140 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

Asian Tupac, on 19 August 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

So the other day I was thinking about this and I tried out a spider to see if lights truly are as OP as people stated. This was my first time ever playing a light mech and bear in mind I had no masteries of any sort. The results speak for themselves.

I guess I was wrong, spiders are just is terribad and not OP in the slightest bit.............
Definitely does NOT need a nerf
/sarcasm

It's worth noting that since you've never played a light before, your light mech Elo score was still at the baseline.

[Wolfways]

PEEFsmash, on 19 August 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Hey hey. Why don't you try running a full team of lights against a standard heavy/assault team, and you will find out why this is easily the most misguided inapplicable theorycraft post I have seen on these forums in months.

I've seen that three times in the past month.
One team had eight lights. Another had nine lights. Another was all lights.
All three times the lights ripped apart the other team in less than 5 minutes.

Oh, and i have two assaults. Stalker and Atlas, and they are by far the weakest mechs i have.

Edited by Wolfways, 19 August 2013 - 03:20 PM.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 19 August 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Oh, and i have two assaults. Stalker and Atlas, and they are by far the weakest mechs i have.

Then let me be the one that breaks it to you: You're not playing them right.

Edit: Wow, that sounded trollish. Skip down two posts for a clarification

Edited by stjobe, 19 August 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 19 August 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Then let me be the one that breaks it to you: You're not playing them right.

In that case not many people are. Assaults are the easiest class in the game for me to kill in my heavies. Well...maybe mediums are easier...

Oh yeah, and the K2

Edited by Wolfways, 19 August 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 19 August 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

In that case not many people are. Assaults are the easiest class in the game for me to kill in my heavies. Well...maybe mediums are easier...

Oh yeah, and the K2

Let me expand on my previous statement a bit, so as not to come off too trollish:

I'm a light pilot by preference; I'm crazy enough to have mastered five different Commandos. I have exactly one assault 'mech: My Founder Atlas. It's barely touched in over a year; I've gotten the Basic efficiencies, but that's about it. So today I looked at it and though "what the hell, let's give it a spin" for the first time in over a month.

What a ride! I forgot I had dual ASRM-6s until half the match was gone, I had serious problems controlling my heat, and man, is that thing ever sluggish! I must have missed half my shots just because I forgot which weapon fired at the torso cross-hair and which at the arm one.

I still walked out of that match alive, with two kills and seven assists.

Sure, Elo plays a part in that, but if your assaults feel weak I assure you it isn't the fault of the 'mech; it's all down to the pilot. I see extremely deadly assault pilots every day, and as the above should show you, even a poor assault pilot like myself can walk off the field with a couple of kills and a nice bag of CB and XP.

Edited by stjobe, 19 August 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Taemien]

stjobe, on 19 August 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Which stands to reason, since it's mostly the Assault-only pilots that have trouble with light 'mechs, and tend to complain that lights are OP. It all reminds me of the old "Rock is fine, nerf Scissors" thing for some reason.

Sort of. Except you and I both know that it isn't a rock/paper/scissors mechanic in MWO. But you point that out in your next post:

stjobe, on 19 August 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Sure, Elo plays a part in that, but if your assaults feel weak I assure you it isn't the fault of the 'mech; it's all down to the pilot. I see extremely deadly assault pilots every day, and as the above should show you, even a poor assault pilot like myself can walk off the field with a couple of kills and a nice bag of CB and XP.

I haven't seen the issue when piloting my Assaults. I have a few Atlases, a Stalker, and an Awesome. Friend of mine runs an Atlas almost exclusively, I think he has a regular stock 300 engine in it. He's got no issues with Lights.

I typically pilot heavies personally. I have Catapults, Jagermechs, and Cataphracts. However.. I can attest that I am not using FOTM configs. So that might have something to do with it. For example my Jagermech has 2x Medium Lasers, 2x SRM6, and 2x AC5s. Not something you normally see most use, but throws any would be skirmishers for a loop. But the point is, lights aren't an issue for me either.

I think this has to do with my ability to pilot a Light Mech. I've been called 'dangerous' by other players in these very forums in a light mech in the past. Because of my experience I know the capabilities and limitations of the light mech roles. I don't think many assault mech pilots have this experience. Thus they have no clue how to exploit their weaknesses.

The best way to learn how to counter a threat in any game is to play and master it.

