78 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Yeah, that's right.

After six months of experimenting and spending tens of millions of C-bills on XL engines, I have come to the realisation that STD engines are better anyway. My Awesome, my Cataphracts, my Catapults, my Centurions, even two of my Ravens, they all have STD engines now.

I used to think that XL engines were better because the speed is so important in this game. But now I've realised that it's better to have a few less guns and a lot extra survivability. At least for my playing style.

I just dusted off my old Yen Lo Wang, which I haven't used for ages. Swapped the XL engine for a STD engine, replaced the ER Laser with a couple of medium lasers and voilá!

I know these stats aren't very impressive for you guys, but for me this pretty good when I'm just PUGing. It's a step in the right direction, anyway

For a while my Win-Loss ratio and KDR was stagnating and even dropping a bit, but after I've switched to STD engines, it's been climbing fast.

Thank you, STD engine.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 05 May 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[151st Light Horse Regiment]

wang. lol.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 05 May 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Yeah, that's right.

After six months of experimenting and spending tens of millions of C-bills on XL engines, I have come to the realisation that STD engines are better anyway. My Awesome, my Cataphracts, my Catapults, my Centurions, even two of my Ravens, they all have STD engines now.

I used to think that XL engines were better because the speed is so important in this game. But now I've realised that it's better to have a few less guns and a lot extra survivability. At least for my playing style.

I just dusted off my old Yen Lo Wang, which I haven't used for ages. Swapped the XL engine for a STD engine, replaced the ER Laser with a couple of medium lasers and voilá!

I know these stats aren't very impressive for you guys, but for me this pretty good when I'm just PUGing. It's a step in the right direction, anyway

For a while my Win-Loss ratio and KDR was stagnating and even dropping a bit, but after I've switched to STD engines, it's been climbing fast.

Thank you, STD engine.

For me, the opposite is often quite true. I find that extra 10-15 kph is often the difference between getting swarmed, and being able to control the engagement. It does make me potentially more vulnerable, but so does being exposed to enemy fire longer. It's that trade off, and some of my mechs, like my Founders Atlas, you are NEVER going to be fast or manueverable ANYHOW, so why not go Standard? Then you can Zombie better. But my Highlanders and Jagers pretty much feature XLs, because for my style of fighting, which requires high pinpoint damage and flanking, that speed is life.

As you said, it really boils down to one's fighting style. Even in Heavies and Assaults, I think like a Centy pilot, always looking to come at the opponent from the flank or rear, hitting, then rabbiting for the next shot of opportunity.

[Hauser]

It's because of HSR. Before HSR speed would safe your life because it increased the distance between where you would be on screen and on the server. Making it harder to hit you. Right now that advantage is taken away and people can actually hit you.

I still find the speed useful though. For Catapults and Jagers half of the game is maintaining a position where you're not getting shot at and running to get the angles you need.

[Juodvarnis]

It kind of depends on what mech you're using. If you're using a mech with a horribly oversized CT (Cicada, Jenner, Dragon,), then you're better off using XL engines.

[Escef]

On a light, XLs are generally worth it. The extra speed buys you survivability. On mediums, questionable, you have to go pretty fast to make a difference. Heavy and up? Avoid. Like. The. Plague.

[Alistair Winter]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

For me, the opposite is often quite true. I find that extra 10-15 kph is often the difference between getting swarmed, and being able to control the engagement.

Ah yes, but my point is, I'm not sacrificing speed, I'm sacrificing firepower. For example, my Raven 2X has a STD 240 with 2 LLs, TAG and SRM2. The speed difference between a STD 240 and an XL 245 is negligible. I would definitely do more damage if I had more heatsinks and an SRM6 with Artemis, but now I can lose my LA and LT and just keep trucking.

Bishop Steiner, on 05 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

It does make me potentially more vulnerable, but so does being exposed to enemy fire longer. It's that trade off, and some of my mechs, like my Founders Atlas, you are NEVER going to be fast or manueverable ANYHOW, so why not go Standard? Then you can Zombie better.

I agree, but I'm always surprised by how many people put XL engines in their assault mechs, just to get extra firepower. Even Atlai.

Bishop Steiner, on 05 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

But my Highlanders and Jagers pretty much feature XLs, because for my style of fighting, which requires high pinpoint damage and flanking, that speed is life.

