2021 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

I remember that one of the major reasons for 3PV was to help newbies get into the game - one of the big challenges of MW:O is seperate leg and torso direction and keeping track of that. 3PV would allow you to see your legs and enable you to see it in "reality"; basically, making it a bit easier.

Unfortunately, I find that I barely see my legs with the larger mechs (Jagermech, Highlander, Atlas) when I switch to 3PV.

Also I notice that I don't have a minimap and the crosshair is shaking a lot. This seem to be features that will make the game harder on newbies.

I understand that they might be there for balance reasons, but I think in practice, that this feature will not do much good for newbies. It might be useful on the training grounds or the tutorials with a more generous camera angle.

But a new player basically sees very, very little of his mech's legs, which looks to me like being just as hard then as trying to read the minimaps leg/torso orientation in the end, and he suffers a lot of drawbacks in turn. To avoid the drawbacks, he can switch vision mode, but that means you now force the noob to switch views regularly. Navigating the maps even if you know their layout without a map is pretty impractical, and a new player will not neccessarily be able to keep track where his comrades are going.

I see a lot of effort has been put into limiting this feature in the hope of balancing 3PV and 1PV, but it seems you lost the original purpose of 3PV - an easier mode for new players - in the process.
And yet you haven't actually fully fixed the balance issues - by switching between 1PV and 3PV, I can have the best of both worlds - the main advantage point being scouting and situational awareness by temporarily switching to 3PV to lure around corners without the enemy being able to shoot at you (he might see the drone, but he can't do anything about it, if you had only 1PV, you would need to leave cover and risk being shot) and using 1PV for everything else.
Also, mechs without lower arm actuators loses less than mechs without lower arm actuators, since the letter don't lose anything with arm lock.

It seems really better to go back to the segregation idea and actively lower the drawbacks of 3PV. Add the mini-map back in, increase the camera distance. Make the game work and be fun in pure 3PV mode*, and make the game work and be fun in 1PV mode.

If you can't do both, focus on one of them. If you really believe that you will gain more people then you lose by switching to 3PV, do that. Don't force a bad compromise on your game and risk losing players of either side!


*) That doesn't mean you need to remove 1PV from 3PV mode, you just need to stop making it a necessity.

[Jestun]

WM Zero, on 20 August 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

They would be great. I had the overlord and used the 30 days of premium time. They gave me a full refund as soon as I asked for it. A+ customer service on their behalf.

They were even nice enough to notify me that it was a limited time offer, and that I wouldn't be able to get the bonuses in the future; but were completely free to pre order it if my mind changed.

I bought Guild Wars 2 at launch.

Months later they started adding a new tier of gear, something they explicitly said would not happen when the game was in development and at launch (which was one of a few things, it also went from "progress any way that you want" to "the new tier of gear is only acquirable by farming the same dungeon again and again", etc).

They gave me a full refund when I sent in a support ticket asking for a refund because of the complete change of direction of the game and the fact that I am no longer within their target market.


I do not expect PGI to do that. I expect them to hold onto the money as tight as they possibly can.

Edited by Jestun, 21 August 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[Zeus X]

Rashkae, on 21 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

As Bryan so eloquently stated....

Here are the facts:

1. PGI, you lied to us.
2. You are in violation of http://www.competiti.../eng/03133.html because you clearly stated "facts" and one of those is that we WOULD NOT BE FORCED TO PLAY AGAINST 3PV PLAYERS. You have therefore misled your consumers.
3. One Dev with an elo score so low he never drops with experienced players and gets roflstomped by newbies should not be permitted to arbitrarily change his mind about facts.
4. Until you start keeping your promises, I will make sure to inform others NOT to spend MC based on "promises" from PGI because those "promises/facts" are actually lies.
5. Everyone here will just move to Star Citizen.

So, where can we request a full refund for all our MC/Founders/Phoenix packages? Since you defrauded us with your misleading statements.

Oh, and as for Bryan saying he's done discussing it: Dear Bryan and PGI, you made you non-paying, free-to-play fanbase happy with 3pv. But the people who pumped real money into the game? You just alienated all of us. In other companies, people who lie to their customers would get fired.

I am quoting this for the violation of Canada consumer laws.

[Azantia]

Awwww look...Russ "********" Bullock is upset...how cute.

[Tice Daurus]

http://mwomercs.com/...et-flamed-here/

Again, I'll post this for all of the people here who haven't seen this post and want to express their anger towards Russ' current stance on the issue. Please go here and post a LIKE to support my original post to show PGI how bad this really is for them.

[Kunae]

Tabrias07, on 21 August 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Do you think the Flea will ever be added to the game? As far as I'm concerned this game is not feature complete and still alpha until at least MASC is in. CW maybe, but it is just going to be a map on the website with "FIGHT FOR THIS PLANET AND GET +5% LOYALTY POINTS"

That sounds approximately like what I expect their version of "Community Warfare" to be.

