233 replies to this topic

[Helbrecht]

Blackadder, on 17 August 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Your ignoring what i stated, in an attempt to try to create some kind of relevance to Tabletop. tabletop does not even enter into the equation. It has no bearing or value, beyond being the initial values at which PGI chose to code into the game. If PGI uses the same starting point for clan mechs, they will be 25-75% more powerful with minimal downsides, when compared to current in game IS mechs unless PGI puts in some significant restrictions.

If you want to argue that clan tech is going to be fine, then you need to argue it from the point of view of mech warrior online, the FPS computer game, not battletech the Tabletop game, because MWO does not use the majority of rules and design concepts from battletech. There are no pilot skill checks, there are no hit modifiers, there is no heat penalty or anything else that mitigates power of the battlemechs that has crossed over from TT to MWO.

1: BlackAdder im confused as to the point your tring to make you just aggreed with everything i said.

2: any odd numbered drops 1 dont work in a fps type game and 2 are not nessasary with proper balancing

CERML R-450 H-5 Dmg-7 Tng-1 CrtS-1

ISERML R-360 H-5 Dmg-5 Tng-1 Crts-1

90 more range 2 more dmg

if you look at all the clan vs is weapon base values from TT thier actually pretty close to each other aside from
the Big 3 which are

CERPPC
CGUASS
CLPL

[Tamashii]

I guess the magic word is "battle value" like it is at the tabletop.
e.g. the ATLAS AS7-D got a battle value of 5.371 points, the Daishi A got 8.263 points.
With this value the teams will be balanced and we got 12 players each, ok the tonnage of the clans will be less but in my opinion it will be the well balanced solution.

[Pinselborste]

clantech Needs to be balanced, there is no good reason to take something broken from TT and implement it into MWO. its already bad enough that the gauss rifle doesnt generate heat.

if the game wont be balanced, it will die.

both clan and IS tech Need to have up and downsides.

[Lucian Nostra]

Strum Wealh, on 17 August 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Actually, many of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs were actually fairly well-armored, in addition to generally being faster than their IS counterparts.

The Daishi carries 19 tons of Standard Armor (99% of maximum).
The Gladiator carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (88% of maximum).
The Masakari carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Man O' War carries 11 tons of Clan FF Armor (85% of maximum).
The Mad Cat carries 12 tons of Clan FF Armor (100% of maximum).
The Thor carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (84% of maximum).
The Loki carries 8 tons of Standard Armor (61% of maximum).
The Vulture carries 8.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (81% of maximum).
The Ryoken carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Black Hawk carries 10 tons of Standard Armor (95% of maximum).
The Fenris carries 7.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (94% of maximum).
The Dragonfly carries 7 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Puma carries 6 tons of Clan FF Armor (97% of maximum).
The Uller carries 4 tons of Clan FF Armor (72% of maximum).
The Koshi carries 3.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (75% of maximum).
The Dasher carries 2 tons of Clan FF Armor (55% of maximum).

Outside of the Loki and the three lightest TRO 3050 OmniMechs, the vast majority of the Clans' initial Invasion OmniMechs are at or very near their maximum armor loads.
In fact, only two of the 16 carry less than 70% of their maximum armor load: the 65-ton Loki (61%) and the 20-ton Dasher (55%) - with the former devoting ~43% of its total mass to OmniTech pod space (allowing for substantial and flexible armaments) and the latter carries a massive engine (for a base maximum speed of ~162 kph, going to ~216 kph with MASC activated).

----------

IMO, one of the better ways to "balance" OmniMechs (both Clan-built and, eventually, IS-built) against non-OmniTech BattleMechs is to implement the canonical OmniMech restrictions (described in more detail on pages 47-57 of TechManual).

• An OmniMech's internal structure type (standard, endo-steel, etc) and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's engine type (standard, XL, etc), rating (250, 300, etc), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's armor type (standard, FF, etc), amount (total tonnage/number of armor points), distribution (how much armor is where), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• The locations and types for the cockpit and gyro may not be changed.
  
