49 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

RoboticRooster, on 18 August 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Whats really sad is that this isn't some rare fringe case, this happens to an enormous number of people who pick up MWO for the first time. It's why the 1 million accounts created milestone doesn't really mean anything. So many potential players pick the game up, see its a massive grind, quit. It's even worse now that cbills have been nerfed.

I was actually ready to quit after the same short period of time when I started, but I found a merc company and that kept me playing. Simply having a long grind is not enough to snare new players, or keep old players interested.

My MWO experience is my first and last time I'll ever actively participate in an F2P "kickstarter". I want games I can pay for...it helps keep out *some* of the riffraff and makes the developers beholden to paying customers.

[Desdain]

DeaconW, on 18 August 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

My MWO experience is my first and last time I'll ever actively participate in an F2P "kickstarter". I want games I can pay for...it helps keep out *some* of the riffraff and makes the developers beholden to paying customers.

I agree with what you're saying, but am not sure I'd categorize MWO as a 'kickstarter'. I didn't buy into the whole Founders thing. My experience with kickstarters is relatively recent. The games Star Citizen and (I think it's) Shadow of the Avatar(?) are what I consider to be 'kickstarter' games. Those games are being developed more in concert with the backers. MWO seems more like a traditional 'we build a game and you buy what we build' model. I've seen precious little evidence of community feedback being incorporated into the game. Note that I'm not talking about game balance. I don't really consider game balance to be material to this argument. I'm thinking about more fundamental gameplay elements like persistent world or meta-game. I've been playing MWO since November and while there is new content and some weapons/systems are changing, the fundamental gameplay hasn't really changed much at all due to feedback or otherwise.

I'd also like to add that I do hope they do something about their communications. The forums over these past 9 months have really gone from fairly enthusiastic to caustic (maybe I'm projecting a bit here...). I've seen this happen in a number of online games. It's never a good sign. I'm aware that most players are not forum posters, but I don't think it's been established that forum posters are not a representative sample of the players. My calculus tells me that it probably safer to assume it is more representative than not. When a player will spend more time on the forums arguing/pleading/complaining than he does actually playing the game it means at least 2 things.

1) The player cares enough about the game to post.
2) The player isn't having fun in the game.

That matters.

Edited by Desdain, 19 August 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Alex Warden]

my biggest gripes with MWO/ PGI are:

Assault Mode was promised to be a "placeholder mechanic for closed beta testing basic gameplay"... it is still one of 2 key gamemodes and imho the worse of the 2 (conquest is also pretty "uninspired" but at least you get abit more of dynamic fights sometimes)

they delivered some maps, and most of them have great potential...but what shall i say: they are empty...nothing that gives me a feel of a purpose to even drop there and start my mech... maps like alpine or terra therma would be great for adding some objectives to, like refineries, military assets, comstation you can fight over... if i ever get to develope a game, one of my PRIME concerns would be the actual gameplay... balance happens on the long run anyway, and i´d rather have 10 maps with dynamic gameplay and a more "immersive" feel to them,than 100 maps with the same static gameplay over and over again.

last but not least the drift towards a hollow arcade shooter that the game took since 01/2013. i was so happy on the first day of 12man groups, when some matches lasted way over 10 minutes, a few matches even expired the timer, ... appearing as the timer must be readjusted to 20 or even more minutes...because people at least TRIED to use the new tactial options that a full lance more offers

but what shall i say: that´s gone pretty fast, because zergrushing and capracing are the same, just with more mechs... the game CAN´T unfold it´s potentials, and simply because PGI still insists on the static gameplay and tells us nothing more but "Hey, we slowed down capture speed, that´s great stuff!!!" ...sorry, but lately i read nothing but bad excuses...

i already can see 90% of community warfare becoming a "planetary race contest" rather than epic battles for ownership of vital planets...
still love the game,for what i still HOPE it MAY become one day... but there has to change ALOT in the direction it is currently going.

Edited by Alex Warden, 19 August 2013 - 06:50 AM.

[Edson Drake]

The game gets lots of attention from the graphics and interesting Youtube videos.

I had personal friends approaching me about it, since they knew I play it and wanted to know more. I even omitted some of the grind facts to see if they could cope with it. They couldn't, and now it's worse.

Really PGI, you need to do something... fast.

