80 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

XFactor777, on 26 August 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

My atlas has a 56 point alpha I haven't heard anyone complain about it being too much (but the 45 point 3ppc+gauss was insane) so there is that. in other words it's a L2P issue for how high is acceptable, if you have a 100 point alpha my job is to not let you get a good shot after that shoot you to death while you cool off.

That's exactly a point that PGI seemed to miss. Just a large number is not encessarily scary. When this large damage number all hits the exact same spot, then we get into trouble. And I bet your Atlas alpha is not "pinpoint accurate" and contains weapons with different projectile speed or behaviors and possibly even a bunch of missiles that spread their damage no matter how well you aim.

[Khobai]

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My atlas has a 56 point alpha I haven't heard anyone complain about it being too much

Yeah but youre probably using SRMs which arnt pinpoint.

Players always complain about my "cheesy" Atlas whenever I play lol. I've been using a x2 ERPPC, x1 LL, x1 Gauss build which commonly does 800-1000 damage and 3-5 kills. Even if I can only hold the LL on the same location for half its duration, im still doing a 40 point alpha.

[Brilig]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 August 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

I would probably say that a single volley of shots, dispensed over 0.5 seconds, shouldn't deal more than 20 damage to one location. That puts the AC/20 as a top weapon. You can achieve this with enforced chain-fire delays, you could do it with convergence/divergence mechanics that spread out shots across a well-definable area, you could do it with cone of fire...

*) battletech-logical is not real logical, because real logical would say mechs are a bad idea and a waste of resources and we should just keep using tanks.

This. Though I would change the damage over .5 seconds to a full second, because I think it would help keep lasers competitive.

[Kitane]

The first moment I thought that a certain build offered too much pinpoint alpha was a Gaussapult in CB - 30 pinpoint damage that was too easy to deliver - just point and click.

Two hits into one component and most mechs were crippled or left with a huge vulnerability anyone could easily exploit. It wasn't really possible to spread the damage around either, if the enemy was semi-competent and had low ping.

That was the first time I felt something was broken.

Edited by Kitane, 27 August 2013 - 01:46 AM.

[Devils Advocate]

So much crying over alpha strikes good lord. Super powered alpha strikes just let you take as much thinking as possible out of the game and replaces it with twitch FPS gameplay. Isn't that what everybody wanted mechwarrior to avoid from the get-go? Do you really want counter strike with mechs? It's been said a dozen times but an alpha strike of LRMs/SRMs/Lasers is a legitimate alpha strike and it's super dangerous but it doesn't blown off your right torso and strip all of your weapons. That's the way an alpha should be unless you're willing to roll with the heat necessary to fire a ton of pin-point damage.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kitane, on 27 August 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

The first moment I thought that a certain build offered too much pinpoint alpha was a Gaussapult in CB - 30 pinpoint damage that was too easy to deliver - just point and click.

Two hits into one component and most mechs were crippled or left with a huge vulnerability anyone could easily exploit. It wasn't really possible to spread the damage around either, if the enemy was semi-competent and had low ping.

That was the first time I felt something was broken.

Of course, the Gauss Rifle back exposed even more problems. Like the borked heat system.
The Gauss Rifle was a poor, unadulterated winner of a game with increased rates of fire with no compensation in heat dissipation. Twice the damage for 1 extra heat? Where do I sign? Where as a weapon like the PPC was "twice the damage for 10 more heat? Uh, sounds nice, but first let me replace one of these other guns with some extra heat sinks". Back in CB, heat sink boating was the order of the day. Unless you could equip 2 Gauss Rifles.

Double Heat Sinks changed that aspect notably, as the cost of heat production effectively went down. That was the point where all the other weapons could show their innate problems. It still had the heat system borked, because suddenly, you could alpha-boat for up to 120 damage before shutdown, and if you were a sniper, also consequence free shoot enemies at range with excellent precision and cool off in safety....

All the solutions implemented by PGI are not really dealing with the fundamental issues, and as long as they keep doing it that way, there is little hope for this game becoming balanced.

[Khobai]

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All the solutions implemented by PGI are not really dealing with the fundamental issues, and as long as they keep doing it that way, there is little hope for this game becoming balanced.

Exactly. The entire core of the game is fundamentally flawed. And PGI keeps trying to patch over it instead of just fixing it properly. Yes it might take 6 months to fix convergence and the heatscale properly, but at least youll end up with a game that battletech fans can be proud of.

[Shadey99]

RetroActive, on 26 August 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

It mostly stems from the super vocal minority who wants everything to be exactly like their failed book franchise from the 80's that they refer to as "canon" like it's some sort of sacred text.

Wow. If you hate battletech so much, why exactly are you playing this game? Go play some other giant robot game and be much happier without any need to follow the IP.

That said, I don't think the TT/P&P gamers want alphas restricted. They have always been part of the game, group firing (rifleman and jagermech are made just to fire bursts of AC rounds in groups). However that environment is balanced around heat per turn of play with rising consequences. So for instance if you had 20 heatsinks you could at most fire 2 regular PPCs without building up heat. Mechs were also designed to slowly build up how many weapons could be used the closer you were, we see some of that in MWO like my jagermechs having medium lasers as backups, but our heat generation and dissipation are so completely different they can never work together without leading to overheating.

I don't see an issue with 30 points of damage from any combination of weapons fired in a group. However the current ghost heat scale isn't even based on 30 damage or any other number across the board. Instead some are 20, some are 30, others are 40...

[Ozric]

Chain fire medium lasers or I'm *&%$<?@ quitting!

[TheNef]

15 in my spider, 1ER PPC and an ML. Tis an alpha to be very afraid of .

[Nik Van Rhijn]

1?

[Lightfoot]

You mean group-fire? Or an Alpha-Strike? The Clan Supernova has a 54 damage group-fire, but that is also it's alpha-strike.

MWO doesn't find much in common with Battletech except the mechs. They try, but they listen to people who cry nerf about just about anything. So MWO has no missiles, no Gauss Rifle (soon), no group-fire, no Alpha-Strike, but we got MLAS and dakka-dakka. That approach to MechWarrior is not going to hold my interest.

If LRMs worked decently they wouldn't have to nerf the Gauss, the LRMs would take care of the Gauss. That's how MechWarrior is balanced. Not with ghost heat and charge up times, but with balanced weapons that counter each other.

I have never asked for a nerf, I just do the best I can. MechWarrior is always a brutally paced game that rewards stupidity with a fast defeat. So be it. But in deference to new players I have suggested making the mechs tougher for them. PGI seems to just listen to the nerf-crowd though. C'est la vie.

They better have those LRMs doing some open map controlling by Game Launch though. All these nerfs are making MWO a FOTM one dimensional game.

Anyway, MechWarrior balance is that one weapon trumps the others if the map conditions are right. Something that has yet to be seen in MWO because we still can't pick the map we drop on.

[SkyCake]

Khobai, on 26 August 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

So I would say even 20 pinpoint damage is too much coming from anything other than an AC/20.

and even this is too much... all AC's should have been laserfied as they are talked about in the lore, that is spread out DAKA, not pinpoint alpha..

if they ever fix ppc/gauss then AC20 will follow on the nerfing block the very next day

ppc's and gauss should be the only pinpoint alpha weapons and they a should have massive drawbacks as a result, ie long cooldowns, massive heat for ppc, tonnage and crit concerns for guass, they both explode when critted, basically they are good in support/sniping rolls or as part of a balanced build, but are terrible in brawls when boated... if you can achieve that balance i dont really care about pinpoint alpha...

but as it stands now, these weapons are the best in both brawls and sniping and that needs to stop... not to mention really good at killing lights

[ricardox]

Let the cat out of the bag in the other thread so I'll say it here.

I think 33 is the limit.

33 = 1 shot death to the head. Hitting the head twice with a front loaded damage weapon group twice aint easy based on most hitboxes...

