271 replies to this topic

[veretax]

I care about the TT rules, but I don't see the problem with a couple of mechs having this ability. I think it becomes stupid if every mech has the ability though :/

[Elkarlo]

Want 360 Degree Torso twist? Drive Goliath !


But maybe what would be fun would be the MW2 Mousecontrol enhanced.
Like you move our Weapons and the Torso twist automatically behind your mouse.

So arm firing Zones would be used.

In MW2: Mercs you had Drive movement, Torso twist and Weapon station movement.

Edited by Elkarlo, 13 June 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[geck0 icaza]

Aleksander Storm, on 13 June 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Though I do agree it needs less skill, I will note that it doesn't let players with it to 'always keep track of' their targets. That kind of assumptive fallacy needs to be left at the door, please.

Not fallacy, Fact. Played enough to know. If it easier to play without 360, prove it, play MWO and own against good pilots. Don't worry about me, I'll wait.

Teralitha, on 13 June 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

Not..... really...... Myself and others who have actually piloted 360 mechs can reliably tell you... that is does IN FACT, take more skill.

"The greatest sin someone can commit is lying to themselves"

Edited by geck0 icaza, 13 June 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Aleksander Storm]

CCC Dober, on 13 June 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I don't even need to make a point, you just do it for me. Feel free to read up in the related thread but spare me your accusations.

Here are a few facts:

1. Not all Mechs have the ability to twist 360°, just a couple (some notable MW4 Mechs: Raven, Rifleman, Vulture, Thor, Canis, Blood Asp)
2. Most of them have the physical ability and where no parts are colliding with each other in the process
3. They are balanced by/through the following factors or any combination: twist speed, weapons loadout, weapons distribution
4. Slow twist speeds will not allow fast target acquisition and hamper reaction times and capability to deal with multiple threats

There you have it. Disagree or not, but this is basic knowledge and if you experience that in MW4, you will quickly see the advantages and disadvantages of the concept. And if you want to drag canon out for a strawman, be my guest and explain away how the Rifleman or the MadCat are supposed to flip their arms around and fire backwards without complicating the targetting procedure any further. I don't think you can, much less give a good solution and that's why 360 is here to stay.

I have been fully aware of all these points, but have become opposed to the idea anyway. How's that? Ultimately, this whole topic boils down to preference, I suspect, and I think it's just apparent that more people would rather see it left off. It's not 'easier' or 'harder' to pilot with 360°, necessarily- but it sure does seem like more people who did experience using such 'Mechs do agree it is 'easier' -but it's just a matter of which way you prefer it.

geck0 icaza, on 13 June 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Not fallacy, Fact. Played enough to know. If it easier to play without 360, prove it, play MWO and own against good pilots. Don't worry about me, I'll wait.

Um... what? Where did I say it was easier to play without 360? I'm not the one making that argument. Are the pro 360° guys making you so confused you're attacking comrades?

[Artifice]

360 Twist for the Urbie!

And maybe the Imp.

[Teralitha]

Artifice, on 13 June 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

360 Twist for the Urbie!

And maybe the Imp.

*slams fist down on table sending dice flying in all directions* NO! It not Rulebook!!!

(sarcasm)

[Aleksander Storm]

geck0 icaza, on 13 June 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Not fallacy, Fact. Played enough to know. If it easier to play without 360, prove it, play MWO and own against good pilots. Don't worry about me, I'll wait.

To clarify my point on this, I was saying that the 360° torso twist doesn't let a 'Mech keep their weapons trained on a target permanently- Trust me, you try it some time. It's not 'OMG OVERPOWERED' against fast 'Mechs at all. However, it is a form of 'easy mode' to have it on a 'Mech, as well. My point is, though, that you can dominate a player that relies too much on it by just outrunning his torso twist (which DOES have a max speed- it's not like an FPS where, with enough effort, he can keep his weapons trained on you) and shredding him while he stupidly tries to catch his torso up to your speedy doombringer.

Again, I'm against having 360° 'Mechs in the game, unless the Devs deem it worthy. I'm just not in denial about the facts of 360° torso twist, like some other opponents.

Edited by Aleksander Storm, 13 June 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[Jukebox1986]

Teralitha, on 13 June 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

*slams fist down on table sending dice flying in all directions* NO! It not Rulebook!!!

(sarcasm)

Have to admit: Made my day...

[Kelthar]

I really dislike silly posts that put words in your mouth, so I'm not voting.

