233 replies to this topic

[CrashieJ]

we need to be able to factor in Repair costs

the Clans can go by the K-bill or the Kerensky, basically 7 C-bills. Costs will be the same number for both sides 1000 to 1000

but people who choose to retrofit clantech on IS chassis will pay 7 times more to get it fixed, 7000 to 1000.

Meta balanced achieved

[Flying Judgement]

well 10-25 % plus speed is significant i would gladly exchange 30 % armor for that speed longer range uhh yeee it sound s like i could be a sneaky ******* keeping my distance and coreing any one from behind. then runn away and fade in the shadows than strike again.
medium and light harassers strikers going to be in a whole new level and it will be a pain in the arrss to get rid of them. thats will be fun cant wait to go against them

[Morhadel]

Helbrecht, on 17 August 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

few things

1: dropping uneven numbers in any game is never fair

2: your absalutly right all clan gear is lighter and more compact but your forgetting one thing in your argument. MWO hardpoint system you cannot carry more guns than it allows. and with the new boating mechanics and alpha penalties and clan weapons running hotter i really dont see the end all. now surviabilty yes untill extra light engines come out the clan mech will be more survivable to side torso deaths.

3: Blackadder you need to look at weapon values bro youll see that most MWO weapons are fairly close to Table Top values. your absalutly right the clan er medium is better than the is medium that why the IS developed thier own ermed it is less dmg same heat and slightly less range. the hardpoihnt system is gonna hamper the clan mechs fairly well will thier need to balancing made? Absalutly i will never say thier wont need to be im just saying that the massive boogeyman of the clans doesnt translate to this fps/sim/mmo type thing thier doing here.

if they took your #2 suggestion they would not be omni's.

Strum Wealh, on 17 August 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

• An OmniMech's internal structure type (standard, endo-steel, etc) and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's engine type (standard, XL, etc), rating (250, 300, etc), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's armor type (standard, FF, etc), amount (total tonnage/number of armor points), distribution (how much armor is where), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• The locations and types for the cockpit and gyro may not be changed.
  
• The presence and location(s) of MASC and TSM cannot be changed; neither may be added to an OmniMech that wasn't originally built with it, and neither can be moved into a set of criticals other than what they originally occupied (for example, it may not be moved from the Left-Torso to the Right-Torso).
  
• The type of heat sinks (standard, DHS, etc) that are equipped on an OmniMech cannot be changed.
  
• Weapons and other pieces of equipment, additional Heat Sinks, Jump Jets, and other items may have been built-into the OmniMech as hard-wired "fixed items". Examples of such fixed components include the Flamer on the Adder/"Puma" (mounted in the Center-Torso), the Medium Lasers on the Avatar (mounted in the Center-Torso), and five of the Jump Jets on the Summoner/"Thor" (one mounted in the Center-Torso, the other four filling the legs). Such "fixed items" may not be either moved to another location on the OmniMech nor completely removed from said OmniMech.

To use the example of the Thor prime

• HD: x1 FF critical; no open slots
  CT: x1 Jump Jet; 1 open slot
  LT: x2 XL Engine criticals, x2 FF criticals; 8 open slots
  RT: x2 XL Engine criticals, x2 FF criticals; 8 open slots
  LA: x1 FF Critical; 7-9 open slots**
  RA: x1 FF Critical; 7-9 open slots**
  LL: x2 Jump Jets; no open slots
  RL: x2 Jump Jets; no open slots
  

** Hand Actuators and Lower Arm Actuators are considered pod-mounted and can be removed or added in the same way as any other pod-mounted equipment.

The base Thor has 22.5 tons of pod space, and 31-35 open critical spaces.

