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Light Mechs, Speed+High Ping, No "light Weapons"= Why Play Anything Else?


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#121 Kunae

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:17 AM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 20 August 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Already been tested pretty extensively. Top competitive highlanders almost always beat top competitive lights. Lights only need to be viewable one or two times during the 1-2 minutes that it takes to kill a Highlander who can protect his vitals. It is just impossible to stay completely out of view for that long while the Highlander walks backwards, randomly twisting/turning until he gets his back up against a wall, using the increased jump jet turnspeed all the while.

Yep.

They only need to be lucky once.

#122 DemonRaziel

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:21 AM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 20 August 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:


Already been tested pretty extensively. Top competitive highlanders almost always beat top competitive lights. Lights only need to be viewable one or two times during the 1-2 minutes that it takes to kill a Highlander who can protect his vitals. It is just impossible to stay completely out of view for that long while the Highlander walks backwards, randomly twisting/turning until he gets his back up against a wall, using the increased jump jet turnspeed all the while.

I'm aware of that, I've had a fair share of my Lights blown to bits/legged by the well-known combo. :D I've also done the same to many Lights who thought it best to run straight at me, stop, or just move in an easily predictable fashion.

However, the OP and several other posters claim otherwise and back their claims up with their in game experience. Thus getting the chance to experience the gameplay at higher Elo might help them understand why Light 'Mechs are in no way perceived as the most powerful builds in the high Elo brackets and competitive 12mans (if such a thing is still happening; the few 12mans I've participated in so far were more of a "oh there's 12 of us here at the moment, let's try to find someone available in the 12man queue and see what happens" kind of thing).

#123 Taemien

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:30 AM

View PostTombstoner, on 20 August 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

A TT light cant go 1-1 with an atlas, in MWO they most definitely can. MWO is NOT TT.


Not true. I've seen a Commando force an Atlas pilot to eject in TT. The Commando was the only one engaging the Atlas for the scenario. The Atlas made a mistake and couldn't get away from the faster machine and couldn't get enough weapons on target to hit it with enough firepower to knock it away.

The person controlling that pilot no longer uses an Atlas. But an Owens instead. That should tell you something.

#124 TexAce

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:37 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 19 August 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Someone missed the AssaultWarrior memo?

Lights do get crushed.. however with the borked implementation of HSR, they are running a more rampant (whining about Spiders is the new meta). It is not impossible to hit them... it requires some patience and skill (both of which are in low supply and high demand).

On the other hand... it almost sounds to me that you haven't played lights... because it really isn't that easy to pilot one. Light mechs do not provide the instant gratification that a one-shot kill from a heavy or assault does in the current state of the game. That's the difference.


Every word here is qouted for truth. Every single one.
Spider plague is becoming noticable, patience is the only thing you need to counter them. Who freaks out when attacked by 2 spiders, loses.

#125 MaxStr

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:03 AM

I'm not sure what memo you think went around, but the issue isn't hitting them, it is hits not registering.

#126 Burktross

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:38 AM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 19 August 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:


Then you need to learn how to lag shoot. Again the problem is you not the lights.


I lolled so hard.

#127 Tombstoner

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:48 PM

View PostTaemien, on 20 August 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:


Not true. I've seen a Commando force an Atlas pilot to eject in TT. The Commando was the only one engaging the Atlas for the scenario. The Atlas made a mistake and couldn't get away from the faster machine and couldn't get enough weapons on target to hit it with enough firepower to knock it away.

The person controlling that pilot no longer uses an Atlas. But an Owens instead. That should tell you something.

Sigh, yes it's technically possible due to the rules of probability and the power creep that entered the game over time. A commando of 3070 would be superior to one from 3025. The increase in fire power from advanced tech outclassed armor protection from what i remember. i got disgusted when they added in acid rounds.... so yes a commando could go 1-1 with 3070 ish tech. 3025 nope... i give it no chance unless the scenario some how favored it.

The same situation will arise when clan tech enter the game. yes everything will get a bump in power but when in the hand of a skill light pilot it will be more powerful then in the hand of an assault pilot. again its much easier to hit large targets and armor protection is not keeping up with fire power. yes this view doesnt take into account what happens across the ELO band.

one shouldn't focus on the higher levels if the majority of PGI money is coming from lower ELO's who do you think PGI will take care of? So please don't loose sight of the effects stronger lights will have on the lower- mid ELO game and dismiss it as irrelevant. people complaine about the spider already and thats mostly from HSR. add in more speed however and the issue will get worse.