[M0rpHeu5]

I totaly agree with the OP, I beleave that this game began the going down the hill after the cry engine update. Check how beatifull it used to look while being light with the PC (I used to run it in very hight settings but now i run it on low)

Also look at 1:27 how good the LRM use to look, Awesome

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 19 August 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[BFett]

Asmosis, on 18 August 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

agree with some of the stuff, disagree with a lot of it since its complaining about things that are getting released in a few weeks time.

Beta ends and game launches in a months time, most of that could have waited till then (if it still applies).

Also dont get why people continue to complain about nothing being done/no updates when theres generally pretty clear development plans in the updates. Do you want PGI to simply repost verbatum the same thing every 3 days just to reassure you they havent forgotten about it? because thats what a lot of the rants seem like.

Hi Asmosis,

The problem is that the game has been in beta for 2 years and since that time fixes have become slower and slower. Back in closed beta ballistics such as the AC20 and AC10 had noticeable ballistic arches that made using the weapons outside of their optimal range more challenging and required more skill. Lately, weapons feel less skilled based because AC20s can shoot accurately over 1000 meters and ghost heat is used to compensate for this accuracy.

I would like to see PGI taking the time to communicate the reasoning behind new features and also working with the xml files to fix simple issues instead of making entirely new systems that take time to program.

[Akkuflex]

MWO is failing since over a year, and I have to agree with the OP and most posters so far.
PGIs and Piranhas missteps were plenty and they accumulate in what we have now:

1. They proved to be too slow and/or undermanned to tackle the plans they had and had promissed

2. They were not competent enough to distinguish the important problems the game has and not competent enough to fix them in the first place. Proof are all the redundant and muddy mechanics they implemented to "fix" balance and loads of still useless modules, weapons and mechs/mech-variants. (matress, dragon, lbx and whatever is useless now, I haven't played actively in some months). And of course the new-player experiance and the few banal game modes.

3. They were not able to interact with their commiunity properly. They neither heard the commiunities valid complaints (but lets admit the "pink-glasses" are stronk in here) nor its ideas to fix problems. And we had great ideas for fixes and some very active idea makers. I can rememer Vass for exaple, whatever you may think of him.
We had great ideas for game modes and balance fixes like the hardpoint-system. But PGI ignored all of that and failed at fixing these problems on their own, either through lack of creativity or whatever, instead of accepting help.

4. Bad PR moves and monetisation. Bad communication of changes to the playerbase. Bait and switch everywhere, examples are the consumables which were said to never be implemented and you know how that went. Also the recent income death with the promisse that other income methods will be implemented soon. Then why the hell do they nerv income before they implemen the new income methods? This is own-playerbase PR suicide that causes more grind, premium time devaluation and even more player hemorrhage. Also there is that shop button that has been useless fr over a year. And 50$ virtual mechs, or a 25$ premium mech that's useless.

I feel sad that this franchise will suffer from MWOs failure, if it does, which atm is quite likely.
And finaly I feel sorry for the people at Piranha that were competent. Like the art design, they did a hell of a job and carried much of the hype for MWO while it still had some.

Edited by Akkuflex, 19 August 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Voivode]

I think PGI has seriously underestimated the importance of Maps and Game Modes in determining how users perceive a game. The maps they have are interesting, but there is not nearly enough maps and the variety of maps leaves something to be desired. Many maps are the same hugely open terrain with different textures. Where are the tight corridors of urban combat? Why are the game modes essentially objectiveless?

The OP stated this was like counterstrike in robots, in a way, yes. I believe it bears a strong resemblance to the battlegrounds (PvP instances) in WoW and its derivatives. That is an understandable place to start: with the MMO that made MMOs a game model. However, it isn't genuine to the Battletech and Mechwarrior universe. Copying the type of battlefields they have in a fantasy RPG doesn't really give you a sense of being in a massive war machine and working in a group to accomplish a mission.

The meta game reflects this. With no real objectives in the game modes and little variety in the maps, there's no reason not to run flavor of the month high alpha builds. If all you're doing is trying to kill the enemy in some white/brown/green colored sandbox, then why bother doing anything different?

Edited by Voivode, 19 August 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

"I just want the game they sold me last year."

[GoriKarafong]

Thank you very much for this post OP.

Sadly I am not sure how we as a community are able to make PGI understand our real problems and make them act accordingly. Personally I still love the Battletech/Mechwarrior franchise too much to let MWO down yet. I dont want to wait another 10 years hopeing for a great BT game.

We as a community should try an make PGI understand, even so it seems to be a very slow and frustrating process.

Best regards
Gori

[Corvus Antaka]

cbills are free. given the MMO F2P direction gaming has gone, and the setting of the Battletech Universe, PGI adopted a solid model.