For anything that will fit, ecm, active probe, laser, ac's, gauss, lrms, heatsinks.
If you change this ability then they are not omnis at all.
The main difference between an omni and a regular mech is the TIME, MONEY and DIFFICULTY of changing a load-out.
Omni- any weapons I want to use. = low cost very little down time.
Reg- total customization = high cost and large amount of down time

For MWO
Reg Mech- Limited weapons customization, TOTAL interchangeability everywhere else
Omni Mech- Unlimited weapon customization, NO changeability anywhere else

sounds like a fair tradeoff.

[Riptor]

There are only TWO absolute certainty with clan tech.

It will be lighter then IS tech and lowered amount of critslots because else some other mechs wont work either.

Why? Because if it isnt then even the stock mechs will not function because they would be overweight.

Everything else from range to damage is up for PGI to decide.. and i highly believe that they will turn down clan tech advantages to a bare minimum.

And seeing how weight reduction is allready a huge bonus i highly doubt they will be anywhere as good in the range and damage department then their table top counterparts weapons.


I think people have to get used to the thought of clan tech NOT being absolutely superior to IS tech in every category anymore.

Even in a 10 vs 12 scenario the clans would whoop IS ***. With the way the game functions you would have 6 ER meds on every clan mech from light to assault and still enough tonnage to field heavy guns in the assault and heavy classes and simply evaporate IS mechs at large laser range.

Dont even start about the energy weapon with the best long range in tabletop the clan ER large laser, also keep in mind that the IS even hundret years after the clan invasion somehow still didnt managed to mimic clan tech in effeciency... 100 years.and mind you the clans did little to nothing to improve their base tech outside of introducing new weapon types... the old once have been the same for several 100 years. Yeah another case of herp derp no sense lore in battletech.

Clan tech will barely be above the numbers of IS tech at worst excluding weight and number of crit slots wich will allready give them a tremendous boosz.

They will allready have enough advantages with everything taking up less space and weighing less.. their weapons dont need any advantages about damage and range.

And Clan weapons did not produce more heat then their IS counterparts.

Edited by Riptor, 18 August 2013 - 01:15 AM.

[fenji]

Strum Wealh, on 17 August 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Actually, many of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs were actually fairly well-armored, in addition to generally being faster than their IS counterparts.

The Daishi carries 19 tons of Standard Armor (99% of maximum).
The Gladiator carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (88% of maximum).
The Masakari carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Man O' War carries 11 tons of Clan FF Armor (85% of maximum).
The " Mad Cat " carries 12 tons of Clan FF Armor (100% of maximum).

Can everyone please stop calling the Timber Wolf a Mad Cat... The Mad Cat name was just because the IS targetting software couldn't recognize the Timber Wolf and would switch back and forth between a Marauder and a Catapult when it was struggling to name it. It is a Timber Wolf, not an IS slang name you Solahma Innies came up with.

Long live the clans!

EDIT: I will be severly dissapointed if they screw up again and call it a Mad Cat in MWO. It has always bothered me.

Edited by fenji, 18 August 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[Asmosis]

If you think clan tech is going to look anything like TT values your dreaming.

It'll be balanced according to the current IS equipment, so if something is lighter and takes less crit slots (i.e. clan gauss) it'll either do less damage, have less range or generate more heat.

There is one thing I think everyone (including us & IGP) can agree on though, everybody is going to complain about it like a *********** non-stop for at least a full 2 months of ranty non-sensicle haterabble.

[fenji]

Sorry for double post, but related to the actual topic... We can't forget that the IS also gets some advantages that the clans didn't have such as the Triple Strength Myomer developed by house Liao for melee damage. That is if they add a melee damage system into the game. The clans may get their MASC but just imagine the power behind a melee attack from say, an Atlas with TSM?

[Dirk Botasky]

Why not just allow all players to purchase clan technologies at a very very high price in cbills and/or MC then there would be no more balance issues.....

(but then again people would complain.... some mechs would be OP....
Yes it would be.... but the repair costs of such mechs might even result in negative CBill per round)


That way PGI can use canon clan weapons specifications, then implement omni hardpoints.

