Standard Clan LRMs do have indirect fire capability.
It's the ATMs (Advanced Tactical Missiles; developed by Clan Coyote in 3060) and Streak LRMs (developed by Clan Coyote in 3057) that cannot do indirect fire.
Strum Wealh, on 27 August 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:
Standard Clan LRMs do have indirect fire capability.
It's the ATMs (Advanced Tactical Missiles; developed by Clan Coyote in 3060) and Streak LRMs (developed by Clan Coyote in 3057) that cannot do indirect fire.
But doing so is a brake in the honor rules of combat so to help balance them they mite make them act like SRMs with minor tracking
People seem to be forgetting that MW4 approached this exact balance problem by incentivizing people to use IS weaponry while still keeping clan weapons superior in almost every way by addressing the one thing that CBT didn't have stats for: Refire rate.
Everything in CBT was based off of a 10 second turn where you could fire the weapon once. MW4 had IS weapons, for the most part, simply have a faster refire rate. This gave players the option of using Clan Tech true to Clan engagement doctrine and engaging in snipe-fests at maximum range where the enemy couldn't return fire. Meanwhile, IS tech encouraged players to get into knife fighting range and fire more often with less power per shot.
Example: The IS PPC had a refire rate of 4 seconds, while the Clan ERPPC had a refire rate of 6 seconds.
In a slug fest the opening shot inflicted 10 damage for the IS guy, and 15 for the clanner. At 4 seconds in, the IS guy had delivered 20 damage, while the clanner still had only the initial 15 damage on his opponent. At 6 seconds, the clanner jumped up to 30 damage, but, 2 seconds later, at 8 seconds into the fight, the IS mechwarrior matched it with a 3rd PPC shot. At 12 seconds, both mechwarriors fired again, putting the IS mechwarrior at 40 damage on his target and the clanner with 45 damage on his.
This was an across the board downside to clan weaponry that did not violate any of the CBT numbers but did help balance the weaponry to a sane level. Since most people seem to favor the jump snipe or hit and fade alpha strike load outs on their mechs, utilizing 2-3 (ER)PPCs and a Gauss Rifle, this will be perfectly fine and dandy for you. Hell, the extra 2 seconds will let you dissipate the heat better as well.
However, for players like me, IS weaponry is my cup of tea. I like out maneuvering my opponent, giving them nowhere to hide, and ripping their guts out of the back.
Refire rate is the way to balance clan tech on a 1:1 ratio. After that, they can look into number of players on each team, matchmaking rules, tonnage restrictions, omni-slots, etc. Just keep in mind, that Clan ERPPC needs to be balanced on an IS chassis just as much, if not more, than it has to be balanced on a Clan chassis.
Actually, many of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs were actually fairly well-armored, in addition to generally being faster than their IS counterparts. The Daishi carries 19 tons of Standard Armor (99% of maximum). The Gladiator carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (88% of maximum). The Masakari carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum). The Man O' War carries 11 tons of Clan FF Armor (85% of maximum). The Mad Cat carries 12 tons of Clan FF Armor (100% of maximum). The Thor carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (84% of maximum). The Loki carries 8 tons of Standard Armor (61% of maximum). The Vulture carries 8.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (81% of maximum). The Ryoken carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum). The Black Hawk carries 10 tons of Standard Armor (95% of maximum). The Fenris carries 7.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (94% of maximum). The Dragonfly carries 7 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum). The Puma carries 6 tons of Clan FF Armor (97% of maximum). The Uller carries 4 tons of Clan FF Armor (72% of maximum). The Koshi carries 3.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (75% of maximum). The Dasher carries 2 tons of Clan FF Armor (55% of maximum). Outside of the Loki and the three lightest TRO 3050 OmniMechs, the vast majority of the Clans' initial Invasion OmniMechs are at or very near their maximum armor loads. In fact, only two of the 16 carry less than 70% of their maximum armor load: the 65-ton Loki (61%) and the 20-ton Dasher (55%) - with the former devoting ~43% of its total mass to OmniTech pod space (allowing for substantial and flexible armaments) and the latter carries a massive engine (for a base maximum speed of ~162 kph, going to ~216 kph with MASC activated). ---------- IMO, one of the better ways to "balance" OmniMechs (both Clan-built and, eventually, IS-built) against non-OmniTech BattleMechs is to implement the canonical OmniMech restrictions (described in more detail on pages 47-57 of TechManual).