Other than.. I'm sorry to say, yeah you, Catapult. (especially the founder.)

EDIT: In this instance I'm talking pinpoint, of course.. you can have bigger distributed alphas.

Edited by ricardox, 27 August 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[akpavker]

SkyCake, on 27 August 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

and even this is too much... all AC's should have been laserfied as they are talked about in the lore, that is spread out DAKA, not pinpoint alpha..

if they ever fix ppc/gauss then AC20 will follow on the nerfing block the very next day

ppc's and gauss should be the only pinpoint alpha weapons and they a should have massive drawbacks as a result, ie long cooldowns, massive heat for ppc, tonnage and crit concerns for guass, they both explode when critted, basically they are good in support/sniping rolls or as part of a balanced build, but are terrible in brawls when boated... if you can achieve that balance i dont really care about pinpoint alpha...

but as it stands now, these weapons are the best in both brawls and sniping and that needs to stop... not to mention really good at killing lights

to be honest im sick and tired of hearing about how bad ppc/gauss are. there have been poles on the forums where poeple could vote for changes and and going off them the majority of people think ppc's are fine.

http://mwomercs.com/...ce-suggestions/

http://mwomercs.com/...ing-fine-as-is/

http://mwomercs.com/...ge-is-too-much/

people need to quit the whining and complaining about ppc's!!they have already been nerf hard and the gauss is about to follow with even harder nerfs!!!!

its very simple if you stand in the open or on top of a big ******* hill and not move you are going to get shot.....alot and then die. try playing a little smarter e.g....don't stand in 1 spot like a *****, don't charge mechs front on, take cover as much as possible only revealing your self when a good opportunity to strike presents its self. if your pined down try flanking or send a decoy to the enemy base and try split their team up.

from personal experience %50 of the people in this game deserve to die because they are dumb and do stupid things. the only draw back to this is they come to the forums and call for nerfs and if it keeps on going we are going to end up with "mech warrior pillow fight online"

xenoglyph, on 26 August 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

I just invested in a pitchfork factory.

ricardox, on 26 August 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

I hear they are nerfing that down to 2 prongs and 1 will be desynced from the other

Edited by akpavker, 28 August 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[Felio]

One weapon or 12 damage, whichever is greater.

[XSerjo]

Felio, on 27 August 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

One weapon or 12 damage, whichever is greater.

No love for AC20 and Gauss?

Tabletop is perfectly balanced for 20dmg-per-location-at-once. And all MWO non-pinpoint weapons are balanced very well.

Screwing the pinpoint accuracy of high-alpha weapons may solve balance issues better than ghost heat and ghost delay.

[Karl Streiger]

And there we are - again.

You can't have hitboxes based on 2d6 with point and click weapons that deal all the damage to this location in a moment

So you have to change the mechanics of the hitboxes, make all weapons damage over time - to allow more spreading damage - or change the mechanics how players aim and fire there weapons.

In optimum you have to take all three elements - to allow the most smooth approach to the problematic.

Me for my part didn't understand the cone problematic - look its the same as in World of Tanks - you choose a gun - based on damage, penetration, accuracy and rate of fire.
You can take a weapon that deal more damage - but for the costs of accuracy - or you take a weapon for more penetration.

If the devs would be able to - give any weapon two damage values like all the CBT RPG weapons (penetration, damage) - and add multiple hit locations to the mechs - each with its unique damage barrier value and hp - you may be able to keep the pin point accuracy allive.
However you also can add a dispersion value to each weapon (unique for each mech - and is only calculated once) - that isn't a question of to hit or not to hit - its the question to know your mech

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

I want my 90 point alpha back

[Xanquil]

An acceptable alpha is being able to fire all your weapons at once, but none of them will automatically hit the same location. You should be able to fire all your weapons at once, but if you do it should be just like firing a shotgun. In essence the amount of damage from an alpha isn't the big issue it is the pinpoint accuracy of the alpha that is. Two ac-20 hits(to different locations) are far less dangerous than two ac-20 hit that will always hit the same location. (ie the ac-40)