If people think that still isn't fair well they can get their own clan mechs/equipment....

If this game is going to implement a faction (IS or Clan) based ability to get equipment well we are going to need a whole lot of mechs that what we have now.... at LEAST 3 mechs per weight class PER faction.

IS factions have exclusive mechs such as the Victor / Mauler /Fafnir etc... Clans have favoritism in terms of Chassis also.
--- and LosTech

Edited by Dirk Botasky, 18 August 2013 - 01:46 AM.

[Morhadel]

Or you don't have the ability to purchase until you unlock it with GXP.

[fenji]

Or only allow it to be unlockable after earning loyalty points to a clan faction, or complete a set of achievements designed after the Trial of Bloodright.

Edited by fenji, 18 August 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Ryue]

I don't see really where the problem is.
If we take the tabletop as an example, there was something that made it a bit more balanced with clan vs. IS:
Clan bidding system (you never had 15 or 10 clanmechs fighting a company of IS mechs, but less....except if the IS guys angered the clans and acted against their system of honor)

The alternative to that numbers limit was a tonnage limit.

So if the developers go down this way they have 2 different variants there:
1.) Clans have less ppl vs inners sphere
2.) Clans have less tonnage in a battle than inner sphere
depending on how they programed the battle finding engine both could be possible

Another thing is: Even though clan mechs are usually better it also depends quite a bit on the "warrior" inside.
With what I'm seeing how heatsinks functionn in this game, clanmechs could quite possibly overheat faster than IS mechs.
IF we take 2 light mechs as example: Jenner (6 M-L) vs. puma (10 clan M-L) they both have double heat sinks.
A puma could not fire as fast as the jenner even though he does more damage per salvoe he overheats faster
as he has the same heat disposal as the jenner, but generates more than 1.5x the heat! So THAT would even out.

And as pilot skills are player based here I think the difference between clan and IS mechs is less than on the tabletop.
1 clan mech there was 2 IS mechs (no xl, no er weapons, no gauss,....)
1 clan mech there was 1.25-1.5 IS mechs withh starleague technology (xl engine, er weapons, gauss,....)

Sow ith numbers or tonnage limits it should be quite possible there to even the playing field out completely (if the heat difference doesn't take care of that already).
(as an afterthought: Tonnage limit probably not as prermade groups would make that almost impossible so only a numbers
limit 10 vs 12,.... would be possible there). Or The developers have something different in mind there that nobody thought of so far.

[Snowcrow]

I'm thinking they'll just let IS mechs use clan tech.

[TheRealPope478]

I read through this and just want to add my 2 cents. I actually feel pretty bad for the PGI guys. The MechWarrior fan base (including myself) are pretty serious about the games being accurate to the books and TT in terms of weapon range, damage, and heat. So some of the suggestions to pretty much make clan stuff equal to IS stuff just wont fly. Secondly the arguments that the TT values have no impact on how a FPS is going to play are just wrong. The clan double heat sink alone will be game changing. not only can you have more of them you can put them in places an IS mech just cant, like the legs and CT. Also like people already mentioned a clan XL engine only has 2 crit slots in each side torso takeing away the main draw back of an XL engine. On a side note though THAT could easily be balanced by making a side torso loss in clan mechs GRFEATLY increase waste heat. (like say making the heat bar stick at 1/2 full value once side torso lost.) NEXT the suggestion that 10 vs 12 would be a good enough balance just won't work. First off clan mechs really are vastly superior in every way. to balance with numbers you would have to have a trianary (15 clan mechs) vs a battalion (24 IS mechs) while that would be great fun the servers probably just couldn't handle that many players at once and most maps couldn't fit that many mechs without serious issues. Even if you just ignored the TT numbers for lance, company, etc and made like 8 vs 12 you are still going to run into the real problem. Why the hell is anyone going to play as the IS when clan mechs are available? The real issue here is how to encourage people, especially the experienced players to play as IS. Allowing IS mechs to purchase clan tech for cbills is a huge step in that direction, but would have to have some limits. Like I wouldn't allow IS mechs to use clan endo or ferro, but clan XL and double heat sinks should be available along with all weapons. Even then PGI might have to rush through a few IS improvements earlier than in the battletech timeline just to keep people playing IS. In particular the Fafnir mech and the heavy gauss that made it famous. Probably the best bet for balancing game play is just giving the IS its answer to clan tech. BUT of course if IS mechs can use clan tech, why can't a daishi use a Heavy gauss? Anyways my main point is that PGI has its work cut out, but i'm actually really looking forward to seeing how they implement clan stuff. They already fixed some of my main complaints as far as adding an adjustable mouse setting and improving over all game stability and lag. Thanks for making a really cool MechWarrior game PGI.

