140 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

PEEFsmash, on 19 August 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

I could make any light look broken overpowered in mid-level Elo if I could artificially keep it that low.

How do you know your ELO?

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

PEEFsmash, on 19 August 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Fighting average players is meaningless. Balance is only relevant when you are playing against the best competition, aka people who can position themselves and aim, know how to counter the various builds and strategies, and can make the most out of their weapons. I could make any light look broken overpowered in mid-level Elo if I could artificially keep it that low.

Why don't you maintain your 5:1 win ratio after 300 games and report back. At that point, your Elo will be top-level, and then we can see how overpowered your spider is. (Hint: Not overpowered.)

Thanks for proving my point.

In this as in all online games there is a wide gulf in between skilled players and average players but it is foolish to only balance the game for the top tier while ignoring the majority of the playerbase that is not. I do not assert at all that I would be able to dominate with a spider in my natural ELO the way that I am beating up on average players, my whole point is that a spider can be piloted effectively and dominate with little to no effort at an average ELO.

The goal from a developers standpoint is to take out or fix stuff like this because it can be "anti-fun" to the largest portion of the playerbase. If you are a good player and play at the highest ELO bracket, a slight nerf to the spider's survivability will not effect you in any way, so why would you even care?

Edited by Asian Tupac, 19 August 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[HereticalPsycho]

Asian Tupac, on 19 August 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

The goal from a developers standpoint is to take out or fix stuff like this because it can be "anti-fun" to the largest portion of the playerbase. If you are a good player and play at the highest ELO bracket, a slight nerf to the spider's survivability will not effect you in any way, so why would you even care?

your right that the dev's should be looking at "anti-fun" elements for tuning (removal as a absolute worst case) but if the spiders increased survivability is due to dysfunctional hit registration the dev's actually cannot touch the spider or any mechs affected by it at all. Its much better to fix hit registration and then see if the spider is still too hard to kill. Fixing the root of the problem seems better then just accounting for it to me.

[Imperius]

Well regardless I was not aware that the hit registration was messed up, but now that I am I'll remain more calm about the situation till I see they claimed they fixed it.

[Taemien]

Khobai, on 19 August 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Battletech novels are known for being full of over-the-top BS.

Novel or not, but units like the Eradani Light Horse and Davion Light Guards RCT have tons of light mechs and do well against other machines in the Lore. In TT I've been able to demolish heavier machines even with equal numbers for the last 14 years. In MechWarrior I've been able to demolish heavier machines for the last 15 years.

Just being heavier doesn't mean you get to win. In fact if I'm behind the controls. You're probably going to lose. Course with this community, thats going to happen no matter what mech I'm in.

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

HereticalPsycho, on 19 August 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

your right that the dev's should be looking at "anti-fun" elements for tuning (removal as a absolute worst case) but if the spiders increased survivability is due to dysfunctional hit registration the dev's actually cannot touch the spider or any mechs affected by it at all. Its much better to fix hit registration and then see if the spider is still too hard to kill. Fixing the root of the problem seems better then just accounting for it to me.

I agree with you completely, however from past experience with PGI a comprehensive fix like this could take a long time. I would prefer a slight hitbox enlargement as a bandaid fix. (ex: Raven)

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lights are very difficult to play.

One of the first skills you have to learn is how to navigate the terrain while running 130+ kph and this is not as easy as it seems. First you have to have excellent awareness of the terrain plus always have an eye on your escape routes. Getting hung up on terrain will get you killed 9 times out of 10.

The Second skill you have to learn is how to fire and hit a moving target while your running 130+ kph, again not as easy as it sounds. For example, try running 145 kph while holding a 1 second pulse of medium lasers on another moving target running anywhere from 50-150 kph, all the while navigating terrain efficiently.

The third skill, depending on the light is how to do all that but now add jumping around like a maniac while still hitting targets and making sure you don't get hung up on terrain.

The fourth skill is learning how to time and avoid enemy firing while performing the first 3 skill effectively.

Then, and only then, once you master all this, can you too actually be successful as a light mech pilot.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 20 August 2013 - 12:45 AM.

[kf envy]

i use meduim class only and i have no problem taking on heavy and assults but one spider forget it 8 small laser or 5 medium and 2 SRM6 are worth less against them to the point if i run into a spider and nothing is regestering on the hits an there no other friendly mech around i just say *^(*^ it hit the P key ask my self why there no ejection system in the game yet an walk away for 2 min then start a new game

Edited by kf envy, 20 August 2013 - 01:51 AM.

[Riptor]

Despite if lights are "op" or not... (they are not.. its just bugs atm making them survive longer then they would without the game running as it should be, not the light mechs fault)

A lot of people where stating that the eridani light horses where using all light mechs and where fontline fighters... wich is not entirely correct.

The eridanis did use almost exclusivly light mechs however they where not a traditional front line unit. They also rarely fought alone in big conflicts (sucession wars etc) when deployed, being supported by other house and/or merc regiments, they also fielded infantry and armored vehicle support and had a very impressive array of drop ships. But most importantly i dont remember them being tasked with hitting any "hard targets" Well garrisoned and fortified worlds where not on their agenda, atleast not on their own.

But the most important thing is this:

The eridani light horses where an anomaly. They where not the norm, they where highly skilled, overly specialized and the best of the best the inner sphere had to offer when it came to light pilots.

Thing is they where not invulnarable and in the end got their rears handed to them by the goliath scorpions. They also lost the Capellan st. ives war

They where good, but they where not unbeatable.

There are way to many situations that light mechs cant handle, like assaulting a fortified position where you need massive firepower and standing qualities rather then speed.

The eridanis where used like a scalpel not like a broadsword... dont argue an anomaly as if it was the norm in an argument.. doesnt make you look superior.. it does however make you look like you have no idea about BT lore.