An OmniMech's internal structure type (standard, endo-steel, etc) and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
An OmniMech's engine type (standard, XL, etc), rating (250, 300, etc), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
An OmniMech's armor type (standard, FF, etc), amount (total tonnage/number of armor points), distribution (how much armor is where), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
The locations and types for the cockpit and gyro may not be changed.
The presence and location(s) of MASC and TSM cannot be changed; neither may be added to an OmniMech that wasn't originally built with it, and neither can be moved into a set of criticals other than what they originally occupied (for example, it may not be moved from the Left-Torso to the Right-Torso).
The type of heat sinks (standard, DHS, etc) that are equipped on an OmniMech cannot be changed.
Weapons and other pieces of equipment, additional Heat Sinks, Jump Jets, and other items may have been built-into the OmniMech as hard-wired "fixed items". Examples of such fixed components include the Flamer on the Adder/"Puma" (mounted in the Center-Torso), the Medium Lasers on the Avatar (mounted in the Center-Torso), and five of the Jump Jets on the Summoner/"Thor" (one mounted in the Center-Torso, the other four filling the legs). Such "fixed items" may not be either moved to another location on the OmniMech nor completely removed from said OmniMech.
In exchange, each open critical slot could be a non-type-specific hardpoint, or each configuration (that is, "variant") could be assigned a number of non-type-specific hardpoints (based on its initial loadout). This would allow PGI to implement multiple OmniMechs of the same weight while also keeping them relatively unique (so that there is a reason to take "OmniMech X" over "OmniMech Y" beyond "best geometry/hitboxes"). The above restrictions are a large part of what keeps each OmniMech unique in spite of their relatively flexible weapon and pod-mounted equpment loads (e.g. why a Blood Asp might be used in place of a Kingfisher and vice versa, as well as why the former exists in the first place despite being predated by the latter by 172 years in-universe, and why OmniMechs of the same tonnage can exist without just being "X-ton gunbags with different skins").
lol, so the IS get super-omnis whilst the the clans not? great idea bro, please use your brain next time. if you want to go with canon it is like that: IS mechs cannot be altered in any way. Basta. ! We stick with this, then we can stick with your clan-rules. Per TT-Ruleset Clan mechs are about 400% -1000% better than IS 3025 mechs, and about 500% better than IS -Star League tech mechs.
Within the books all that stops the Clans are some super curageos locust pilots who manage to shred a whole clan-galaxy whith their 1 remaining MG and exactly 1 bullet per enemy. If the books were "realistic" (yeah , lol i know) the whole IS would have been killed 3049 alltogether. Since that would have killed the whole BT universe, these super-locust pilots appeared and saved the IS.
*Clears throat*
In the event I get a Direwolf, I will be equipting it with a clan weapon by the name of the "UAC20"
Some of you folks may be familiar with this weapon, for you who arnt, it is a AC20 better in everyway,
It fires faster, it takes less spots, it weighs less, and the Dire Wolf can hold four of them.
This mech weapon cambo will simply END any mech unfortunate enough to see it longer than say, two seconds.
Except that magical mystery heat and temporal firing delays will render using 4 point less. by the time you could use the 4th the first would be ready. so dps will be massive but the alpha is already Nerfed, but this is a good thing that pgi didn't expect. because now you can convert the 4th ultra-20 into...... ammo.. ammo and more ammo.......14 or so tons i recon. cant wait to one shot anything smaller then 80 tones.
When you use a game system that 30 years old, you get players that have min max the game for 30 years.
Except that magical mystery heat and temporal firing delays will render using 4 point less. by the time you could use the 4th the first would be ready. so dps will be massive but the alpha is already Nerfed, but this is a good thing that pgi didn't expect. because now you can convert the 4th ultra-20 into...... ammo.. ammo and more ammo.......14 or so tons i recon. cant wait to one shot anything smaller then 80 tones.
When you use a game system that 30 years old, you get players that have min max the game for 30 years.
I guess both of our points rely strictly on the numbers, if the reload time is low enough I completely agree with you (3 UAC20's non chain firing isn't something to laugh at either) , and if its too long, well you can always fit the 4th and make it work anyway.