So, for the record, I think 360 degree TT should not be in the game. Regardless of canon.

[Aleksander Storm]

Kelthar, on 13 June 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

I really dislike silly posts that put words in your mouth, so I'm not voting.

So, for the record, I think 360 degree TT should not be in the game. Regardless of canon.

Exactly! Why is this so hard?

[CCC Dober]

@Tera
I think you are onto something here, just a feeling =)

@Aleks
Skill is maybe a bit subjective, maybe not. My take is that you have to use the Mechs in question in their element and compare them to other non-360 Mechs in all kinds of situations, even mirror matches and not just 1vs1. It takes time and a clear, unbiased head to make these observations and present them as they are. I'm kinda fed up with people that want to sell black as white and vice versa, just because they have a more or less thinly veiled hate/agenda/propensity to lie on principle. The facts above are just a fraction of what I have experiienced and know to be true, but I think the essence is covered.

There is definitely more to it and the skill mentioned before is something that has to do with making the best of the advantages without falling into the obvious traps. Like going forward at full speed in a city environment, using the full turn and twist capabilities of your Mech without paying attention to objects in your path. It is definitely a skill to manoeuver carefully enough, maintain awareness and still be precise. Just an extra thing to worry about when driving a 360 Mech.
But ofc that is only something that an unbiased observer can tell you and I hope I have that covered so far and in the future.

Edited by CCC Dober, 13 June 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[geck0 icaza]

Aleksander Storm, on 13 June 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Um... what? Where did I say it was easier to play without 360? I'm not the one making that argument. Are the pro 360° guys making you so confused you're attacking comrades?

Teralitha, on 13 June 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

Not..... really...... Myself and others who have actually piloted 360 mechs can reliably tell you... that is does IN FACT, take more skill.

Sorry. Was referring to this comment.

But to follow, yes skill requirement aside the mech has a designated fire arc. In TT all mechs torso twist are the same. Its a careful balance that works. Some things cannot be translated well into the game. But you adjust how far they can twist, arm targeting speed and the speed in which they can twist just to name a few ways. You don't throw the balance out the window by removing it. No matter what you use to balance it 360 flies in the face of this balance and in the face of the universe the game is based on.

Edited by geck0 icaza, 13 June 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[Aleksander Storm]

CCC Dober, on 13 June 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Skill is maybe a bit subjective, maybe not. My take is that you have to use the Mechs in question in their element and compare them to other non-360 Mechs in all kinds of situations, even mirror matches and not just 1vs1. It takes time and a clear, unbiased head to make these observations and present them as they are. I'm kinda fed up with people that want to sell black as white and vice versa, just because they have a more or less thinly veiled hate/agenda/propensity to lie on principle. The facts above are just a fraction of what I have experiienced and know to be true, but I think the essence is covered.

There is definitely more to it and the skill mentioned before is something that has to do with making the best of the advantages without falling into the obvious traps. Like going forward at full speed in a city environment, using the full turn and twist capabilities of your Mech without paying attention to objects in your path. It is definitely a skill to manoeuver carefully enough, maintain awareness and still be precise. Just an extra thing to worry about when driving a 360 Mech.
But ofc that is only something that an unbiased observer can tell you and I hope I have that covered so far and in the future.

I consider myself an unbiased observer for the most part- except that Teralitha's approach has really rankled me from the previous thread. I really wanted to be on the side of 'have more diversity!', too... I was fine up until I kept seeing, over and over, in the previous thread his bullheaded ways, while the others tried, at least in part, to engage in a more intelligent discussion. He really felt like the kind to 'want to sell black as white and vice versa, just because they have a more or less thinly veiled hate/agenda/propensity to lie on priciple' when I saw him post, thus turning me away from his position as a mostly-neutral party, and wanting to try and guide his opposition to better arguments that didn't fall into the same traps over and over (like accusing MW4 of not being a simulator, or that 360° torso twist is a flawless defense, instead of just a potential mild advantage, or assuming that the supporters wanted to give it to all Assault mechs to somehow make Light 'Mechs useless)...

Anyway... I think your point about knowing where you're going and not running into things... I already highlighted that such applies to 'Mechs with more modest twist ranges, even, due to the limits to viewing angles, so it's not an exclusive skill to just 360° twist. That, there, is an example of a fallacy on the proponent side I'd like to see go away.