#128 James The Fox Dixon

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostTombstoner, on 20 August 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Sigh, yes it's technically possible due to the rules of probability and the power creep that entered the game over time. A commando of 3070 would be superior to one from 3025. The increase in fire power from advanced tech outclassed armor protection from what i remember. i got disgusted when they added in acid rounds.... so yes a commando could go 1-1 with 3070 ish tech. 3025 nope... i give it no chance unless the scenario some how favored it.

The same situation will arise when clan tech enter the game. yes everything will get a bump in power but when in the hand of a skill light pilot it will be more powerful then in the hand of an assault pilot. again its much easier to hit large targets and armor protection is not keeping up with fire power. yes this view doesnt take into account what happens across the ELO band.

one shouldn't focus on the higher levels if the majority of PGI money is coming from lower ELO's who do you think PGI will take care of? So please don't loose sight of the effects stronger lights will have on the lower- mid ELO game and dismiss it as irrelevant. people complaine about the spider already and thats mostly from HSR. add in more speed however and the issue will get worse.


Umm dude, when I played it was 3025 only (hated the Clans) and I saw lights take out Atlases regularly. Especially, when you have an average pilot in an Atlas facing against an elite pilot in a Locust.

Let me guess, you don't think that a Wasp LAM should be able to take an assault mech either.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 20 August 2013 - 12:57 PM.


#129 Taemien

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostTombstoner, on 20 August 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Sigh, yes it's technically possible due to the rules of probability and the power creep that entered the game over time. A commando of 3070 would be superior to one from 3025. The increase in fire power from advanced tech outclassed armor protection from what i remember. i got disgusted when they added in acid rounds.... so yes a commando could go 1-1 with 3070 ish tech. 3025 nope... i give it no chance unless the scenario some how favored it.

The same situation will arise when clan tech enter the game. yes everything will get a bump in power but when in the hand of a skill light pilot it will be more powerful then in the hand of an assault pilot. again its much easier to hit large targets and armor protection is not keeping up with fire power. yes this view doesnt take into account what happens across the ELO band.

one shouldn't focus on the higher levels if the majority of PGI money is coming from lower ELO's who do you think PGI will take care of? So please don't loose sight of the effects stronger lights will have on the lower- mid ELO game and dismiss it as irrelevant. people complaine about the spider already and thats mostly from HSR. add in more speed however and the issue will get worse.


Both mechs in the scenario were using 3050 technology, just as we are in MWO. The campaign is just now hitting 3062, the example before was pre-clan invasion (well right during first wave). So no, the advanced 3070 stuff didn't cause what happened. The Atlas was lured into unfavorable terrain and the Commando attacked from angles and such that made it have the advantage. Its speed allowed it to stay that way. If it lost initiative it put itself out of LOS of the Atlas. If it won the initiative it got behind the Atlas.

As for ELO, I don't see how that applies, winning in a Light raises your ELO and you end up against harder opponents.

#130 Tombstoner

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:21 PM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 20 August 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:


Umm dude, when I played it was 3025 only (hated the Clans) and I saw lights take out Atlases regularly. Especially, when you have an average pilot in an Atlas facing against an elite pilot in a Locust.

Let me guess, you don't think that a Wasp LAM should be able to take an assault mech either.

Sigh.... when you give lights the advantage yes they can win.... go stock with regular pilots and see what happens.
LAM's where removed from the game for a reason, but i'll go with the thought experiment.
and again if you give the light the advantage(18 hex glide) then yes it can win. play it stock 1-1 and see what happens.

A wasp lam could take out an atlas.... i find it highly unlikely with 3025 rules. definitely not with 3070 load outs.
but trying to bolster a MWO view that lights "should" be able to beat assaults based on TT flavor text is absurd. MWO is not TT. two completely different games at this point. all that's left are names, dates and stylized versions of art. game play is none existant.

Odd's of probability favor a could win situation, but you shouldn't use the term "should" win in a TT context between a 20 ton and 100 ton mech full armed in working order with similarly skilled opponents on neutral ground. neutral being one that doesn't favor one or the other. this is how you base line game balance... then add in other factor like gunnery and terrain and see the effects on the out come.

OOP's My bad they brought LAM's back

Edited by Tombstoner, 20 August 2013 - 01:28 PM.