I guess both of our points rely strictly on the numbers, if the reload time is low enough I completely agree with you (3 UAC20's non chain firing isn't something to laugh at either) , and if its too long, well you can always fit the 4th and make it work anyway.
I can hear the QQ of it's OP through time itself. The correct counter of course is a Long range LRM boat. but who would really use one..... raises hand. 5 lrms at a time rocking your world... working as intended. then open up with the ultra 20's. cant wait... it gona be like that holiday when we get stuff.
While I do belive that a Clan Mech should be far superior to that of a IS Mech I don't think the way to balance them is to mechanicly change how the weapons work. Originaly FASA did it with Honor and bidding away forces to make it more even, and I think that balance should achivied with that in mind. Some ideas can be a Binary vs a Company, less tonnage such as if IS would be allowed 650 tons for 10 Mech Clans get 55, penalties for assists. Or maybe untill things get sorted out more Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS only.
Except that magical mystery heat and temporal firing delays will render using 4 point less. by the time you could use the 4th the first would be ready. so dps will be massive but the alpha is already Nerfed, but this is a good thing that pgi didn't expect. because now you can convert the 4th ultra-20 into...... ammo.. ammo and more ammo.......14 or so tons i recon. cant wait to one shot anything smaller then 80 tones.
When you use a game system that 30 years old, you get players that have min max the game for 30 years.
well, if they go off the current AC20 heat arc... simply firing -one- uac20 twice within the time limit is going to skyrocket your heat... imagine firing four of them twice... you won't just cook, you'll supernova XD
based on their comments so far (about the heat penalty system) I think its pretty clear that we will have
a) clan weapons being superior to individual IS counterparts
b ) # of weapons before penalty probably set to "1"
That way you can have your OP clan weapons, but you can't boat them as 2+ would probably be worse than 2+ IS weapons (cept for IS that are already at 1, like ac20) and TBH its a reasonable compromise, since nothing in BT made clan tech balanced they *DO* need some external system to balance clan tech vs IS tech for a lot of the stuff.
Also on the UAC thing, expect larger UAC's to have higher jam rates, i'd expect UAC20 to jam after 1-2 shots if fired rapidly. something like 50-70% jam rate.
Clan equipment won't be OP because:
"Bryan talks a bit about PGI's approach to Clan Tech balance and how to avoid a mass exodus to the Clans because of superior everything Clantech won't follow the lolOP model from tabletop/lore; PGI doesn't want to obsolete IS mechs with the release of clantech."
What a complete nonesense claim. Ofc the clans are entirely OP in more or less every aspect. What a futile attempt to deny it with broken non-arguments. Why is the MadCat/Timberwolf good? Because of everything that makes clan omnimechs clan omnimechs: Clan LRM20s weigh 5 fricking tons. Clan ER lasers outrange even IS ER lasers a LOT, not even speaking of non-ER versions. DHS fit in the legs, you can fricking equip ferro+endo at the same space of one of these in IS technology. It ends nowhere. U/AC20, U/AC10 would entirely break the game. What kind of an attempt is this? If PGI isn't super careful with the system they introduce, then you can trash all your IS mechs and start saving MC for a King Crab.
Autobot9000, on 05 September 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:
What a complete nonesense claim. Ofc the clans are entirely OP in more or less every aspect. What a futile attempt to deny it with broken non-arguments. Why is the MadCat/Timberwolf good? Because of everything that makes clan omnimechs clan omnimechs: Clan LRM20s weigh 5 fricking tons. Clan ER lasers outrange even IS ER lasers a LOT, not even speaking of non-ER versions. DHS fit in the legs, you can fricking equip ferro+endo at the same space of one of these in IS technology. It ends nowhere. U/AC20, U/AC10 would entirely break the game. What kind of an attempt is this? If PGI isn't super careful with the system they introduce, then you can trash all your IS mechs and start saving MC for a King Crab.
Firstly, the King Crabis an IS 'Mech.
Secondly, Bryan Elman made a set of statements in the first of the three parts of the interview by NGNG (as referenced by Wolfways in the preceding post) regarding Clan technology and its implementation in MWO, from (approximately) the 36:30 mark to (approximately) the 38:20 mark - certainly something to which would-be Clan-oriented players should listen.