Lets be real here - you can spend 30 bucks on this game and buy 10-20 mechbays and then fill those bays for free with mechs. Yeah, it may be grindy, but it is free.

PGI has to pay for servers, staff, rent, etc.

Yes, we all want to know - where is ui 2.0, where is CW. and yes, those things would be great to have in the future.

But after 10 years you can finally play mech again, and with the model PGI adopted you can do so for many many more years, with a lot of new content and features always coming in.

PGI has learned a lot in the past year. They stated the ui was a huge hurdle and redeveloping it has surely cost them tons of man hours.

But to complain over the price is ridiculous, if you consider the hours/days/years this game can live on and evolve the price is nothing compared to any other form of entertainment.

There is no grind if you spend decent cash, and 15 bucks a month is plenty to ditch the grind.

[Ridersofdoom]

the game is so boring that lately I just play with my stats, I forget once upon a time we had a game with turrets, missions, tanks and many details... was 13 years ago.

Edited by Ridersofdoom, 19 August 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[B0oN]

According to some people I chatted to earlier in the game MWO doesn´t need saving, except from whiners. Cease it then, guys, it´s all cool ^^

[BFett]

Rad Hanzo, on 19 August 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

According to some people I chatted to earlier in the game MWO doesn´t need saving, except from whiners. Cease it then, guys, it´s all cool ^^

Hi Rad Hanzo,

One or two years ago I would have agreed with you but now I really don't see how I can. This is the first Mech Warrior game in 10 years and people care enough to want it to succeed.

Since you think we are all complainers I'll list some things I think PGI did well with.

1) Mech weight classes matter (This is not Assault Mechs Online)
2) Jump sniping isn't dominant (Did you play Mech Warrior 4 multiplayer on MechMatch or MS Zone?)
3) Mechlab restricts builds but allows customization
4) Mech Design (by far the best I've ever seen although scaling may need tweaks)
5) Free to Play (If you don't want to buy something you don't have too) - 98% true
6) No Hud Bugs (How many months did it take for this to get fixed?)
7) A caring community (The fact that people care about the game is why it's still around) - Not really PGI's doing but still important.

Edited by BFett, 19 August 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[ColdHeat]

Great thread OP. I couldn't agree more with every word you've said.

Like many quoted before: MWO has turned out to be a Counter Strike with big robots. Nothing more. Extremely repetetive and without any depth beyond "go and kill everyone you see". Yet it could have been so much more with such a strong franchise. The C-Bill nerf is only worsening already existing problems by putting even more focus on dull grinding. As if we wouldn't already have had enough of that before.

MWO appears to me like a dying game before it already has gone live and left beta status. The major part of the community is already disillusioned, groups like #savemwo are trying desperately to give all they can to still make it the gaming experience everyone had hoped for while only encountering deaf ears from the dev side.

To be honest i don't believe the devs are convinced from the future of their product themselves. They keep up appearances but the extreme focus on money milking speaks otherwise. I mean: 3-6$ for a single paint alone... a purely cosmetic item. Uust what the hell?? I regret the time and money i have invested into MWO already. From a game i have invested more than into a AAA title, i would have expected more than "here you have some mechs and premium time, now please pay a lot more for even most basic customization as well and enjoy the grind".

The devs tried to copycat a lot of systems that works for these games since they were created for them but will never work for MWO. While World of Tanks for example is close to being very dull as well and having an absurd grind, every game still feels quite different because every tank feels very different. Something that is not the case in MWO. So if PGI really wanted to be inspired by other successfull games instead of coming up with something good by themselves, they at least should have taken some ideas from Star Citizen. Cloud Imperiums extremely good bond between community and developers, the sincerity & dedication that Chris Roberts eminates with every sentence he writes and the way the devs listen very careful to the wishes of the community. It's a "we want to achieve the same that you want to achieve" situation instead of a "we lure you with a franchise you love to milk the absolutely crap out of you". That's exactly the reason why i don't buy EA games anymore.

Edited by ColdHeat, 19 August 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Edson Drake]

Quote

Also look at 1:27 how good the LRM use to look, Awesome

Oh, I disagree. I think they look better now, but I still prefer straight forward launched missiles. However, the game itself looked much better. I want that look in the game, for God, what the hell happened to the graphics? Makes me kind of wish I was there at closed beta.