#131 stjobe

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:41 PM

It's easy, really: In BT, as well as in MWO, the player that can leverage his advantages better than the opposition can leverage theirs will win a one on one - no matter if one is a light and the other an assault. Smart play trumps weight any day.

If a light can use its speed and maneuverability to minimize his time in the assault's fire arcs, what reason is there to deny it a fully deserved victory just because it happens to be lighter?

It's not a contest between tonnages, it's a contest between players; the one that plays better should win. There shouldn't be any artificial limits to a players ability to win, nor should there be increased chances to win based on tonnage. A game that works like that - or even strives to work that way - is not a balanced or competitive game.

It baffles me that people can even say things like "lights shouldn't be able to win against assaults" - I must suppose they are assault pilots and just don't want to risk the chance of losing against a better opponent. To you I say: Go play another game, PvP games are not for you.

#132 James The Fox Dixon

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostTombstoner, on 20 August 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Sigh.... when you give lights the advantage yes they can win.... go stock with regular pilots and see what happens.
LAM's where removed from the game for a reason, but i'll go with the thought experiment.
and again if you give the light the advantage(18 hex glide) then yes it can win. play it stock 1-1 and see what happens.

A wasp lam could take out an atlas.... i find it highly unlikely with 3025 rules. definitely not with 3070 load outs.
but trying to bolster a MWO view that lights "should" be able to beat assaults based on TT flavor text is absurd. MWO is not TT. two completely different games at this point. all that's left are names, dates and stylized versions of art. game play is none existant.

Odd's of probability favor a could win situation, but you shouldn't use the term "should" win in a TT context between a 20 ton and 100 ton mech full armed in working order with similarly skilled opponents on neutral ground. neutral being one that doesn't favor one or the other. this is how you base line game balance... then add in other factor like gunnery and terrain and see the effects on the out come.

OOP's My bad they brought LAM's back


LAMs were never removed from the game. The art for the original LAMs were removed.

You say that a light mech should never, ever win in TT and yet it happens all the time using 3025 era equipment. You are just wrong to believe that.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 20 August 2013 - 01:51 PM.


#133 Tombstoner

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:06 PM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 20 August 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:


LAMs were never removed from the game. The art for the original LAMs were removed.

You say that a light mech should never, ever win in TT and yet it happens all the time using 3025 era equipment. You are just wrong to believe that.


No i say its highly improbable for a 1-1, that is completely different then never. The situation affects the outcome. Your saying a commando with no advantages beats an atlas all the time ( by all i infer frequently not 100% but more then 50-50) so you have a single light fighting a single atlas often?

If your Inferring that a random TT game of multiple mechs of some gross tonnage and unknown situation can determine that a 20 ton light is equivalent of a 100 tone atlas.... Edited to be polite. this is a discussion based on personal experiences after all.

Others have cited that its possible and i concede that it is possible, but there are situational advantages that favored the light.
take those away and i'm speaking from personal experience. me and a friend took 4 wasps, 4 locusts, 4 stingers vs 1 atlas 3025 rules for the fun of it. From what your describing the atlas should get owned: it doesn't. dont forget the 2x rear facing ML's and the rear firing arc really packs them in. the atlas can 180 with 3 movement points. this creates havoc for the lights if your in an open field. Remember one ac-20 can core a light in 3025 TT basically your rolling 8's to hit on 2d6.

When MWO ported the game it gave lights a huge advantage as the OP has stated and wonders why people dont play them all the time. The reason changes from one ELO level range to the next. The higher you are the less you see them, gunnery skill is high. but lower ELO's QQ about 4x spiders being OP. others state the once HSR is fixed correctly this will go away. i partially agree.

why i partially agree is that max speed will someday be increasing and HSR may break again when that happens.
but more importantly when you increase the max speed, lights and only lights benefit. this will make them incrementally harder to kill. for everyone. the effects to be determine later presumed lesser for higher ELO's.

For the purpose of this post adding in clan tech and higher moment speeds will give low to mid ELO Players a fit. So the OP point is once again valid for low to mid ELO.

#134 DemonRaziel

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:34 PM

Okay, srsly, if there's 22 more guys willing to form 2 12mans and just spectate, I'm willing to challenge the OP and his supporters one at a time:

Pick a Light you want and choose an Assault I bring from this list: Awesomen, Victor, Highlander - 2 best out of three.
Next games you bring an Assault you want and choose any Light I'm should bring (not a particular variant, just a particular chasssi)..