[Caswallon]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 August 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

FTFY

When you can alpha a shutdown spider or commando at near PBR (100-150 meters) and regularly score ZERO damage, skill suddenly has little to do with the situation.

I have been that spider

(Damn'd if I'll pay 1.5 mil on doubles for a Spider - v)

So yeah its fun right now but eventually things should balance better, something not right as it is.
But until they fix it Talley Ho!

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

One Medic Army, on 19 August 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

It's worth noting that since you've never played a light before, your light mech Elo score was still at the baseline.

Is there any documentation from PGI that states there are different ELO brackets for each weight of mech?
If there is, would you care to provide as proof?

Vodrin Thales, on 19 August 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Ya, one kill per match and less than 200 damage per match is pretty OP. I barely averaged twice that while leveling my Yen-Lo (and everyone knows how OP those things are).

This was addressed in my previous post, the point is I am able to influence the outcome of the game far more as a spider than any other mech I have played.

[stjobe]

Asian Tupac, on 19 August 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Is there any documentation from PGI that states there are different ELO brackets for each weight of mech?
If there is, would you care to provide as proof?

Ask the Devs 33 - Answered!:

Quote

HammerSwarm: Are there any plans to modify ELO for new mechs so that when I purchase a new mech I am unfamiliar with and don't have optimized I am not thrown to the wolves of my regular elo?

A: No. You have 4 Elo scores, 1 per class (Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault).

Edited by stjobe, 19 August 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The problem isn't light mechs. Rather, it's a combination of buggy hit registration (mostly with Spiders for some reason) and players not knowing how to fight lights. It's amplified when a group of light pilots work in a wolf pack and cut someone out of the enemy herd to take on 3 or 4 v 1.

The first issue will be fixed over time. We've had times where it was really bad (worse than now), times when it was really good (immediately after HSR first went live), and everything in between.

The second issue might improve if we get a tutorial with sufficient depth, but other than that it's a matter of experience, whether learning by doing or watching people who know what to do.

Integrated voice comms will help a lot with any of the small unit problems that PUGs run in to.

As for how to handle a light when driving something big and slow, it's actually pretty easy (so long as it's one or two lights only; more and you're out of luck unless you get really lucky with leg shots or decapitations).

1 - Reverse throttle. This forces them to move in your forward arc for longer periods of time when trying to circle you.

2 - Keep your arms unlocked. If you have discreetly mobile arms, then having them unlocked is key for fighting lights. My preference is to put lasers on my arms and use them to take out the leg armor on lights that fight me. It doesn't mean you don't use other weapons, but the arms are by far more responsive and thus more accurate against lights who are in close and moving fast.

3 - Turn in the same direction as the light's movement when they enter your field of view, but switch as they start to leave it. This minimizes their ability to get behind you and maximizes your time on target. When you force them to have an abbreviated rear approach and catch them running back in front of you they often make mistakes, not anticipating that your guns will hit them (running in straight lines, for instance). This is most potent when also moving backwards.

4 - When all else fails, put your back to a high wall. If you can't manage to outmaneuver them (mostly a problem if there are too many on you at once), then remove maneuver as an issue. Back up to a wall, or better yet back in to a corner. Limit their approaches to where you can shoot them if they show themselves. But be sure to back up to something tall enough that a light with JJs can't get behind you and shoot down.

[Khobai]

Quote

Read the Warrior Trilogy, specifically the fight between Cochraine's Goliaths and the Davion Light Guard.

Battletech novels are known for being full of over-the-top BS.

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

stjobe, on 19 August 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Ask the Devs 33 - Answered!:

Well thank you for the information.
However the ELO system starts you in the middle of the ELO rating not the bottom. Therefore it shows that average players still fail against an OP light.

My point still remains that the spider is extremely strong in this meta.

As I have stated before its not necessarily because of a NEW hitreg issue. The issue has existed for awhile, but the recent ability for them to dish out high DPS with MGs coupled with the nerfing of streaks as an effective anti-light weapon has been a side-effect buff.

Edited by Asian Tupac, 19 August 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Asian Tupac, on 19 August 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Well thank you for the information.
My point still remains that the spider is extremely strong in this meta.

Actually, stjobe proved your view wrong. You were fighting low ELO players that didn't have a chance against your skills.

[FunkyFritter]

Imperius, on 19 August 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

They run around at very high speeds, and can carry most of all the weapons any medium or heavy can. Sure they can't carry as many, but it doesn't really matter cause with almost every weapon you fire you only fire them one at a time.

