81 replies to this topic

[Captain Midnight]

This is the system present in mechwarrior 4, and I for one am not really that bothered by it but I know a lot of people say they don't want it. Well is the phantom heat system really better? Phantom heat seems to me to just be a complicated way of implementing a hardpoint system (really more of a weapon limit system actually). You never see anyone going beyond the weapon caps established because teh phantom heat is too crippling, you only ever see people going for the precise limit. Instead of 4 PPCs we see 2 PPCs and a Gauss if that's how you want to play...

Should we just convert to a hardpoint system so that way at least a new player can see, simply, what the deal is? Phantom heat ruins trial mechs too like the awesome with 3 PPCs is now going to be infamously the worst stock mech ever under the current settings.

A hardpoint system can also be used to adjust balance between chassis, for example maybe an awesome CAN use three PPCs in a real game, unlike now where every chassis has identical limitations.

[hashinshin]

Phantom heat is extremely poorly implemented for one reason:

There's no way to see in game what it is. If I was a new player to mechwarrior I'd probably go "I should add as many PPCs as I can to my mech!" and then I'd overheat and kill myself and have no idea why.

[Eddrick]

I prefer the Hard Point Size Limitation from MechWarrior 4. It's easier to deal with and much less likely to change. Furthermore, you can tell it in game. Instead, of needing to come to the forums or experiment in the Mech Lab and Training Grounds. Which, can be very costly. Because, we have to "try before you buy" option.

Edited by Eddrick, 16 August 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[GingerBang]

My beef with phantom heat, is that it just doesn't make any sense. if the numbers aren't already 100% arbitrary, no newb is going to know what is wrong.

Another issue is the mech size is DIRECTLY related to phantom heat, and PGI's 100% inability to program anything dynamic, in favor of broad sweeping bandaids. So, the reason some of these mechs are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tall, is because they are "mostly empty space" (IE missile bays) what exactly is holding all this ghost heat? Even PGI cannot follow their own system. Their designs directly conflict with each other. 0 foresight. 0 planning. 0 talent.

[Team Leader]

Oh my gosh yes please I would take size limits over this convoluted BS 10/10 times. Plus it would give variants that are currently "inferior" a purpose. Eg the hunchie being the only medium that can carry an AC20.

[Monky]

Hardpoint size can be a good limiter but it has to be really carefully done. given the half hazard heat limitation they opted for I don't think they have the resources to pull it off.

[Khobai]

hardpoint limitations are better, does the same thing ghost heat attempts to, and better yet it can be custom tailored to each mech to give that mech strengths/weaknesses.

For example an Awesome could have three PPCs (3x3 slots) but a Stalker could only have five large lasers.(5x2 slots)

The problem with this type of hardpoint system though is that its going to be really confusing unless you also get rid of crit slots like MW4 did.

Edited by Khobai, 16 August 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[Monky]

You can keep crit slots using the GUI already in place for setting up equipment/items, however it would need to be modified to allow a 'hardpoint' to become smaller if say, a heatsink takes up a spot that the hard point could use.

Say, you have a 10 Crit slot arm with 2 ballistics hardpoints, both at 5 crits maximum. Say you added 2 AC5's, and have 2 slots left over - the hardpoints should shrink-wrap to the weapon, freeing up the 2 remaining crits. Vice Versa, if you add in, say, a heatsink or a ton of ammo, one of the slots should shrink. A +/- hardpoint size button with a limite for each hardpoint would let you custom tool it so you could do this manually, to support different setups. An easier method might be to have it have floating crit spaces in the same way endo/ferro work, 10 slots in an arm, neither can be greater than 5 in this example, but if you add in 2 DHS, you can 'expand' one of them into an AC5 holding spot.

Either way, it is workable, but would have to be carefully and thoroughly done to ensure variants are kept up to par.

[FupDup]

Team Leader, on 16 August 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Oh my gosh yes please I would take size limits over this convoluted BS 10/10 times. Plus it would give variants that are currently "inferior" a purpose. Eg the hunchie being the only medium that can carry an AC20.

Don't forget the Wang!

[Corvus Antaka]

phantom heat?