I definitely agree that the Jager is almost forced to use XL engines, but I'm surprised that you put an XL in a Highlander, because I always aim at their side torso. If you take away the RT of a Highlander, most of them are left with a few Streaks or nothing at all. I guess if you're poptarting, you're gambling on the fact that the enemy is never going to get near enough for a brawl, but I always count my lucky stars when I encounter an assault mech with XL engine
If they didn't already put a PPC hole through my cockpit.

Hauser, on 05 May 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

It's because of HSR. Before HSR speed would safe your life because it increased the distance between where you would be on screen and on the server. Making it harder to hit you. Right now that advantage is taken away and people can actually hit you.
I still find the speed useful though. For Catapults and Jagers half of the game is maintaining a position where you're not getting shot at and running to get the angles you need.

First of all, I love your sig.
Second, I also find the speed useful. For my K2 Catapult, I use a STD 300 engine and 4 large lasers. 315 is the maximum engine size. For my 1X Cataphract I use a STD335 engine, and 340 is the maximum. I'm all about speed. I just can't handle the fragile engine.

[MuonNeutrino]

I tend to fall on the side of standard engines usually, but really it depends *very* strongly on the mech in question and its intended role. More or less, an XL buys you either speed or weapons payload at the cost of some survivability. It all comes down to whether the benefits outweigh the tradeoffs.

For example, I am a big fan of standard engines on assault mechs. XL engines can sometimes add enough speed that the difficulty of hitting or focusing fire negates the survivability loss, but assaults are too big and can't gain enough speed for that to really come into play. And they're just too big of targets. Atlases, stalkers, awesomes, highlanders - all of them have quite easy to hit side torsos. And a skillfully piloted assault mech can survive a surprisingly long time, and remain a surprisingly large threat, even with half the mech gone. Especially given that assaults are *also* often crit-slot limited, I'd rather have a still-alive half of an assault mech than a dead assault that didn't really get a chance to bring its larger payload to bear. (I will admit that this isn't a very good argument for poptarting highlanders, but those are incredibly stupid mechs that I refuse to drive anyway, so they're not relevant.)

Light mechs, on the other hand, almost always need XL engines. Speed is their biggest strategic asset for scouting/capping bases/etc, and they're also small enough targets and can get moving fast enough for speed to become a very strong *tactical* asset as well - frankly, an XL engine light mech is probably *more* survivable than a standard engine one, just because it's so much harder to hit. It also lets them have that speed while still carrying enough weapons to make them a credible threat on the battlefield.

Mediums and heavies are a case-by-case thing. Trebs, for example, are OK with XLs, I think, simply because they can actually mount big enough ones to get moving at a good clip, and cicadas are just overgrown jenners anyway. I wouldn't ever put an XL on a cent or hunch, though. Dragons and catapults can almost always get away with it thanks to their torso designs, but it's much iffier on phracts and jagers in my opinion, with their broad and easy-to-hit torsos.

[Devin Takkar]

Alistair Winter, on 05 May 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

I definitely agree that the Jager is almost forced to use XL engines, but I'm surprised that you put an XL in a Highlander, because I always aim at their side torso. If you take away the RT of a Highlander, most of them are left with a few Streaks or nothing at all. I guess if you're poptarting, you're gambling on the fact that the enemy is never going to get near enough for a brawl, but I always count my lucky stars when I encounter an assault mech with XL engine
If they didn't already put a PPC hole through my cockpit.

That's actually the reason to use an XL in a Highlander. With most builds you're completely useless If you lose your side torso (because you need LRM&SRM for a balanced highlanderbuild). So instead of running around as a damage sponge, most people just build a glass canon.
But...thanks to your post I'm redesigning one of my Highlanders atm around the highest possible standard engine and it seems as if I'm only losing range, not firepower by doing that.
Now I just need some enemies to brawl with...

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 05 May 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Ah yes, but my point is, I'm not sacrificing speed, I'm sacrificing firepower. For example, my Raven 2X has a STD 240 with 2 LLs, TAG and SRM2. The speed difference between a STD 240 and an XL 245 is negligible. I would definitely do more damage if I had more heatsinks and an SRM6 with Artemis, but now I can lose my LA and LT and just keep trucking.


