62 replies to this topic

[Phoenix Branson]

The developers should consider buffing ammunition for autocannons. However, I’m not in favor of doubling the ammo/ton as some people suggested, but increasing it slightly across the board. Increasing the ammo/ton will make autocannons competitive throughout the match, especially with 12 vs. 12. This change will not only help make stock variants slightly more viable on the battlefield, but will also promote mixed loadouts due to reduced ammo tonnage requirements. I’m also proposing to the developers to buff the ammunition for NARC while making the MG and AMS more flexible (we need more half ton options in the Mechlab)…

The proposed changes for autocannons are as follows:
AC/2: Ammo is increased from 75 to 100 shots/ton.
AC/5: Ammo is increased from 30 to 40 shots/ton.
ULTRA AC/5: Ammo is increased from 25 to 35 shots/ton.
AC/10: Ammo is increased from 15 to 20 shots/ton.
LB 10-X: Ammo is increased from 15 to 20 shots/ton.
AC/20: Ammo is increased from 7 to 10 shots/ton.

To make NARC more competitive:
NARC: Ammo is increased from 12 to 20 shots/ton.

To make MG and AMS more flexible:
MG: Players can now purchase ammo in one ton (2000 shots) or half ton (1000 shots) increments.
AMS: Players can now purchase ammo in one ton (1000 shots) or half ton (500 shots) increments.

Edited by Maverick01, 18 August 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

When most people refer to doubling ammo values, they aren't talking about doubling the current MWO numbers. They're referring to 200% of TT values, which MWO currently has at 150%, besides the MG which operates on a different system than in TT, entirely. Basically, they're talking about a ~33% increase to current MWO values

[Sahoj]

It seems a little dramatic that I'm carrying almost double the stock loadouts worth of ammo on my builds.
4 tons minimum for AC20, Gauss and AC10 on my 50-60 tonners.

Approx 3 tons should be adequate for faster mechs who have a lot of shots available in a match, 2-3 tons for the bigs.

[Dracol]

Which mech builds are you running out of ammo with?

I've talked with others who ran out of ammo. Usually its people with lrms that shot at anything or autocannons that are used at extreme range and that run out by the time the enemy closes.

[Sahoj]

If I take 3 tons of Gauss/AC10/AC20 ammo in a DRG, HBK or CN9-YLW I will often run out of ammo 3/4ths way of the match. I'll generally have to be very conservative with shots.

If I take 4 tons I get to take the gloves off and will generally only run out of ammo at match end.

When I bring the beef in a Victor, Highlander or Cataphract - 3 tons is usually enough. I have simply less solid opportunities to shoot.

[MonkeyCheese]

I would love ams ammo in half tons for everyone, and mg in half tons for the lights, but seriously dont boat only ballistics or only missiles and you wont have a problem.

There are these things called lasers and particle cannons that have unlimited ammo, they can be amazing to supplement your ammo weaponry during long 12v12 fights.

[Elizander]

Extra ammo would be a great thing to have for ACs. I'm in agreement with the 20%-25% range increase. I appear to be fine with SRM and LRM ammo.

[Koniving]

Maverick01, on 18 August 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Hate to ask, but haven't you considered carrying a laser on the side instead of boating purely ammo-based weapons? That said, would you consider a laser if they fired faster than they do now, and generated "slightly" less heat?

Here's why I ask.
Ballistics:
AC/10, cooldown 2.5 seconds.
AC/2, cooldown 0.5 seconds.
AC/5, cooldown 1.5 seconds.
LB-10x, cooldown 2.5 seconds.
Ultra AC/5, cooldown 1.1 seconds.

Interesting...
PPC, cooldown 4 seconds.
Gauss Rifle, cooldown 4 seconds.
ER PPC, cooldown 4 seconds
AC/20, cooldown 4 seconds.
Medium laser, burn time 1 second before cooldown starts, 3 seconds for a total of 4 seconds.
Old Large Pulse, burn time 0.75 seconds before cooldown starts, cooldown 3.25 seconds for 4 seconds.
New Large Pulse, burn time 0.6 seconds before cooldown starts, cooldown 3.25 seconds for 3.85 seconds.