Phantom may refer to:

• Ghost, in traditional belief, a physical manifestation of the soul or spirit of a deceased person
  
• Illusion, a distortion of the senses

[ObsidianSpectre]

I don't mind the idea of hard point limitations ala MW4, but I think it's too late for that to be a reasonable solution. I don't see how they can throw something like that in the game at this point even if they wanted to.

You're basically proposing that each weapon hardpoint has a maximum number of usable crit-slots associated with it, and not a literal change to the MW4 system, correct?

[OneEyed Jack]

Because those 2 idiotic options are the only viable alternatives? Way unbiased poll ya got there.

[Sybreed]

bah, PGI will never admit they missed an opportunity with the game by not going with hardpoint crits and now balance has been messed up for 6 months because of it.

[Monky]

An even simpler version of what I posted above:

Simply have it so each hardpoint can support a maximum amount of crits.

Drop 2 AC2's into an the same example arm above with 10 crits, 2 five slot ballistic hardpoints, and you have exactly filled the hard points with the crits still available. Simply define how big each hard point can be, and there's no need for any fancy re-coding of the GUI.

[Roland]

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Xanquil]

I can't use your poll do to the fact that all 3 answers to the last question are bad. I just don't like the "would you rather" stile of questions. (http://www.rrrather.com/.)

[Ralgas]

The only issues i have with hardpoint restriction is the limits it does place on variety and the fact that at the top end (and i'm not there by any stretch of the imagination) the number of "alpha chassis" will drop to a few variants, as opposed to being "whichever chassis have that combo of hardpoints". People laugh when you say awesomes will become op, but then right now they aren't out ranging you and dishing out double what you can throw back in most other chassis........ wouldn't take long for "it's become boxwarrior sniper online!!"

On the 1st point, right now i'm running warhammer variants (- the slas/mg's) on my quickdraw. I am really looking forward to some MAD builds on the orion (when they get to it). A hard point restriction system squashes that, just as effectively as it does it's aim. Jagger ac/40's wouldn't be possible but what about the jm6-DG? (a dual gauss variant that is cannon)

The only issue with ghost heat is it's clunky and convoluted, fix that (it is possible) and it'll do fine. As for new players, we need the tutorial with ui 2.0 sooner rather than later for sure. But if they can't actually play with whats wrong and figure it out before they quit, or come and look it up, they need to go back to gamer school.

[MustrumRidcully]

Both ideas are bad balancing tools.

The heat scale system is completely arbitrary and needlessly complicated, nerfs builds that didn'T need a nerf, and doesn't address all the problematic builds either. For such a complex system I'd expect a lot better from it.

Hard points as limitaiton are okay to preserve the identity of a mech on the battlefield, but don't believe that they actually serve to balance. Mechwarrior IV allowed plenty of boating, and I am not even sure how well it was used to replicate stock mechs. But if you actually take stock mech configs, you'll find too many boatable mechs in the TT. (More precisely, pretty much any assault boat will automatically become an issue.) You could just not ever add these to the game, but I'd rather have them part of the game and not broken.

OneEyed Jack, on 16 August 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Because those 2 idiotic options are the only viable alternatives? Way unbiased poll ya got there.

I think we have a choice between cholera, the flu, and ice cream, but this thread only deals with cholera and flu.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 17 August 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[Erata]

hashinshin, on 16 August 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Phantom heat is extremely poorly implemented for one reason:

There's no way to see in game what it is. If I was a new player to mechwarrior I'd probably go "I should add as many PPCs as I can to my mech!" and then I'd overheat and kill myself and have no idea why.

This helps the new player experience. What better way to teach them what not to do than by catastrophically detonating their robot?

What better way to ease players into teaching them that lore is bad by having their Swayback HBK suffer near-catastrophic heat problems even after mastering the HBK class? After all, the game has to make some concessions in light of some of the problems plaguing the game, like jumpjets overcoming the movement penalties to slopes, retaining walls, and the stairways at the local parks in River City.

Edited by Erata, 17 August 2013 - 05:41 AM.

[EvilCow]

I would opt for hardpoints restriction but not in the MW4 variant, only one weapon should go in one hardpoint or we will fall again the the medium/small weapons boating issues.

About phantom heat, how to describe this in a nice way.... it is the most idiotic design decision ever perpetrated to kill this game, I thought that after ECM and 3PV nothing worse could happen, I was so wrong.