History has it that eridani light horses where at times viciously beaten when they encountered resistance from oponents that fielded way heavier mechs then them.

(Like the 19th striker regiment being utterly crushed by amaris forces after a traitor tipped the amaris forces off where their next raiding target would be)

So in the case of eridani light horses its not "front line fighting" its more of a "strike at the weak points" wich makes the idea that they allways had success with their specialisation in light mechs is a false one.

Edited by Riptor, 20 August 2013 - 03:29 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

Mystere, on 19 August 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Gee, here's another one of those thinly veiled "I got killed by xxx, nerf xxx" threads.

Don't be silly: it isn't veiled.

[Tombstoner]

James The Fox Dixon, on 19 August 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

There we go with the MWO isn't TT. The moment someone says that it tells me they don't have a clue when it comes to TT nor how it can be translated over into real time.

PGI's implementation of lights is fine since there is significant trouble in hitting a light. Lights swarming over a heavier mech should win unless the pilot is really experienced.

Its a legit comparison since your asking why a flavor text unit from TT can hold its own, but your doing it in the context of TT, MWO combat performance. your assessment of significant trouble in hitting a light is exactly why lights have received a significant combat bonus relative to TT.

PGI's implementation of light performance stems from the desire to have any weight class capable of killing any other class. PGI wants lights to = assaults in a 1-1 situation. in large groups the light is going to be running strait at someone. This is when the light is most vulnerable in MWO or standing still.

A TT light cant go 1-1 with an atlas, in MWO they most definitely can. MWO is NOT TT.

you where baiting the other forum poster with your question. How could a light merc unit like the ELH hold its own, possibly why he didn't respond, cause MWO is NOT TT.

I gave you my opinion. but it comes down to writers prerogative.

[DemonRaziel]

So sad this game does not have 1v1 mode I feel that sometimes that would be the easiest way to solve issues.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Tombstoner, on 20 August 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Its a legit comparison since your asking why a flavor text unit from TT can hold its own, but your doing it in the context of TT, MWO combat performance. your assessment of significant trouble in hitting a light is exactly why lights have received a significant combat bonus relative to TT.

PGI's implementation of light performance stems from the desire to have any weight class capable of killing any other class. PGI wants lights to = assaults in a 1-1 situation. in large groups the light is going to be running strait at someone. This is when the light is most vulnerable in MWO or standing still.

A TT light cant go 1-1 with an atlas, in MWO they most definitely can. MWO is NOT TT.

you where baiting the other forum poster with your question. How could a light merc unit like the ELH hold its own, possibly why he didn't respond, cause MWO is NOT TT.

I gave you my opinion. but it comes down to writers prerogative.

Actually, a 20 ton mech can take down an Atlas 1 on 1 in TT.

[Nema Nabojiv]

DemonRaziel, on 20 August 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

So sad this game does not have 1v1 mode I feel that sometimes that would be the easiest way to solve issues.

Moreover, every dispute the forum should and must end up in a honourabe zellbrigen duel between the opponents. And every user should be able to delete thread he dislikes through the Trial Of Refusal.

[Hexenhammer]

Poor spiders are just a patch away from being made obsolete.
I hope the locust makes it into the game before this is fixed or they'll become a thing legend.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Dymdr, on 20 August 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Moreover, every dispute the forum should and must end up in a honourabe zellbrigen duel between the opponents. And every user should be able to delete thread he dislikes through the Trial Of Refusal.

And if you had a crush on another user, you could claim them for yourself through a Trial of Possession.

[King Picollo]

I tend to have a few medium lasers on my builds and use them on strafing lights then unloading my main guns if the straighten up.

They are a struggle at times but if you stick with your team you shouldn't have that much of a problem. Combined fire always wins.

[Phodder]

I spend all my time in a light because I just started playing and as a free player that's all I can really afford. But, according to the QQ train, I thought it was heavy/assault snipers that everyone should be playing exclusively.

[DemonRaziel]

Dymdr, on 20 August 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Moreover, every dispute the forum should and must end up in a honourabe zellbrigen duel between the opponents. And every user should be able to delete thread he dislikes through the Trial Of Refusal.

Lorcan Lladd, on 20 August 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

And if you had a crush on another user, you could claim them for yourself through a Trial of Possession.

While I'm in no way opposed to the Clan Trials of Combat idea, what I had in mind is that a point such as "Lights are OP against heavy and heavier 'Mechs" would be much better proven/refuted by a simple challenge:

Bring a Light of your choice, I'll bring an Assault. Then we swap roles. Add in some spectators/record the fights to provide additional evidence and food for thought. That way it's easier to prove a point, whether the strength of a particular chassi is solely 'Mech-based, or if skill does indeed play a role in this.

[PEEFsmash]

DemonRaziel, on 20 August 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

While I'm in no way opposed to the Clan Trials of Combat idea, what I had in mind is that a point such as "Lights are OP against heavy and heavier 'Mechs" would be much better proven/refuted by a simple challenge:

Bring a Light of your choice, I'll bring an Assault. Then we swap roles. Add in some spectators/record the fights to provide additional evidence and food for thought. That way it's easier to prove a point, whether the strength of a particular chassi is solely 'Mech-based, or if skill does indeed play a role in this.

Already been tested pretty extensively. Top competitive highlanders almost always beat top competitive lights. Lights only need to be viewable one or two times during the 1-2 minutes that it takes to kill a Highlander who can protect his vitals. It is just impossible to stay completely out of view for that long while the Highlander walks backwards, randomly twisting/turning until he gets his back up against a wall, using the increased jump jet turnspeed all the while.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 20 August 2013 - 08:02 AM.