• The presence and location(s) of MASC and TSM cannot be changed; neither may be added to an OmniMech that wasn't originally built with it, and neither can be moved into a set of criticals other than what they originally occupied (for example, it may not be moved from the Left-Torso to the Right-Torso).
  
• The type of heat sinks (standard, DHS, etc) that are equipped on an OmniMech cannot be changed.
  
• Weapons and other pieces of equipment, additional Heat Sinks, Jump Jets, and other items may have been built-into the OmniMech as hard-wired "fixed items". Examples of such fixed components include the Flamer on the Adder/"Puma" (mounted in the Center-Torso), the Medium Lasers on the Avatar (mounted in the Center-Torso), and five of the Jump Jets on the Summoner/"Thor" (one mounted in the Center-Torso, the other four filling the legs). Such "fixed items" may not be either moved to another location on the OmniMech nor completely removed from said OmniMech.

In exchange, each open critical slot could be a non-type-specific hardpoint, or each configuration (that is, "variant") could be assigned a number of non-type-specific hardpoints (based on its initial loadout).


This would allow PGI to implement multiple OmniMechs of the same weight while also keeping them relatively unique (so that there is a reason to take "OmniMech X" over "OmniMech Y" beyond "best geometry/hitboxes").

The above restrictions are a large part of what keeps each OmniMech unique in spite of their relatively flexible weapon and pod-mounted equpment loads (e.g. why a Blood Asp might be used in place of a Kingfisher and vice versa, as well as why the former exists in the first place despite being predated by the latter by 172 years in-universe, and why OmniMechs of the same tonnage can exist without just being "X-ton gunbags with different skins").

The only way the TT restrictions on Omnimechs would work in MWO is if the clanners got to drop with their mech (say a Summoner) and apon seeing the map got to choose from a few different stored configurations.

In TT playing a random game like we do in MWO, omnimech meant nothing. The IS could cherry pick through the numerous variants as was to get what they wanted.

Only in an extended campaign did it mean anything when you could swap out your pods to fit where you where fighting and the IS players had to deal with what they had choosen from the start.

Because as is, total customization except for class of weapons (Energy, vs ballistic vs Missile) Trumps total weapons and free slots customization but crits, engine rating and armor amount are fixed (plus things like fixed weapons and JJs and masc and all that other stuff)

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 18 August 2013 - 06:30 AM.

[Ogunn]

aseth, on 17 August 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

They could also make Clan drops of two stars against three Inner Sphere lances. 10 vs 12.

I agree with Aseth it should be 2 Clan Stars against 2 Inner Sphere Lances.

And Yes the Clan Mechs/Tech SHOULD BE OP. That is the whole point of CLAN Tech!!

Balancing could be achieved with in actual game play. Not by Nerfing Clan tech.

The following suggestions are my ideas on how to keep game play balanced once the Clans are introduced
.
1) Players that want to field Clan Mechs should be forced to drop only with other players fielding Clan mechs.
2) Innersphere teams should be given a Tonnage advantage over Clan Teams Ex Clan Team Llimited to 700Tons IS Team 840Tons
3) Clan Teams with a lower Drop Tonnage should be moved to the top of the matchmaking queue.(This could be PGIs implementation of a Clan Batchalls)
4) Cost to purchase Clan tech and repair Clan tech should be extremely high 2 - 3 times the cost of IS tech
5) Only 2 ways to acquire Clan tech. Buying the mech. Or salvage that becomes available after a Victory over a Clan Team.
Clan tech salvage should be available only to the pilots that do most or all of the damage to a Clan mech. For those that
engage a Clan mech and win in 1 on 1 combat they should be awarded a damaged chasis in their mech bay.
6) Mechwarriors need to learn and use tactics and planning!!! IE Formations, Ambushes, Overwatch, Bounding Overwatch.
7) Oh last but not least. This is a big one. IN GAME VOICE CHAT. That would be huge. Yes I know about
teamspeak. However I cannot think of any other implementation that would make such a huge impact on gameplay.