[CyclonerM]

TheRealPope478, on 18 August 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

Thanks for making a really cool MechWarrior game PGI.

Are you totally sure of your statement?
Actually this game feels anything but a MechWarrior game IMO...

[Pinkydinky]

Actually from the clan's point of view, a binary (2 stars of five mechs each) is equal to a company of IS (3 lances of four mechs).

Especially since the IS are not expected to fight by the rules of zellbrigen (one to one dueling).

a 10v12, combined with the structural limitations that many are proposing (can't change engine ratings, no removal of JJs etc) should make it a pretty fair fight, especially as the IS mechs start gaining some (but rather expensive) clan weapons.

[Shepherd]

Many Clan omnis mount the majority of their weapons in omni pod arm mounts, with perhaps a few backup weapons in the torso. I point to:
Nova
Dire Wolf
Warhawk
Stormcrow
Kit Fox
Fire Moth
Summoner
Hellbringer

In most cases, you've got maybe an SRM or LRM rack in the torso, perhaps a laser or two. And the arms are stuffed with weapons.


I wonder if that will be a form of a balancing factor? IS tech tends to be torso-heavy for weapons, or more balanced across torsos and arms. Clan tech tends to favor arm-mounted weapons. And in general arms have less armor than torso sections, so you could halve a Clanner's firepower with a few well placed shots I think. It would be like facing a faction of HBK-4Gs!

[Bubba Norton]

it doesn't matter what the hell the clans have if they don't make the clan mechs hard to obtain and I do mean hard to obtain, because clans always had less mechs on a battlefield than inner sphere forces and any clanner salvage was always claimed by the government that the planet the battle was on, so this made any clan salvage / mechs very hard to come by, then the game is going to need to be clans versus inner sphere meaning 8 clan mechs versus 12 inner sphere mechs. putting clan weaponry in innersphere mechs should not be easy either, also the idea that clam LRM's will be more accurate is crap the game already makes the accuracy of LRMs more accurate than the TT game had them, and the TT game never allowed them to go round corners to hit, something they do to me all the damm time.
Neither the Clans or the Innersphere had as many mechs of the assault class available as we see being played in the game so that should also be attended to as well

[Grugore]

Clan mechs are SUPPOSED to be OP. If they weren't, they wouldn't BE clan mechs. If they aren't over powered, why even have them in the game? They could balance them by numbers, as suggested earlier. 12-10 sounds pretty fair to me. But then, I and one of my friends teamed with a pug in closed beta and won a 3vs12 match. Correction. 3 VS 8.

Edited by Grugore, 01 October 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Ryue]

if IS gets clan weapons any reduction in numbers is bound to be quite unbalancing for the clans. They have a few slots more than IS, but else they would have the same weapons, thus the same tonnage,.... . This means with less ppl to fight for their side they would be at a severe disadvantages as the IS mechs could put the same number of weapons (dps in this case) into their chasis, have the same possible weapon weight (XL and es and FF only really are different in terms of slots used there), thus the clans would be put at a severe disadvantage with less mechs for them.

[CyclonerM]

Well,PGI and public test servers are meant to test,actually..