You grab 11 guys, I grab other 11 more, we drop against each other and record the match on FRAPS, if possible.
Now for the volunteers to spectate...

#135 BookWyrm

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostDemonRaziel, on 20 August 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Okay, srsly, if there's 22 more guys willing to form 2 12mans and just spectate, I'm willing to challenge the OP and his supporters one at a time:

Pick a Light you want and choose an Assault I bring from this list: Awesomen, Victor, Highlander - 2 best out of three.
Next games you bring an Assault you want and choose any Light I'm should bring (not a particular variant, just a particular chasssi)..

You grab 11 guys, I grab other 11 more, we drop against each other and record the match on FRAPS, if possible.
Now for the volunteers to spectate...

Posted Image

#136 DemonRaziel

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:25 PM

View PostBookWyrm, on 20 August 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Posted Image

What's written there?

#137 One Medic Army

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:27 PM

View PostDemonRaziel, on 20 August 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

What's written there?

It's the THUNDERDOME.
Two forumwarriors enter, one forumwarrior leaves

#138 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostJames The Fox Dixon, on 20 August 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:


Umm dude, when I played it was 3025 only (hated the Clans) and I saw lights take out Atlases regularly. Especially, when you have an average pilot in an Atlas facing against an elite pilot in a Locust.

Let me guess, you don't think that a Wasp LAM should be able to take an assault mech either.

With triple the Move rate in LAM mode? It would have to be the sickest Atlas Pilot alive!!!

#139 Taemien

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 07:44 PM

What's all this talk of LAMs? Holy {Scrap} this community would never cease the complaining if any sort of Air asset was put into the game. Even the MWLL community whined about them for at least three or more 40+ page threads about it. And that was like a 150 man community, not a couple o'thousand. Then to think of a Mech that could hover and fly... especially in my hands (I was a good enough aerojock in MWLL to make people curse at me in chat).

View Poststjobe, on 20 August 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

It's easy, really: In BT, as well as in MWO, the player that can leverage his advantages better than the opposition can leverage theirs will win a one on one - no matter if one is a light and the other an assault. Smart play trumps weight any day.

If a light can use its speed and maneuverability to minimize his time in the assault's fire arcs, what reason is there to deny it a fully deserved victory just because it happens to be lighter?

It's not a contest between tonnages, it's a contest between players; the one that plays better should win. There shouldn't be any artificial limits to a players ability to win, nor should there be increased chances to win based on tonnage. A game that works like that - or even strives to work that way - is not a balanced or competitive game.

It baffles me that people can even say things like "lights shouldn't be able to win against assaults" - I must suppose they are assault pilots and just don't want to risk the chance of losing against a better opponent. To you I say: Go play another game, PvP games are not for you.


Its not often I like a post, but this one is well said. Its down to Player vs Player, not weight vs weight.

I really do think people have a 'protect my own interest/butt' mentality in these discussions. I've seen it when Medium mechs come up in discussions. They come out and say there needs to be weight balancing. I give methods on how to make Mediums better. They go silent or scoff at the idea of mediums being a threat.

Its like these players love their assault mechs. Want less people in assaults, using arguments like 'weight balancing' to get other poor smucks in the lighter machines, and then get hosed by their assaults. I know for some this point could be turned around. But not for me since my favored weight class is Heavy followed by Lights. And truth be told, assault mechs comprise the majority of my mechbays.

I wish someone could prove me wrong. But with all these arguments against Lights being able to go toe to toe with heavier machines, it leads me to believe not. I mean 1 Player should equal 1 Player. MWLL had this philosophy when it came to BattleArmor and VTOLs. In BattleTech a single BA or VTOL has no chance vs a mech. But in MWLL, they set it up so that even if you were in one of those assets you were equal in threat to anyone else whether they were in a Tank, Mech, or Fighter.

This even extended to weight classes. Your typical Assault/Heavy lover in this thread would absolutely flip the F-- out if they ever encountered a Puma, Bushwhacker, or Hollander in MWLL.

#140 Corwin Vickers

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:35 PM

Red crosshairs tell you that your client thinks you hit, it does not tell you the server thinks you hit.

Obviously this is true since the server does not register the hit.

If you have crappy ping then you need to learn where you need to aim to make them take damage. And that is damage that shows up on their paperdoll, not explosions you see or red flashes on your crosshairs.





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