It would really be dissapointing to me and some of my other Clan mates if these suggestions or something similar were not implemented.

Thanks to PGI for all the hardwork!

[Julius Septim]

To be Honest if the Clans are NOT Op at start i consider this Game not Battletech.

I would be fine if the first Clanners are NPC or DEV Mechs and just stomp us for a week until we can get some Tech/Strategies (Balancing) etc but when they´r just a Mech Expansion its boring as hell. Thats my Opinion

Edited by The Man of Steel, 18 August 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Xigunder Blue]

What is happening is an overall nerf system on clans similar to IS nerfing going on now. The result will be a game that gains player support through things like maps but as new players enter there is going to be a steady decline in play itself as all the restrictions and nerfs begin to degrade play fun. Seen it already in this beta, something I had hoped the Devs would see but I think the direction and procedures have long ago been decided and the resultant crapstorm of anger has no bearing on the game any longer. The delay on almost everything the players want to know is now the status quo, especially on the CW. Considering how much I have already spent in RL dollars I can now only hope the game gets better. Not even this post is a complaint, merely an observation.

[CyclonerM]

After much reading about the proposed solution,this is a summary of what in my opinion is the best way to introduce the Clans and their tech and 'mechs:
-First: after a time from the start of CW phase 3 (planets conquest etc.) the invading Clans should be introduced as playable faction.

-It is too complicated make Trials or similar challenges to join a Clan faction, and many casual players who want the new CERPPC boats would cry,probably; there is another way: everyone can join a Clan faction,but at first they will have to use only their IS 'mechs or second-line Clan 'mechs (such as the refits of old 'is mechs, like the Jenner IIC or the Hunchback IIC). This will reflect being assigned to a second line garrison unit. Then,when you get a reasonable amount of loyalty points, you are "transferred" into a front-line unit and it will unlock Omni-mechs  which you can buy (at a reasonably high price of course).

-in CW battles, 10vs12, two Stars against three lances,will be fine and will reflect the bidding before the battle.


-What about players-created units? I do not know yet how they will be implemented in the House factions,but i would like to have player groups aligned with a Clan faction which can claim a part of that faction. For example: i am part of a group,"Clan Wolf Alpha Galaxy". It has more than 10-12 players,so we should be allowed to create a in-game unit. A Galaxy would probably be too big for us, so we could claim in-game one or two canon Clusters like the 13th Wolf Guards. It would led to many other problems,so is better if this remains a mere dream...

Bonus: i would be really happy if LP decals will be inspired to canon units and not just thunders,hearts, eagles, bullets and everything banal you can think.

Any thoughts? Costructive feedback?

Edited by CyclonerM, 18 August 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Blackadder]

Helbrecht, on 18 August 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

1: BlackAdder im confused as to the point your tring to make you just aggreed with everything i said.

2: any odd numbered drops 1 dont work in a fps type game and 2 are not nessasary with proper balancing

CERML R-450 H-5 Dmg-7 Tng-1 CrtS-1

ISERML R-360 H-5 Dmg-5 Tng-1 Crts-1

90 more range 2 more dmg

if you look at all the clan vs is weapon base values from TT thier actually pretty close to each other aside from
the Big 3 which are

CERPPC
CGUASS
CLPL

IS ER ML is not in the game and not planned to be in the game. The timeline that PGI/IGP is using is 3050, and they are basing it on the initial clan invasion. not a decade or two later, when all the IS reverse engineered weapons come into play. what the IS have is the 3025-3050 weapons tables, which do not compare at all to the clan weapons in any fashion in a FPS game. Your not using a valid comparison, if you want to compare weapons you need to compare the clan PPC vs IS PPC, and clan ER ML vs IS ML & LL. It is remotely possible PGI will advance the timeline by a decade, and put in the 3058-3067 IS weapons in the game, but that makes no real sense, since the weapons we have now would become obsolete.