What game are you playing?

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

James The Fox Dixon, on 19 August 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Actually, stjobe proved your view wrong. You were fighting low ELO players that didn't have a chance against your skills.

So when I come back in a few days and my scores are still high does that mean you will admit that you are a bad player and go away?

EDIT: According to the ELO ratings system, you start in the MIDDLE not the bottom of the ELO range. What that means is I was fighting average players now lot ELO players. What's your point now?

Edited by Asian Tupac, 19 August 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Asian Tupac, on 19 August 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

So when I come back in a few days and my scores are still high does that mean you will admit that you are a bad player and go away?

I'm not a bad player and I've never been one. At the beginning of open beta, my kdr was 5:1 and my win/loss ratio was 98%.

[Joseph Mallan]

Asian Tupac, on 19 August 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

So when I come back in a few days and my scores are still high does that mean you will admit that you are a bad player and go away?

To get a better feel you would need to go a few weeks to get your Elo stable.

[Deathlike]

stjobe, on 19 August 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Ask the Devs 33 - Answered!:

I found that when I was challenged about how ELO worked... I remember this discussion explicitly (but you know, PGI and forum info disappear like farts into the wind)..

The problem with the MM is that it still lumps you in with the vets.. so if you're already a good pilot, starting at low ELO can be a blessing. If you're a bad pilot, you'll be struggling for a bit until there is a "equilibrium".

That is what PGI/MWO's MM has taught me...

[PEEFsmash]

Asian Tupac, on 19 August 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

So when I come back in a few days and my scores are still high does that mean you will admit that you are a bad player and go away?

EDIT: According to the ELO ratings system, you start in the MIDDLE not the bottom of the ELO range. What that means is I was fighting average players now lot ELO players. What's your point now?

Fighting average players is meaningless. Balance is only relevant when you are playing against the best competition, aka people who can position themselves and aim, know how to counter the various builds and strategies, and can make the most out of their weapons. I could make any light look broken overpowered in mid-level Elo if I could artificially keep it that low.

Why don't you maintain your 5:1 win ratio after 300 games and report back. At that point, your Elo will be top-level, and then we can see how overpowered your spider is. (Hint: Not overpowered.)

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 August 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[Haji1096]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 19 August 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

The problem isn't light mechs. Rather, it's a combination of buggy hit registration (mostly with Spiders for some reason) and players not knowing how to fight lights. It's amplified when a group of light pilots work in a wolf pack and cut someone out of the enemy herd to take on 3 or 4 v 1.

The first issue will be fixed over time. We've had times where it was really bad (worse than now), times when it was really good (immediately after HSR first went live), and everything in between.

The second issue might improve if we get a tutorial with sufficient depth, but other than that it's a matter of experience, whether learning by doing or watching people who know what to do.

Integrated voice comms will help a lot with any of the small unit problems that PUGs run in to.

As for how to handle a light when driving something big and slow, it's actually pretty easy (so long as it's one or two lights only; more and you're out of luck unless you get really lucky with leg shots or decapitations).

1 - Reverse throttle. This forces them to move in your forward arc for longer periods of time when trying to circle you.

2 - Keep your arms unlocked. If you have discreetly mobile arms, then having them unlocked is key for fighting lights. My preference is to put lasers on my arms and use them to take out the leg armor on lights that fight me. It doesn't mean you don't use other weapons, but the arms are by far more responsive and thus more accurate against lights who are in close and moving fast.

3 - Turn in the same direction as the light's movement when they enter your field of view, but switch as they start to leave it. This minimizes their ability to get behind you and maximizes your time on target. When you force them to have an abbreviated rear approach and catch them running back in front of you they often make mistakes, not anticipating that your guns will hit them (running in straight lines, for instance). This is most potent when also moving backwards.

4 - When all else fails, put your back to a high wall. If you can't manage to outmaneuver them (mostly a problem if there are too many on you at once), then remove maneuver as an issue. Back up to a wall, or better yet back in to a corner. Limit their approaches to where you can shoot them if they show themselves. But be sure to back up to something tall enough that a light with JJs can't get behind you and shoot down.

The other thing I want to add to this, is if you are fighting a light in cover, try to predict where the light mech is going to be so you can have your crosshairs already centered on that location.

This is easier to do if you already have experience piloting a light mech.