34 replies to this topic

[Training Instructor]

I've noticed this advice given out for just about every mech, up to and including highlanders and atlases.

My question is this: What is a frontline mech then? Is it just the one player aggressive enough to go around that corner first?

It just seems like so much of the advice is to wait for everyone else to engage before you go after people. The problem that we run into though is that this creates a logjam in pug games quite often where everyone is waiting until combat is initiated before they expose themselves. If six players on the enemy team engage the three players on your team who are taking the initiative while you hold back and play "second-line susan", it's going to get you into trouble when those three players are dead and the other team still has 5 or 6 players left from that engagement. Even though several of them will be damaged, and possibly even close to death, they're still going to hurt you before they go down.

The concept of setting up a firing line seems to be lost on a lot of people, as they prefer to hide behind a building while other people are trading shots, or they refuse to lead the push against a weakened enemy, even though they're sitting in an assault mech or heavy.

Obviously, you don't want to be suicidal, but when you see a teammate moving and firing on someone, you should be moving out of cover to fire on that person as well.

[Modo44]

It's not "don't play it as a frontline mech", it's "don't go out into the open without purpose". This assumes, of course, that your team mates in squishy mechs don't run ahead of the assaults. Given the propensity of many players to just charge ahead, even an assault pilot can and will play "support" just because the situation dictates it (e.g. you literally can't keep up with the herd of dumbasses, so you are late to the brawl).

[Victor Morson]

Front line 'mechs should generally be Standard engines whenever possible, and geared to be able to continue fighting after losing part of their body.

A Centurion 9A with 3 SRM6 and 2 ML and a standard engine is the very definition of a "Front line 'mech" that can push up at the lead of a formation (like Modo says, don't rush in alone) and fight, doing tons of damage - and taking tons back. Standard engine Atlas DDCs with SRMs and an AC/20 is another popular front line design.

Highlanders can be made front line easily enough, but if you're setup for it. You can even get more aggressive with an XL Highlander if you want, thanks to it's jumping abilities.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Atlases, hunchbacks (weird but true), cents, cataphracts, stalkers, and victors do well as front-line fighters. I own all of them and i run them basically strictly as brawlers. Atlases can put out and take in insane damage, hunches can shove guns down their throat and ****, cents can get in and stay in, cataphracts lay down ballistic pain, stalkers can srm and laser their way through any other platform in game, victors don't deal the most damage but with good hardpoints and JJs they can goomba stomp and srm/ac20 very well. I don't find highlanders, jagers (except ac40), catapults (except splatcats), lights in general, awesomes, or trebs to be very effective on the front line. But i often sit up front just off to the side and lay down some heavy damage with those platforms (excluding highlanders and lights since i have none and it would just devolve into carrying ppcs/gauss and lights don't appeal to me). But in the listed front-line mechs i can often push and take down 1-2 mechs and draw enough fire so that the team (if coordinated well) can roll the team. I rarely die using this tactic as i torso twist extensively and don't rush too far from my team at any point.

[pulupulu]

front line mech are mechs that carry highly threatening weapons that remove the opponent's desire to move toward you straight. they are there to maintain the front line so that the enemy can not get pass a certain point. when ur front line fall apart, it means the opponent can invade ur space. frontline are where the main forces are located.

flanking is a tactic that can change the shape of the frontline.

generally long range mech maintain front line and short range mech flank (going around via area that can't be detected) or ambush (by pretending that location is not a frontline, hence opponent move forward to fall into the trap).

unfortunately, i doubt most people's definition of "frontline" is correct. lot of people think fighting close range mean front line.

Edited by pulupulu, 23 August 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Chrithu]

The most annoying thing is that a lot of people just run the "standart" position on a map to build the line there and when facing an actually smart acting enemy whine afterwards about getting flanked while waiting for the other team to appear at the standart position.

I see a lot of people so tioghtened up in this behaviour pattern that they will yell at you to stay grouped if you try to scout out or flank the enemy, which is quite annoying. I sometimes feel like the vast majority of the playing population has degraded to a mindless mass that just walks up to the fighting positions and waits for the brawl to begin. There used to be a lot of smart people that would actually mind the minimap and think fast when you start a flanking maneuver. A lot of them seem to be just gone.

[BigBadVlad]

To me a frontline mech is one that can absorb a fair amount of damage (lots of armor, STD engine, AMS) while still dealing a fair amount of damage.

[Goose]

It's not the 'Mechs: It's the conventional wisdom poisoning of the players.

The best way to play is to shoot at someone whom's not shooting back, and that requires you to stand behind a teammate; Being near teammates involves turtling with the herd; Turtling involves lack of scouting; Lack of scouting mean yielding the initiative, and being surprised when the enemy pushes …

Cowardice is a tactic, but it's a bad one.