[VikingN1nja]

M0rpHeu5, on 19 August 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

I totaly agree with the OP, I beleave that this game began the going down the hill after the cry engine update. Check how beatifull it used to look while being light with the PC (I used to run it in very hight settings but now i run it on low)

Also look at 1:27 how good the LRM use to look, Awesome

So before cryengine what was it? and why was cryengine implemented?

Edited by omegaorgun, 19 August 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[Colin Thrase]

I must respectfully disagree. I think there are some valid points made in this thread, but the overall tone is much more negative than I think PGI deserves. I think the MWO forums have a negative feel in general, but that is consistent with every MMO I have played (My first MMO was World of Warcraft, so I've seen 9 years of consistently negative MMO forums in various games), so it doesn't really worry me when I see negative forum posts. What does worry me is that the developers read something like this and think it represents the majority of players. While this may represent the majority of forum posters, I think that's a clear distinction. Especially since I often read (both earlier in this thread and in other forum topics) something like "I stopped playing XX months ago and here's what I think is wrong". I can't find any statistics on total MWO players out there vs total Forum posters, but I'd be curious if anyone had that informaton handy. I often read the forums after playing the game a while, and I'll search for player names I saw that day, and rarely do I see any posts by them in the forums. It's almost as if the "players" and "posters" are an entirely separate community.

• I don't feel PGI has "killed off any of my good will" nor do I feel they "alienated their paying players". I have seen consistent additions (new mechs, new maps, new equipment) since I started playing about a year ago. I also see consistent enhancements (graphics improvements, HUD improvements, weapon effects, revised Thermal and Nightvision modes, etc). These are things people used to complain about in, and I see PGI adjusted the game accordingly.
  
• When I submit tickets to support@mwomercs.com, I get consistently quick and helpful responses. I have had to email the support addresses of other MMOs I have played over the years, and in some cases it took over a week to hear something back.
  
• "The constant and often drastic changes to gameplay" don't alarm me. The game is in open beta, so I anticipate (and expect) changes to be made. I will admit that I'm not always happy with change mechanism itself, but I understand they can't please everyone. People complained that Machine guns were worthless - now they are great for seeking crits. People complained about PPC boating - now they overheat if they do it. I'll grant that I'm not happy with the system they used to stop boating (heck, I didn't even have a problem with people boating. It was extremely easy to kill a 6x PPC stalker so I didn't consider them to be a problem). People complained the maps were too small, then we got Alpine Peaks and people complained the map was too big.
  
• "MWO has one of the worst new player experiences of any online game at the moment". I don't think the new player experience is very good either, but I can't authoritatively comment on whether it's the worst because I haven't played every online game out there. I'd like to think they'll add some kind of narrated introduction to the Battletech universe with a short history lesson (to help players choose a faction) and a more interactive tutorial, rather than a Youtube video and an empty map to play around in. However, I'll wait to see whether this is provided in the official launch before complaining about the lack during beta.
  
• "The devs have done very little to reward longtime players or at least allay their concerns about the game and the direction it has taken since launch". I'm not sure I count as long term, having played just under a year at this point, but I don't feel that I should be entitled to a reward for my length of playtime, nor do they owe me any explanation regarding my concerns about the direction the game has taken. My reward is the many hours I've spent playing and enjoying the game thus far, and the mechs I have earned and improved through XP along the way.
  
• "The poor communication and poor management of expectations and the situation looks pretty bad from their perspective". I'm happy with the level of communication - both under 'Latest News' on the front page of www.mwomercs.com and in occasional PGI posts in the forums. I'm pleasantly surprised when they offered contests (xxx vs the world events) even though the game is still in beta. As far as my expectations - I'm looking forward to community warfare as described in some of their earlier posts. I'm disappointed it's not implemented yet, but they haven't announced that they're cancelling it so I don't have any reason to be upset yet (the feeling is like hoping your portfolio recovers after the economy tanked. I'd like to think it will bounce back at some point, but I'm not going to stop investing because the market hasn't improved all that much yet). I'd like to think they're holding back on community warfare because they want all players to have level playing field to start from when the game is officially launched (let's face it, all of us beta players have an advantage over the guys who start on launch date because we've accumulated XP and C-Bills that PGI has told us they won't reset).
  