Heavy Gear, on MPlayer back in the day, had a better system than that.

[Aleksander Wernersson]

I am not very upset about the advantages that 3rdPV very skilled pilots may get from. There are some, but less I did await.

What I think is the problem is the waste of time and manpower to produce such a gimmick-feature, while I think most of us are waiting for Clans/Clan-Tech!, CW!, bug-fixes in maps and balance, more maps, more weapons, game-modes - even decals or more camos or what ever...

And besides that PGI is in a apprehensive PR-situation due to developers communication and the way MWO has gone since the last year during beta (see #savemwo etc.), PGI annoys their base-community with that act of "disinformation" (VERY NICE SAID) about implementing 3rdPV. As I post this comment, you got 71 pages of anger. Less due to the nature of 3rdPV, but for your promises vs. information policy vs. MWO in fact.

Edited by Postman, 21 August 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[Darkblood]

DCM Zeus, on 21 August 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

Russ, not only do you look like an ******* with these twitter posts, but you are making the entire PGI staff look bad too.


This only solidifies how much you to don't give a rats a$$ about the community.

[Xelrah]

Oh PGI changed their mind and ignored community once more? I totally could not see it comming.

[Blyze]

AvatarofWhat, on 21 August 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

Thing is people have been posting such scenarios for 72 pages now, with pics and everything. But every couple of pages someone like you comes along yelling at us about being a bunch of whiners and ruining the community. So read the thread first. Heck read 10 pages and you will see enough to convince you unless you are the biggest white knight around.

I was lurking this thread since the start, knowing that 3PV going live would bring out a lot of opinionated posts. I didn't want to post anything until I'd read enough and played a few games in it to develop my own opinion. And no, the pics and first 80% of the thread are mostly PGI LIED!!!111 and pictures showing the vision advantage. Not understanding the minuate of mechwarrior and how a mere FOV angle advantage imparts gamebreaking abilities, I wanted to know more about how specifically it can be used unfairly.

This community seemed alright when I first came in, but its starting to get as bad as other MOBAs...

[Rashkae]

DCM Zeus, on 21 August 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

I am quoting this for the violation of Canada consumer laws.

"[color=#000000]Under the civil regime, the general provision prohibits all materially false or misleading representations. Other provisions specifically prohibit performance representations that are not based on adequate and proper tests, misleading warranties and guarantees, false or misleading ordinary selling price representations, untrue, misleading or unauthorized use of tests and testimonials, bait and switch selling, and the sale of a product above its advertised price. "[/color]

[color=#000000]I think other than the "advertised price" bit, everything highlighted in bold is pretty much what we're encountered so far. [/color]

[Wurzelkobold]

Tragos, on 20 August 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

Posted Today, 05:51 AM
Zephyr Charge, on 21 August 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

So; how long till you introduce Clans as a pay to play feature?

Cause I see that next.


No, they said they would never do that!











Oh...

Just what i thougt. Nice one!

Edited by Wurzelkobold, 21 August 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[von Pilsner]

DCM Zeus, on 21 August 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

For all who missed it, or tl;dr.


Russ not only makes himself look like a a$$-hole, but he makes PGI look like an a$$-hole too and to top it all off, he doesn't give a rats a$$ about the community, his own posts show this.

Here is a funny one from a while ago where Bryan details his plan to add third person to the game....

[MaxStr]

3PV offers no significant advantage? Is this about MWO?

[Zeus X]

von Pilsner, on 21 August 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Here is a funny one from a while ago where Bryan details his plan to add third person to the game....

I forgot about this one.

We should all dig up these old posts and hold PGI accountable for every moron action they have done.

I do believe some kind of legal action needs to be taken or reported in some way. I'm completely unfamiliar with Canadian laws, so if anyone here with a legal back ground could explain to us what we as consumers can do to hold PGI accountable for their actions.

[Bloody Moon]

Celarnor, on 21 August 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

That never occurred to me, no, and thank you for your explanation.

There's no need to be so hateful; I've only been playing MWO and lurking the board for about a month. I'm just trying to understand _why_ so many people dislike this seemingly innocuous change so much.

Maybe with more posts like yours that have substantive scenarios where the vision advantage can be abused, the 'armlock, throttle decay pug population' will understand why this is something that should be in a separate queue.

Fine, no hard feelings, didn't check that you were that new.

However what i said was only one of the dozens of scenarios that produce similar results, so let's just say 3PV in good hands is a weapon of mass destruction, more dangerous than any actual weapon in the game.

Please don't defend it if you are not fully aware of it's uses.