[Aleksander Storm]

geck0 icaza, on 13 June 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

But to follow, yes skill requirement aside the mech has a designated fire arc. In TT all mechs torso twist are the same. Its a careful balance that works. Some things cannot be translated well into the game. But you adjust how far they can twist, arm targeting speed and the speed in which they can twist just to name a few ways. You don't throw the balance out the window by removing it. No matter what you use to balance it 360 flies in the face of this balance and in the face of the universe the game is based on.

I'm fairly sure they're already having variable twist ranges on the 'Mechs, though, so the TT hard-coded limit of 120° (or any hard-coded, universal limit, for that matter) doesn't exist here...
Out of curiosity, are you assuming with just a few 'Mechs getting the feature..? This goes back to the fallacies that I think should be avoided by both sides in these debates, so we aren't repeating mistakes...

[CCC Dober]

The difference between them (360 vs standard) is that while you may recover faster from manoeuvering mistakes in a standard Mech, nudging an elbow out of the way, you could find yourself running into a wall in a 360 Mech, facing the opposite direction, requiring you to go slowly backwards, alternatively untangle your legs (remain static -> easy target) and lose valuable time at any rate. I shudder to think what would happen if an LBX boat would knock you down in such a situation, requiring you to get up as well on top of all the other stuff. Might just as well wait a few secs more until the DFA/broadside finishes you. I have run into and caused many situations like that and I can usually tell that a 360 Mech is as much a curse as it is a blessing. I could ramble on a bit, but I think this won't help people see what's going on. It's more of a learning by doing approach I guess. Words are just that, but actual experience trumps it. Said my piece for now. Cheers =)

Edited by CCC Dober, 13 June 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Aleksander Storm]

CCC Dober, on 13 June 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

The difference between them (360 vs standard) is that while you may recover faster from manoeuvering mistakes in a standard Mech, nudging an elbow out of the way, you could find yourself running into a wall in a 360 Mech, facing the opposite direction, requiring you to go slowly backwards, alternatively untangle your legs (remain static -> easy target) and lose valuable time at any rate. I shudder to think what would happen if an LBX boat would knock you down in such a situation, requiring you to get up as well on top of all the other stuff. Might just as well wait a few secs more until the DFA/broadside finishes you. I have run into and caused many situations like that and I can usually tell that a 360 Mech is as much a curse as it is a blessing. I could ramble on a bit, but I think this won't help people see what's going on. It's more of a learning by doing approach I guess. Words are just that, but actual experience trumps it. Said my piece for now. Cheers =)

I ran into stuff anyway regardless of the 'Mech, so long as I was twisted 90° or more. Who says you need 360° to do that?

... hell, even if I wasn't twisted around much, I'd possibly ignore my throttle and ram people.

Edited by Aleksander Storm, 13 June 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[CCC Dober]

Aleksander Storm, on 13 June 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I ran into stuff anyway regardless of the 'Mech, so long as I was twisted 90° or more. Who says you need 360° to do that?

Naw, it just gets worse and you need more time to recover from the 'crash' and get your bearings right LOL

[Eradicator]

please no, it lowers the importance of actually turning, especially when torso mounted weapons are fixed to torso movement

[Arctic Ice]

I did not like the 360 twist in MW4 I found it was a little distracing and anoying. It was on certin mechs and if you forgot you would find your self spinning. i like the 45 deg to 90 deg it looks better and feels better atleast to me. that is my 2 cents worth.

[seraphim]

I apologize if this argument has been made but I skipped several pages of this thread because frankly my head hurt reading some of the responses.

Full disclosure, I just don't like full 360 torso twist. My rationale, I just don't like it.

That said, I would prefer the devs leave 360 torso twist out of the equation. Not because TT rules say you can't (Advanced rules let you twist an additional hex giving you 360 front arc coverage but not spin all the way around and only on some mechs.) However my reasoning is based more on the fiction. I do not recall ever reading of a case where this was possible, in fact, keeping targets in firing arcs by actually reorienting the mechs seems to be one of the pivotal components of most engagements in the fiction. Secondary only to "Am I a Steiner-Davion? Yes! Auto-win". I am aware I just undercut my own credibility with that last comment but it was worth it.

If there is an actual fiction example of a mech being able to 360 torso twist, I am 100% ok with this functionality being added, to that mech. I just dislike the idea of arbitrarily adding this to mechs where this has not previously been attributed to. It would make it feel a little less like battletech and that would make me...no don't worry about me, that would make kittens sad. Do the right thing....for the kittens.

Edited by seraphim, 13 June 2012 - 11:22 AM.