Large laser, burn time 1 second before cooldown starts, 3.25 seconds cooldown for 4.25 seconds before you can fire again.

Notice something wrong here? More ammo just ignores the problem; no one carries lasers because they are too slow.

Edited by Koniving, 18 August 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[Steel Claws]

I carry six tons of AC 5 ammo on my Quad AC 5 Jager and it isnt near enough. It wasn't even enough with 8 mans. I almost always run out.

[Taemien]

I'm kind of on the fence about this. I understand 12v12 is making ammo shortages pop up. And if energy based weapons are doing what they currently do, then yes we need more ammo per ton.

Though I think energy weapons damage or dps can be toned down to indirectly buff ammo based weapons... but to stay competitive the users need to mount more ammo.

I'm of the opinion that putting on ammo should be a thought out choice. Not simply weight tacked on to a weapon. I'm of the same opinion on non-ammo based weapons where heatsinks should be thought over, not simply tacked on to the weight of energy weapons.

I'd like for the discussion to go towards that direction if possible. No one should be 'fine' with ammo. Ammo conservation IMO is just as important as heat control.

[Koniving]

Taemien, on 18 August 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Though I think energy weapons damage or dps can be toned down to indirectly buff ammo based weapons... but to stay competitive the users need to mount more ammo.

Ammo based weapons all shoot nearly twice as fast. All ammo based weapons are pinpoint damage. All ammo based weapons have triple their stated range. They vary from 270 to 750 meters for "optimum range." Caps out at 20 damage.

Counting only lasers here. Not counting small and small pulse as that's like counting machine guns.

Energy based weapons shoot around a 4 second interval. They are limited to 400 meters or less for most weapons, ER large gets 675 at heat greater than a PPC until just last patch. Energy weapons require a 0.6 to 1 second beam time that you must hold it on target after you fired to deal your damage. Caps out at 10.6 damage.

Now for a side by side. First shot fired at 0 seconds.
AC/5 fires once every 1.5 seconds. Deals 5 damage which is pinpoint. In 8 seconds it has dealt 45 damage.
Medium laser fires once every 4 seconds. Deals 5 damage which is spread. In 8 seconds it has dealt 10 (but in 9 seconds it'd deal 15 damage.)

AC/10 versus PPC versus large pulse, versus large laser
AC/10 fires once every 2.5 seconds. Deals 10 damage which is pinpoint. In 12 seconds it has dealt 50 damage.
PPC fires once every 4 seconds. Deals 10 damage which is pinpoint. In 12 seconds it has dealt 40 damage.
LPL fires once every 3.85 seconds. Deals 10.6 damage which is spread a little. In 12 seconds it has dealt 42.4 damage.
LL fires once every 4.25 seconds. Deals 9 damage which is spread a lot. In 12 seconds it has dealt 27 damage. (At 12.75 seconds it will fire for the fourth time. At 13.75 it will have finished firing for the 4th time and dealt a total of 36 damage).

You want energy weapons damage or dps tonned down? Are you insane? When is the last time you used a laser?

[RamsoPanzer]

We dont need more ammo, because we dont need overpowered weapons. People i know its difficult to run builds in 12v12, but that makes it challenging. Be better than others at it, manage good ur ammo: Success

[Sahoj]

Strange argument to take Koniving -
An AC10 weighs 12tons and most pilots will take a minimum 3 tons of ammo. This is a fifteen ton investment.

You can boat 2 PPC's, 2 LPL or 3 LL for this amount of weight and will probably have a faster mech because you took a minimum 250 rated engine for the 2.0 internal heatsinks.

I think the game can certainly spare allowing pilots to essentially free up one ton. Boating ballistics may save 2 or 3 tons.

Edited by Sahoj, 18 August 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Hexenhammer]

I'll keep my ammo at the same levels and use the freed up space for more armor and heatsinks.

[James The Fox Dixon]

As a stock broker will say, "Diversify, diversify, diversify!" You cannot build a mech around one or two ammunition based weapon system(s). You need diversity and utilize all of the hard points that a mech gives you. Yes, this means sacrificing your meta-ammo hog build for something that is sustainable for a long fight. This means you have to have energy weapons in addition to your meta-ammo hogs.