Quote
I'm going to say this right now, so that everybody can manage their expectations: We're not going to make the same mistake that was made for the last 30 years when it comes to introducing Clan technology into a BattleTech or MechWarrior project. IT WAS A MISTAKE - how powerful they were when they were first introduced - and it's something that I remember talking with [Jordan Weisman] about and him saying, "Wow... if I could take it back, I probably would; I'd probably change how they work, because it immediately invalidated an entire line of products and 'Mechs and content".
So, our approach to introducing Clan tech - which includes Double Heat Sinks and lasers and how equipment fits onto 'Mechs and OmniMechs - is we're going to look at it from the context of our game and inspired by what the intent was for Clan tech.
"Here is a superior force, coming back, that's going to lay waste to the Inner Sphere." But, we want to make sure those Inner Sphere players are able to compete, still. But the way the story was written, "it was through the valor of the Inner Sphere and the unification of the Inner Sphere that they were able to defeat the Clans, and overcome that superior tech."
We can't guarantee that our playerbase is going to be able to do that. In fact, it'll probably be the opposite - everybody is going to flock to the best, most efficient piece of content, and therefore invalidate all the other content - and we don't want that to happen. We want to be able to recreate what was described in that lore, but it's going to require us to change the mechanics and the exact BT... let's say, the numbers, to make sure that the players can actually try to achieve what happened in that canon.
- Bryan Ekman on Clan tech in MWO, from NGNG #88 (recorded Sept. 04, 2013)
Edited by Strum Wealh, 05 September 2013 - 12:47 PM.
They could also make Clan drops of two stars against three Inner Sphere lances. 10 vs 12.
Others have commented on it, and I just want to toss in an agreement with this. I think the numbers in a match should be the balancing factor. Besides, isn't that more honorable for the clanners
Edit- just read the interview post after I posted... makes me think they will go with weapon balancing. It would work, I imagine, but I still like the drop numbers route. Makes sense since Clan and IS unit numbers are based differently, 5 and 4 respectively. I guess we shall see, when we see!
Clan Double heat sinks These are how the world ends.
This is what will do us in. In MWO your capacity or maximum heat limit before you shutdown increases with every heatsink you slap on. Clan heatsinks are smaller, and can have more stuffed in.
When your capacity or threshold increases, so does the limit of things you can alpha strike over and over. Currently while 6 PPCs with 10 full seconds of twiddling your thumbs will leave you shutdown, in MWO you can fire 16 of them in 12 seconds before you shutdown.
Imagine what you can do when you fit in 28 DHS?
At the current rate: 30 base + 10 * 2 + 18 * 1.4 + 20% heat containment for an elite level clan mech... 90.24 capacity.
That's 6 ER PPCs at 15 heat each fired at the same time while stationary, without shutting down (in Alpine), when in tabletop even a 100 ton clan mech equipped with this and as many DHS as possible shuts down for almost 10 to 20 seconds.
If our thresholds were locked in the 30s, that's 3 PPCs fired at once shut down (no penalty b.s.), no damage. 2 ER PPCs fired at the same time, shut down, no damage. 8 ML fired at once, shut down, some damage. 4 large lasers fired at once = 28 out of 30. 5 LLs = instant shutdown and damage. AC/2, UAC/5 and AC/5 sustained fire would be cut down between 8 to 15 seconds shorter and be able to result in shutdown unless the player used trigger control techniques.
In the mean time... you may as well stop using DHS and run SHS.
In tabletop, twin ER PPCs is 30 heat, I cool 40 heat in 10 seconds. Therefore not counting the gauss rifle I should be back to zero in 7.5 seconds. I appear to cool in 5 seconds with +15% cooling which is 4.6/second, and a capacity of 70 without unlocks. The PPCs generate 13 heat each. But while here they are nothing at all and I go up to firing 3 times immediately in a row (6 ER PPCs), just two of them at any time with 30 capacity as our limit would bring me instantly to shutdown without unlocks. With unlocks, I'd have a 6 heat leeway (so, 1 medium laser and walking).
Omnimechs-vs- Battlemechs
Welp since every mech here is a omnimech (sorta) were now 0 for 2 for clans being over powered
You obviously don't understand what an Omnimech is. Omnimechs use pods for hard points. These pods can be swapped out with new pods at any moment with any weapon or combo. This makes Omnimechs more versitile and better suited to world domination. One chassis can do any role.
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Strum Wealh, on 27 August 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:
