not grouped together to remove all the heat of the entire PC.

I have a processor heat sink that is a metal surface with cooling fins with a fan attached to it. It transfers heat away from the processor by conducting the heat through the metal and dissipating through through wider surface area of the fins to the surrounding air (a gas).

I have a power supply heat sink, attached to the power supply. It consists of a fan that circulates air (a gas) to transfer the heat from the power supply out of the computer.

I have a video card heat sink. It consists of a fan that circulates air (a gas) to transfer heat produced inside the video card's casing to outside of the video card.

I have a case heat sink. It consists of fans that circulates air (a gas) to transfer the heat absorbed by the air inside the case outside, and bring in fresh, cooler air inside the case.

If one heat sink fails, it fails for that component. The other components don't help spread the load from the others. If my power supply fan fails, my power supply is not cooled off. My video card fan does not add cooling to the power supply. The case fan may remove heat that is radiated into the case from the non-cooled power supply, but that's hardly cooling the power supply. The processor

The PC itself is not a moving component like a mech arm or leg. The heat sinks only affect the items they are attached to. If the PC case was a mech torso, with PC case "arms" and PC case "legs" attached to it, the components inside those arms and legs would not be cooled by the heat sinks in the torso. You can't just stick a fan on your dashboard and say it's cooling off your transmission.

If battlemechs were objects that existed IRL, and heat sinks mounted in the legs were supposed to cool off a weapon in the arm, they would have to be connected somehow from the legs to the arms in order to transfer heat from one location to the other. Tubes, pipes or hoses, filled with gas or liquid would have to carry the heat to the 'sinks' in the legs. Those tubes, pipes or hoses would very likely get ruptured, if not by combat, then by the 'mech's own movement. When they rupture, the gas or liquid filling those pipes, tubes, or hoses would leak out, and cease removing heat from anything they were connected to. And that's not even considering the leakage that may occur between joints (between the connections between lengths of tubes, pipes, or hoses) or through the pumping equipment used to push all that coolant media through your system. (hope you guys with liquid PC cooling systems have some natural circulation built in because if those pumps go, your system is useless) Of course, there's also the point that if a 'heat sink' is connected all the way from a left foot to a right hand, then the 'heat sink' is actually not in the left foot, even though that's where the heat is shunted out of the 'mech... it's all over the mech, which means any damage anywhere could damage that heat sink.

It would be much more efficient just to mount a cooling system on each component that takes care of that component's heat. Which just illustrates my point that the Battletech franchise's heat mechanic doesn't make scientific sense. It's fine as a balancing mechanic for a board game because otherwise everybody would be firing everything all the time, but when justifying "ghost heat" in a video game, it doesn't make sense because the entire heat mechanic doesn't make sense in the first place.

[Nekki Basara]

They're theoretically all connected directly to the power plant, because that's what's actually generating the heat via increased fusion to generate the necessary power for actually "doing stuff". That's why the cockpit gets hot when you fire guns in the arms. All you really need is a long conducive chain and it'll work, but if the radiator fins are damaged at the point at which they leave the thermodynamic system then you'll ****** up the dissipation. This is further backed up by hand-held weapons pods requiring the heat sinks to be built in, and not being able to run off chassis sinks.