[Zordicron]

Certain mechs should indeed wait in the wings and focus fire team mate's targets. like Awesomes. Big firepower in a mech that is fairly agile in it's ability to aim that firepower.

This can also apply to things like an Atlas, but it depends on loadout, and has a LOT to do with teamwork. I try not to be point man in my Atlas D unless nobody else is equipped, or worse, nobody else can mentally handle it. Why? because if my team understands my loadout, the phracts and dragons and cents will be just fine with drawing in foolish enemy pilots. go ahead i will say, start taking shots at them. it's okay to take a few hits, because when the time is right, i will emerge and the enemy will know that they are totally ******, and get Facewreckz'd. let them chase you around a bit, and then head back to me, because once the enemy sees me, they HAVE to shoot me, because damn, thats an Atlas, and then they will get stompinated.

Interception successful.

I think, in the end, the advice is simply understated, or misinterpreted. When you roll out to fight, just dont do it right in front of the whole enemy unless you have enough support with you for a good fight.

Honestly, the nuances of combat really are hard to explain. it takes a lot of matches to see how things unfold to be able to predict movements. And of course, you are never 100% on what somebody else is going to do.

[Punk Oblivion]

My opinion is that a "frontline"mech is a combination of high frontal armor, decent direct firepower, runs cool, a pilot that can stay calm no matter what. You need to be a point man that people fear.

A Frontline mech should be able to successfully break the line of the enemy. The enemy should be like:
"Oh {Scrap}, I alpha'd that atlas and it barely did anything, and now he is pounding me with shots that are shaking the {Scrap} out of my mech, and he just keeps firing and firing and is not overheating! I need to run away/get behind cover fast!"

Having said all that, a frontline mech absolutely needs team support. Weak back armor could easily be exploited by an un-checked light. One heavily armored, well designed mech is still no match for 3-4 mechs that all get free shots with no reciprocation.

[Dominik]

I think another big part of the problem is the rigidity of the player mindset. they see a map, see a good position, and -always- go to that same position every time. They look at it like some linear puzzle with only one answer.

I prefer to look at it as a philosophy- if only because no strategy ever survives its encounter with the enemy. It is -never- the strategy itself that wins. This is because, as most people often forget, the enemy has a strategy too. You are not just trying to beat their plan, they are also trying to beat yours and so -Both- get borked over. They clash. they interact.

The true key is in who ADAPTS to the changes faster and more effectively. it is in the teamwork. Most vital of which being communication and coordination. And, as a note, coordination does not mean 'everyone in the same spot'. Coordination means distraction. diversion, flanking. working together through different paths towards a common goal.
-------------
For example. your team has an initial plan of running the left flank of a map to take advantage of cover, with the intent of setting up a long range firing line while the team scouts spot the enemy.

However the scouts come around a corner and find themselves suddenly in a patch of assaults and are caught in the open even if it is only for a few seconds. But it is enough time for one to get cored by a lucky gauss round and the other is legged and soon to follow. Suddenly the scouts can't scout. (note, this is only one of dozens of possibilities, each one creating a brand new chain of events. So please. extrapolate.)

The event reveals information on the enemy whereabouts, however briefly. But the spot-and-spank strategy is now done. The plan has to change. trying to continue as before would immediately decide the match. The enemy team knows the scouts are now dead, the friendly team knows of the whereabouts of a portion of the enemy force, but can't see them any longer. They should now adapt and respond by repositioning a new fire line to take advantage of what units they have left, perhaps spreading out under a variety of positions, or pushing down an available avenue of flanking. A few meds might have to break off and get in front of the attacking force that was found to delay them so the assaults can reposition for line of sight or get behind the force.

However the new plan changes, it will change again. and again. and again. maybe after being spotted the enemy wisely changes their route. or maybe they press on and get blockaded under withering fire. maybe it was not the chief or main force and there is a flanking enemy group that appears suddenly. And so the battle goes until the victory is decided.

A battle is always fluid and dynamic. both sides pushing and baiting and feinting and adapting. The more you try to follow a rigid path, the easier you get blown off of it.

[Bront]

It really depends on the mech.

Some mechs are built to take damage better. Cents can take a beating for a medium mech when they run a standard engine. Victors have the armor and hit boxes to take a good beating with or without a standard engine. Altases have more armor than any other mech by a lot. Mechs that tend to be slower and heavily armored tend to be frontline mechs.

Other mechs simply can't take many punches. They either lack the armor, or simply get cored to easily. These mechs are not built for the frontlines. Lights can fight on the frontlines, but they shouldn't BE the frontline, as they're support or harrassment in combat, not a real front line (they can't take damage).

Beyond that, it's also the weapons loadout. SRMs are a good frontline punching tool. LRMs, not so much.

Ultimately, the biggest problem with the "frontline" is no one wants to take it. Far too many players would rather long range snipe or simply are too afraid to take damage. If your team is taking a ranged beating and can't retaliate, gather up and charge. Sure, you'll take a few hits, but once you get in close, brawler weapons tend to do more damage per ton, and should be able to make those ranged mechs pay.