• "For players, I think the lesson here would be not to over-commit both time and money until..." I sure hope nobody has over-committed their time or money in this game, nor any other game out there. I've seen articles in the past of MMO players losing jobs, spouses, friends or just the respect of others because they play a game too much. I think I have spent roughly $300 so far on this game. I consider it a fair investment to help the game progress, since I was already a fan of the franchise and hope to see them successful. Unless someone out there is dropping thousands into this game or destroyed a personal relationship, I don't believe any of us have "over-committed" to the game, so implying that any of us have over-committed sounds like a demeaning statement. Anyone who isn't satisfied with the return on investment can walk away without feeling upset about the money spent - they at least got to enjoy it in the 'good old days' of closed beta, if they think the earlier form of the game was better.
  
• "Since then, I've felt extremely letdown by the game's development and also somewhat embarrassed because my recommendation turned out to be a rather poor one". I still recommend the game to friends and acquaintances. I'm not embarrassed about it. I do make it clear that it's a work in progress, but that I think it has potential if they continue to improve over time. Some have liked it, and some haven't. The same goes when I recommend books, movies, restaurants. You can't please everyone so don't expect to.

I just read what I wrote, and I hope this doesn't come of as a personal attack - it's intended more as a commentary on all of the negative posts I've seen recently, and not any one player specifically. As I said above, there are some valid points made...

• "implementing arbitrary and confusing rules simply muddy up the gameplay experience". I don't like the "ghost heat" from multiple weapons either. I'm in favor of scrapping it. I think the CT damage penalty when you overheat if fine, without adding ghost heat to make it worse. I also think boating a single weapon type is to be expected (Behemoth, Masakari, Jenner, etc) - it's only a problem if every mech is boating and you have no variety on the field.
  
• "Improve your new player experience - Improving the new player experience needs to come up higher on the list of priorities". I'd be in favor of letting each new player choose a mech from the trial mechs after their first 10 games, in addition to the cash they earned so far. Their first camo job should probably be free too, since that's what makes them distinct from others (and most MMOs allow you to customize your appearance before playing - I think that helps the appeal).
  
• "recent additions like the XP bonus etc help" - yes, I agree. I actually play most of my mechs now, instead of just my favorite 3 or 4.

Sorry to cut this short but I've been writing too long and want to get back to playing the game.


CT

Edited by Colin Thrase, 19 August 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[POWR]

RoboticRooster, on 18 August 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

On the subject of new user experience. Last night I played a few matches with a guy new to the game. He had come from the days of mechwarrior 3, and had just heard of the existence of MWO. After I played a couple matches with him and a couple of other vets, he became less and less enthusiastic. He hated the grind, hated the incredibly complicated ghost heat system, Hated the TERRIBLE Trial mechs, and the fact that he had to grind through 25+,matches before he could buy a single mech to customize. After my group had played about 8 or so matches, he left, saying thanks for helping him out but he really didn't enjoy the game.

Which makes me very sad.

Weird. I played with a friend who'd never played anything and he could afford a good startup mech, Centurion 9A, after less than 10 rounds, including customized loadout.

Maybe if you don't enjoy playing the game at all, as in, you're some kind of weirdo who thinks not of what he's playing at the moment, but what he thinks he might play in the future, without taking any enjoyment in learning, or shooting stuff, or the challenge of using certain pieces of equipment to fight. Well, I guess games with any kind of progression are just not for him. Just go play the games that offer everything unlocked from the start and leave it at that? Your post isn't indicative of anything other than the fact that this game is not for everyone. Which can be said of every game.

omegaorgun, on 19 August 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

So before cryengine what was it? and why was cryengine implemented?

The game always ran on Cryengine. And it runs pretty much at the exact same framerate now as it did in closed beta. ~60. At max. At 2560x1440.

Also the game looks a lot worse in that video than it does now.

Edited by POWR, 20 August 2013 - 12:57 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

RoboticRooster, on 18 August 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

On the subject of new user experience. Last night I played a few matches with a guy new to the game. He had come from the days of mechwarrior 3, and had just heard of the existence of MWO. After I played a couple matches with him and a couple of other vets, he became less and less enthusiastic. He hated the grind, hated the incredibly complicated ghost heat system, Hated the TERRIBLE Trial mechs, and the fact that he had to grind through 25+,matches before he could buy a single mech to customize. After my group had played about 8 or so matches, he left, saying thanks for helping him out but he really didn't enjoy the game.

Which makes me very sad.

This is kinda sad. The fact he had to buy every previous title for 60 bucks didnt factor into his choice to leave here from the grind that he got to play for free? kind of strange...

still trial mechs blow goats. it would be nice if every new player just got a free commando they could customize, or maybe a flea

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 20 August 2013 - 01:22 AM.