All of the mechs I've put together, with the exception of the Cat A1, I've had missile, energy, and ballistic slots filled in order to compensate for two-thirds of the options requiring ammunition. Guess what? It actually made me a better pilot and have a greater understanding of each weapon type's strengths and weaknesses. It also led to better heat management as a result. Granted, this definitely makes me not a One Click Wonder, but I never wanted to be one to begin with.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 18 August 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[Shadey99]

I am currently running Jagermechs and because of this I'm extremely AC heavy... Two of my Jagers run near stock builds: DD with 2 AC2 + 2 UAC 5 and S with 2 AC2 + 2 AC5. The DD runs 3 tons AC2 ammo and 5 tons UAC5 ammo, if I live through a whole game I'll run dry in the last 20% of it and typically do 500-800 damage with 2 ML as backups. The S runs 3 tons AC2 ammo and 3 tons AC 5 ammo with quad ML as backups that gets slightly less damage than the DD. My last Jager is a A running dual Gauss + 2 ML and having 6 tons of ammo which averages 300-500 damage (though I almost never live through a match in it).

All three designs could use about 20% more ammo to make it through a game, with SRM/LRM ammo doubled form TT I don't think doubling TT values is all that bad a thing.... Though 20% over current values would be fine for me, but it would give odd amounts. I also support ammo in 1/2 ton increments for AMS, MGs, and AC2s...

James The Fox Dixon, on 18 August 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

As a stock broker will say, "Diversify, diversify, diversify!" You cannot build a mech around one or two ammunition based weapon system(s). You need diversity and utilize all of the hard points that a mech gives you. Yes, this means sacrificing your meta-ammo hog build for something that is sustainable for a long fight. This means you have to have energy weapons in addition to your meta-ammo hogs.

This works fine on Assaults, but most Jagers cannot really utilize any heavy energy weapons without trading off most of their ballistics. Their energy slots are also low on the torso, which limits them. The only Jager without those issues is the Firebrand with it's dual arm energy hard points. I've seen a S run a dual PPC + dual LL build, but frankly it sucked because it cannot do things other Jagers can like hill humping.

Catapults have similar issues with their ballistics slots on the K2 (The only mixed platform) in the torso and the energy weapons in the arms.

My Cicadas have different issues, mounting a AC2, AC5, or UAC5 takes so much weight their energy weapons are light. My Spiders cannot even do that, they are just too small to effectively use even a AC2 without sacrificing their energy weapons.

My Highlanders however run very mixed builds with energy weapons, ballistics, and even missiles... But as shown above not every build can do that.

Edited by Shadey99, 18 August 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[Wolfways]

Sahoj, on 18 August 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Strange argument to take Koniving -
An AC10 weighs 12tons and most pilots will take a minimum 3 tons of ammo. This is a fifteen ton investment.

You can boat 2 PPC's, 2 LPL or 3 LL for this amount of weight and will probably have a faster mech because you took a minimum 250 rated engine for the 2.0 internal heatsinks.

I think the game can certainly spare allowing pilots to essentially free up one ton. Boating ballistics may save 2 or 3 tons.

Whenever someone brings up the weight differences it's funny how they always forget that energy weapons need a hell of a lot more heatsinks than ballistics.

[Sahoj]

How many DHS total are you running on your energy dependent builds - Wolfways?

On a note - I think most energy weapon balancing is good/I have no issue with their available power/DPS/weight.

I think ballistics could use a small increment increase in ammo per ton.

Edited by Sahoj, 18 August 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[Wolfways]

Sahoj, on 18 August 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

How many DHS total are you running on your energy dependent builds - Wolfways?

On a note - I think most energy weapon balancing is good/I have no issue with their available power/DPS/weight.

I think ballistics could use a small increment increase in ammo per ton.

My K2 (2xERPPC, 2xML, 2xMG) has 20DHS because that's all i can get in it.

[Vassago Rain]

Yes, please. I cannot physically carry enough ammo to last a 12 man game. It ends up with silly numbers, like 8 tons of LBX and 3 of SRM.