Attempting to balance MWO has to revolve around what occurs in the game, not what is written on the TT ruleset. Currently, MWO has no way to balance mechs beyond limitations on tonnage, critical slots etc etc. heat is a non issue for the most part. Economic balancing does not occur, because this game has no economic component,although it might with CW. Repair & Rearm, was shown to be failure for the most part, and led to non desirable game play from many players, while making the rich richer, and punishing new players. Balance by numbers is likely to be a huge can of worms, but is one way it could be done. Problem is, it will lead to lopsided game play, where everyone flocks to the clan mechs because they are more powerful, and most gamers actively seek out personal power over team value.

[Ryue]

Pinselborste, on 18 August 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

clantech Needs to be balanced, there is no good reason to take something broken from TT and implement it into MWO. its already bad enough that the gauss rifle doesnt generate heat.

if the game wont be balanced, it will die.

both clan and IS tech Need to have up and downsides.

Sorry I have to correct you there. Gauss rifle does generate heat. (10 single heat sinks: 2% heat per gaussrifle fired)

[Spike Brave]

Who says that Clan tech should be balanced against IS. Maybe CW will follow the Truce and IS and Clan forces won't fight yet. Really the most limiting factor for the Clans were their rules of engagement like you only fight one target at a time. I don't see players being willing to do that so I think the best solution for balance is to keep the tech separate until some IS advances are added to the game. Different narc pods, light/heavy gauss, X-pulse, and rotary AC would even things up IMO.

[Pinselborste]

Ryue, on 18 August 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Sorry I have to correct you there. Gauss rifle does generate heat. (10 single heat sinks: 2% heat per gaussrifle fired)

its heat neutral with 4 single heatsinks, so you cant really say it generates heat.

[Vyrago]

Perhaps in CW games there will be some form of 'balance' when matches are Inner Sphere vs Clan. I could see something like a tonnage limit. example: Clan drop weight: 1000 tons, Inner Sphere drop weight: 1200 tons.

In Pug games though, it will just be anything goes and everyone will say PGI broke the game.

[Zephyr Charge]

I'll be EXTREMELY dissapointed if the clans arent op.

If we can stop the invasion, but the devs then have to artificially make it so the clans start winning, Ill be very annoyed

[Gremlich Johns]

Clans mech will never be overpowered because.....

PGI will never be able to balance them and they will be forced to set the game in 3045

[Vyrago]

I agree that Clan mechs should be powerful. Unless PGI simply changes the current fluff, clan weapons are lighter nearly across the board and many have better ranges. Lets take the ubiquitous MadCat "Timberwolf", a 75 ton Clan Omni Mech and stack it up against a top line IS Heavy Mech. (there are no 75 ton IS mechs in MWO yet). For this comparison I choose the Cataphract CTF-3D. The Mad Cat has 15 (or 17) double heat sinks to the 3D's 16 single. The Clan mech has armor rating of 230, translated into MWO stats that would be 460. Compare that to the 3D armor of 352. that's 1.3 x more armor on the Clan machine. The MadCat boasts a 375 XL engine, while the 3D has only an XL 280. The Mad Cat has an Alpha Strike (if all LRMs hit, and remember clan LRMs have NO minimum range) of about 85. The Cataphract has an Alpha Strike of about 40. Shall I go on?

[Darkhammer]

One of the main advantage that the clan had was the their weapon pods. Their mechs where always setup for the battlefield, IS mech had to go with balance because they could not change the weapons fast to match the battle field.

No matter how I setup a mech it will have a disadvantage depending on the map that loads up.

To me, if you play a clan mech you setup your weapons then get to choose the map you will fight on, IS does not get to choose the map ( Random like we all play with now).

That alone would be a major advantage in any fight.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

They won't be OP, because at the going rate they won't even make it into this game.

[Uncleclint]

They will be OP if clan LRMs turn out to function like they did in TT.

Weigh half the tonnage of IS (c-LRM20 weighs 5 tons instead of 10) is already freakin me out, but the worst of it all is THEY GOT NO MINIMUM RANGE!!!

Now just imagine what you could do...

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

So many people capable of predicting the future. Don't suppose I could get powerball numbers outta you guys, could I?