I agree, but I'm always surprised by how many people put XL engines in their assault mechs, just to get extra firepower. Even Atlai.


I definitely agree that the Jager is almost forced to use XL engines, but I'm surprised that you put an XL in a Highlander, because I always aim at their side torso. If you take away the RT of a Highlander, most of them are left with a few Streaks or nothing at all. I guess if you're poptarting, you're gambling on the fact that the enemy is never going to get near enough for a brawl, but I always count my lucky stars when I encounter an assault mech with XL engine
If they didn't already put a PPC hole through my cockpit.


First of all, I love your sig.
Second, I also find the speed useful. For my K2 Catapult, I use a STD 300 engine and 4 large lasers. 315 is the maximum engine size. For my 1X Cataphract I use a STD335 engine, and 340 is the maximum. I'm all about speed. I just can't handle the fragile engine.

I almost never get side cored, and even when I do, It's usually after laying out 500+ damage. Being able to pull 64 kph in my Hihglander, AND still lay out some hurt, works for me.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 May 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

I almost never get side cored, and even when I do, It's usually after laying out 500+ damage. Being able to pull 64 kph in my Hihglander, AND still lay out some hurt, works for me.

What do you run on yours?

These are mine:
HGN-733P
HGN-733
HGN-733C

[ReissTC]

XL engines, in my opinion, aren't better or worse than standards. All depends on the mech and role.

I always put an XL in a light mech and Cicadas; they're too squishy to rely on durability to begin with, so need to go fast. XL engines afford them the speed with minimal compromises.

Inversely, I never put XL engines in assaults (admittedly, I've only ever had a Stalker and an Atlas). They rely on sheer durability. They are never, ever fast, and I often find critical space is the limiting factor, rather than tonnage.

Everything in between depends entirely on the mech (and its hitboxes) and its role. Generally, if my mech is primarily a long ranged config, it's getting an XL engine. Small side torsos? XL engine. Trebuchets, Catapults, Dragons - all of these I'll shove an XL in. Configs designed for closer ranges or brawling, or mechs that have broad side torsos, I'll avoid using the XL engine.

[Alistair Winter]

MuonNeutrino, on 05 May 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Mediums and heavies are a case-by-case thing. Trebs, for example, are OK with XLs, I think, simply because they can actually mount big enough ones to get moving at a good clip, and cicadas are just overgrown jenners anyway. I wouldn't ever put an XL on a cent or hunch, though. Dragons and catapults can almost always get away with it thanks to their torso designs, but it's much iffier on phracts and jagers in my opinion, with their broad and easy-to-hit torsos.

I agree with most of your post, except that I find Trebs to have far too big torsos and far too little armor to be running around with XL engines, unless you're an LRM boat or poptarter. Dragons I haven't played much, and the Catapult K2 I've only just started to play with STD engine, so the jury is still out, but it does feel a lot safer.

Of course, it depends on how you play, and with my Catapult K2 I'm constantly getting myself in trouble due to the fact that it's so damned fast. Every match I play, this happens:
"Oh look, a nearly dead mech hiding behind the enemy team. I bet I could just sneak over there and kill him inconspicuouly..."

Devin Takkar, on 05 May 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

That's actually the reason to use an XL in a Highlander. With most builds you're completely useless If you lose your side torso (because you need LRM&SRM for a balanced highlanderbuild). So instead of running around as a damage sponge, most people just build a glass canon.
But...thanks to your post I'm redesigning one of my Highlanders atm around the highest possible standard engine and it seems as if I'm only losing range, not firepower by doing that.
Now I just need some enemies to brawl with...

Looking forward to hearing how that turns out!
The thing about having all your weapon on one side is... you're basically just a big Yen Lo Wang Whether you're carrying 3 ER PPCs or a rich variety of weapons, it's always nice to have a shield side with an expendable side torso. So if your ER PPCs are running a bit hot in a brawl, just moonwalk sideways for a while and then blast 'em. Granted, a Highlander can't torso twist as well a a Centurion, but I've still seen good pilots pull it off.

JohanssenJr, on 05 May 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

What do you run on yours?
These are mine:
HGN-733P
HGN-733
HGN-733C

The 733 and 733C are pretty close to my Highlanders, except my 733 has STD300, LB10, 2 Mlas, 3 SRM6, 1 SRM4 and Artemis.
My 733C is basically same as yours, but STD 300 and 2 x UAC5 instead of AC20.
I know you didn't ask me, but there you go

[Bishop Steiner]

JohanssenJr, on 05 May 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

What do you run on yours?