[Eagle vFv]

Does anybody really believe that new players playing a mech in 3pv will teach them the game faster let alone help them play better? On the contrary it will hinder their performance because they now have to be taught to shut off 3pv on start as well as have to learn the game all over in the proper view.

Celarnor, on 21 August 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Pretty much this. I don't get the hate, it seems broken and pretty useless to me. Can't adjust the camera at all to pan around your mech, let alone up or down. Sure can't fight in it with arms locked. Definitely can't jumpsnipe with it. Half the time you can't even see what you're shooting at.

Sure, with the drone above and behind you, you can maybe get like 2-5 degrees more FOV down over the crashed plane in Frozen City or hills in Alpine or whatever, but that's not anything you can't do already with seismic wallhack module.

They've made it so crappy that it isn't usable even for its intended purpose, and people are _still_ complaining.

To PGI and those of you that believe that this implementation is ok because there are both advantages and disadvantages with 3pv so it is balanced out: You're wrong.

Competitive players will merely use this for the advantages, which have been nicely depicted in the screen caps, and so when it comes time to actually play the game will switch back to 1pv. It's the option to toggle between the two modes that makes it so convenient. You can have all of the advantages of both views and take none of the disadvantages. This is just one more mechanic for newer and casual players to learn and yet the competitive players now get another edge over the less skilled players (spotting targets and their positions without exposing your mech). To the argument of "They can see you too", well if they're looking and if they're watching close enough for the small camera. Also maybe not so easy when you're on larger maps and distance between forces are greater... These are the subtleties that non-competitive players do not think about.

The more complexities you add to the game the larger the gap becomes between casual play and competitive play. The game does not need complex systems nor easy mode systems for balance. PGI, stop trying to level the playing field for the less skilled, despite your intentions it's breaking the game and killing the spirit of the community not to mention making you go back on your word.

Edited by Eagle Furey, 21 August 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Raistlic]

Quote

nd no, the pics and first 80% of the thread are mostly PGI LIED!!!111 and pictures showing the vision advantage. Not understanding the minuate of mechwarrior and how a mere FOV angle advantage imparts gamebreaking abilities, I wanted to know more about how specifically it can be used unfairly.

Again: The core discussion is not about the advantages of 3pv. They may be there or maybe not. We have some valid looking examples of how it could be abused. But that is not the point.

If people are willing to accept that kind of gameplay -perfectly fine. But those of us who dont want "extended" gameplay feel betrayed because we are FORCED to accept it. Even if we dont like it.

It's not the 3pv - it's the lack of freedom of choice: Seperate queues for both gamemodes. Just like I can opt for not playing conquest-mode if I dont want to.

[AvatarofWhat]

Celarnor, on 21 August 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I was lurking this thread since the start, knowing that 3PV going live would bring out a lot of opinionated posts. I didn't want to post anything until I'd read enough and played a few games in it to develop my own opinion. And no, the pics and first 80% of the thread are mostly PGI LIED!!!111 and pictures showing the vision advantage. Not understanding the minuate of mechwarrior and how a mere FOV angle advantage imparts gamebreaking abilities, I wanted to know more about how specifically it can be used unfairly.

This community seemed alright when I first came in, but its starting to get as bad as other MOBAs...

If you can't put together by yourself (vision advantage + switching freely between 1st and 3rd= bad) then you are not good(or even okay really) in regards to video games, in which case I apologize. Thats fine, everyone starts somewhere. Maybe we should have broken things down for you earlier. Maybe we should be breaking things down in the same way for Russ Bullock.

Being a member of one of the top competitive teams in this game I sometimes lose sight of the fact that others don't understand that information is the single most important aspect of this game. It can mean the difference between a close match and a 12-0 stomp. Between walking into an ambush and setting one up yourself. Between capping the enemy and getting capped. Between engaging snipers with your brawlers at close range, or engaging them at over a kilometer. or vice versa. Basically information is the number one determining factor in who wins and loses in competitive play and free information is basically cheating. Like wallhacking.

95% of this community did not want this as proven by a poll in which over 5000 mechwarrior voted. An unprecedented turnout for a forum poll. And they lied to us. Which is also a big deal. Now you can say its a game in development and subject to change, but assuming you spent some money on this and they change the game to a 2d sidescroller without notice would you be upset? If they can lie to us about this and change it why would I spend more money on this game.

Finally the reason it was implemented, to help new players, is a farce. No minimap, jerky reticule, not being able to see the legs, arm-lock, all these things make 3rd person much harder for a new player to get used to. So really its only usefull factor it to switch to and forth to get some free information.

So in short it breaks competitive play, it does not help new players, and they lied to us. Nothing good came out of this. I think we have a right to communicate we are upset as paying customers.

[Kaldor]

^^^^

I wish I could like something more than once