[Goldhawk]

http://mwomercs.com/...903-mech-roles/

see previous thread.

[Royalewithcheese]

I think there's a certain truth in "don't facetank damage in your glass cannon sniper, and facetanking damage in general is a losing proposition."

[WildeKarde]

I'd also add that a good mech is one that can keep the enemy suppressed with fire while advancing. A bad one is having only a 270m range and needing to cover 500m to get any shots in. It's not just about the armour as even an atlas can be stripped closing on the enemy if they concentrate on them.

This also assumes your mech is being kept paced by your team and you don't need to run by yourself into the middle of the enemy arc of fire to get some hits in.

If you have only short range weapons then you'd be better getting to the fight after it's kicked off to reduce damage you could have taken.

[Autobot9000]

Hehe, the OPs question is so well put I am wondering about it every and any time I read forum posts about tactics. Most assault pilots even state: Let someone else go in first. IMO all this is poor communication. The real thing is:

There is group dynamics and you can't control them, neither in a premade, but especially not in a pug. IMO that is what people relate to when they say: Don't go in first. A "good" engagement develops slowly through interaction of your group with the other group. The ones you are winning are the ones where you outnumber the enemy. In particular an Atlas can't just "lead" the charge, as when he misteps he will die. He is too slow to back out of a bad situation. That's what heavies can do better, but actually you need a scout to pick out the line of fire or the attack route. The skill level of pug people is averaged, so in pugs there will always be good and poor pilots. The poor pilots will never help to do concentrated action. They do basically random stuff.

On the other side I facepalm every single time I see LRM boating Atlases and Highlanders. These people simply don't understand, that they are killing their team. There is a tonnage matchup and if you're heaviest mechs are standing with their 600ish armor in the last line fireing LRMs, then guess who loses? Highlanders, Atlases and Stalkers belong in one single place and that's the "first line". Any other thing kills the team.

People even tend to misconcentrate their fire. You shouldn't focus the heaviest enemy, you should focus the one that does the most DPS and dies fastest. That can very well be a Jager, Ilya, CTF-4x or a CPLT-A1.

Edited by Autobot9000, 06 September 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[Earl White]

Modo44, on 23 August 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

It's not "don't play it as a frontline mech", it's "don't go out into the open without purpose". This assumes, of course, that your team mates in squishy mechs don't run ahead of the assaults. Given the propensity of many players to just charge ahead, even an assault pilot can and will play "support" just because the situation dictates it (e.g. you literally can't keep up with the herd of dumbasses, so you are late to the brawl).

Those are two different things though, if someone says don't play it as a frontline mech, that is not the same as don't go out into the open without purpose. You can't assume that people saying these things mean something other than what they are actually saying.

[Dawnstealer]

Someone has to be first - that part's true. And being real tentative (or even cowardly) will cause your team to be cut to pieces.

BUT...

But go with your team. This is not like most FPS where you can tank up and just roll into the enemy and might survive. That's not the case with MWO. You'll get taken apart in seconds and your team will be down one.

Ideally, what most of us are saying when we say "Don't be a front-line mech" is "don't go into battle alone." Go in as a group, hang with the group, move with the group. Artillery's real ineffective and there aren't really any area-effect weapons. With the exception of Conquest games (and even then) you're better off traveling in a relatively tight cluster.

[Navy Sixes]

Yeah, I'm working through the Cent skill tree right now, and it's really frustrating to be moving in-and-out of cover taking shots at the enemy, only to suddenly find I can't back into my cover because of the blue-triangle riding my *ss. Turning, I find a K-2, or a Stalker, or an Atlas. And they don't want to get out in front of me in my medium. They just sit there, either waiting for the enemy to engage on their terms, or -once we're down 4 mechs- realizing that sitting behind a rock while everyone else dies isn't a winning strategy (Congrats! You died last!) they finally start shooting at someone when it's too late to make a difference.

When I'm not working through the Cent skill tree, I'm driving my C-4, which I've mastered and fitted with LRMs as a primary system. I'm really really really tired of people telling the LRM drivers "You've got to get more aggressive and get up front," and at the same time telling the guy in the 100 ton Fatlas "Wait for the battle to join, then skirt the edges; only commit yourself once you find an opportunity in which the odds are in your favor," or some such guru hogwash.

I was playing a PUG in which we lost pretty bad, and at the end one of my teammates chatted, "Oh, well, when the Atlas pilot says they're going to find a good place to snipe from, you know you're skrewd."

Words to live by.

[Royalewithcheese]

Tycho von Gagern, on 06 September 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

only commit yourself once you find an opportunity in which the odds are in your favor

As opposed to committing when the odds aren't in their favor? I'd rather not have ppl on my team do that hahahaha.