These are mine:
HGN-733P
HGN-733
HGN-733C

Don't have any in Smurfy.
Basic 733P is:
325XL
3/3 Jump
558/558 Armor
19 DHS
2 ER PPC
2 Medium Laser
3 SRM6 w/ 4-5 tons ammo

733C "Primary"
280XL
3/4 JJ
542/558 Armor
DHS
2 UAC5
1 ER PPC
3 SRM6

733C "MUGGER"

280XL
3/4 JJ
542/558 Armor
16 DHS
1 AC/20
2 ER PPC
3 SSRM2

[Escef]

Alistair Winter, on 05 May 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

... and the Catapult K2 I've only just started to play with STD engine, so the jury is still out, but it does feel a lot safer.

I've found with a K2 that I lose torso mounted ACs long before the arm mounted lasers go silent. Perhaps this is because I run lasers in the arms, do the longer PPC barrels absorb shots from the side better?

Edited by Escef, 05 May 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Escef, on 05 May 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

I've found with a K2 that I lose torso mounted ACs long before the arm mounted lasers go silent. Perhaps this is because I run lasers in the arms, do the longer PPC barrels absorb shots from the side better?

I tend to lose my torso mounted lasers before my arm mounted lasers, but that's usually because people are aiming at my CT, so they strip the side torso (which has less armor, naturally) and damage the internals. No one ever aims at the arms, so they never lose their weapons

Edited by Alistair Winter, 05 May 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[FrostCollar]

When I die in a light, 99% of the time it's because I lost my CT or both legs. For the way I play, XL's a straight upgrade.

The heavier and larger the mech gets though, the less the advantages become. However, I definitely wouldn't put a standard on everything as you suggest.

[Deathlike]

A little known fact is that if you're legged while using an XL engine, you are "running"/walking @ 12.5% of normal speed for like 5 seconds before you can walk @ half speed as defined by the game. You will revert back to 12.5% speed when taking damage while legged.

Anyways, an XL engine is usable on a Cent, but you have to be mindful at spreading the damage around. With the YLW, it may be easier for some people to shoot off the RT instead of the RA... and therefore the XL engine would generally be counterproductive in this example.

If you can get away with spreading damage to other parts of the mech w/o making the torsos seem attractive... you can get away with it on a bigger mech.

[FrostCollar]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

A little known fact is that if you're legged while using an XL engine, you are "running"/walking @ 12.5% of normal speed for like 5 seconds before you can walk @ half speed as defined by the game. You will revert back to 12.5% speed when taking damage while legged.

Absolutely, but if you're in a light even 50% is a death sentence. Usually... I've actually been able to win and survive a few games on one leg in an XL light (or 'cada), but that depends entirely on killing the person who legged you before they can finish the job. Luckily, many people get sloppy when they think a kill is close and don't attempt to dodge as much as they should.

[GODzillaGSPB]

I believe there is a sweet-spot for xl-engines. Lights can use them when they're quick enough but are already good with standards. Mediums should not use xl-engines because they are as easy to hit as most heavies but lack their armor. And assaults should not get xl-engines because they are most easy to hit and xl does not make them fast enough plus steals space, which is most important to them.

So...heavies. But even among them there are good ones and bad ones when it comes to xl-engines. For instance the Jagermech with it's big side-torsos (those "shields" are part of it, which is just stupid) and with the weapons concentrated in the arms. Everyone is either shooting for the arms or the center and both ways offer a high chance to hit the sidetorsos jsut by accident. People don't even have to target them by intent.

The one heavy that really worked with the XL was the Dragon. Worked brilliantly! It has a huge CT, so most shots aimed for the sidetorsos end up on the CT...the part of the mech that is best armored. So yeah, my Dragon mostly dies by CT...and it would die jsut the same way if it had a standard engine. And that's why it works. ^^

151st Light Horse Regiment, on 05 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

wang. lol.

Yen-Lo-Wang. 33 matches. 25 wins, 8 losses. 42 kills, 10 deaths. Yeah...lol indeed. It's my best mech by far.

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 05 May 2013 - 12:17 PM.