80 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Xanquil, on 28 August 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

An acceptable alpha is being able to fire all your weapons at once, but none of them will automatically hit the same location. You should be able to fire all your weapons at once, but if you do it should be just like firing a shotgun. In essence the amount of damage from an alpha isn't the big issue it is the pinpoint accuracy of the alpha that is. Two ac-20 hits(to different locations) are far less dangerous than two ac-20 hit that will always hit the same location. (ie the ac-40)

PGI has said it's not possible for the game to have individual aim-points for every weapon. Too many calculations I guess. You have an aim-point for the arms and one for the torso, so a de-convergence fix they could do is to make it harder to allign both reticles and remove the lock reticles function. If you use a joystick, you already have this feature since alligning the reticles is quite a trick if you are moving over uneven ground. They could add that difficulty to Mouse emulations too. Would that work for the folks who want less convergence? It would be something akin to what you are asking for at any rate.

A better way is to overlap the Mech's, hitboxes so the near misses have the damage applied to 2-3 sections. That would be less processor intensive than giving each weapon it's own aim-point and you wouldn't turn the alpha-strike into a giant shot-gun cone.

There is no maximum Alpha-Strike, except when your Mech explodes. Technically at least.

Edited by Lightfoot, 28 August 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[RetroActive]

I can't believe there are people who actually want a possible 4 different aiming reticles. How does that sound fun to anyone?

[XANi]

RetroActive, on 28 August 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I can't believe there are people who actually want a possible 4 different aiming reticles. How does that sound fun to anyone?

More fun than getting cored from by pinpoint alpha...

And it doesn't have to te separate reticules, just make it so single weapon doesn't bloom but multiple ones fired in same "timeslot" do.

[RetroActive]

XANi, on 28 August 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

More fun than getting cored from by pinpoint alpha...

And it doesn't have to te separate reticules, just make it so single weapon doesn't bloom but multiple ones fired in same "timeslot" do.

I don't know about you, but I've never been cored in one shot from a pinpoint alpha. I probably haven't even been cored in two shots from a pinpoint alpha.

Have you perhaps considered that you might be doing something wrong?

[Qrbaza]

He is not piloting assault with 2xERPPC + GAUSS but drives light mech? If you werent cored in one/two hit yet than you are fairly new player and never expirienced 6xPPC stalker to bread up your neck or you never tried light mech before.Try light mech for a change with curent meta well see...

[James Warren]

Its not just the total damage. More important is where that damage is applied to, what repercussions does the attacker face, etc.

The most serious repercussion would of course be instant death for the attacker. But that wouldn't make it fun to be able to kamikaze someone and one-shot them at the loss of your own mech. This is almost what the ac40 jagers did - sure they were vulnerable, but they could still charge right in and be almost guaranteed a kill before they died.

For a reckless move such as an alpha strike, I think the penalty should be greater than the reward, so that it becomes a last-resort rather than every-shot deal (I'm talking about the ridiculously huge alpha-strikes here and not something like the Hunch 4P boating med lasers, which operates as intended).

Maybe weapons could lose accuracy based (cone of fire) on how many are group fired at once, that way you'd have to chain fire for accuracy but you could still have your high damage alphas - they'd just spread the damage across a larger part of the mech. This would also make it easier for brawlers to close the distance and you'd actually get to have a better look at the enemy mechs up close.

Edited by James Warren, 28 August 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Lil Cthulhu]

The maximum acceptable alpha damage is however much the particular mech I'm piloting can throw down range at any given moment.

[RetroActive]

Qrbaza, on 28 August 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

He is not piloting assault with 2xERPPC + GAUSS but drives light mech? If you werent cored in one/two hit yet than you are fairly new player and never expirienced 6xPPC stalker to bread up your neck or you never tried light mech before.Try light mech for a change with curent meta well see...

Oh I experienced to 6 PPC Stalker. But we aren't talking about the past now, are we? We're talking about now when a 35 pt alpha will not core me in one shot.

If I'm piloting a light mech, those PPC and Gauss will never hit the same place since I'm always moving at a high speed. If you're sitting still and eating a PPC+Gauss alpha to the CT in a light mech you are definitely doing it wrong.

[Foxfire]

Simple..

One that doesn't guarantee that everything will hit a single point.

The 6 PPC stalker wouldn't have been a problem if they couldn't deliver that amount of damage to a single spot on a mech.

Nerfing damage, introducing arbitrary systems such as ghost heat, and other systems of the like do little to address what makes high alphas a popular meta. All they do is hurt the certain weapons when used in mixed loadouts(such as the heat bump for PPC's).

[ricardox]

RetroActive, on 28 August 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Oh I experienced to 6 PPC Stalker. But we aren't talking about the past now, are we? We're talking about now when a 35 pt alpha will not core me in one shot.

If I'm piloting a light mech, those PPC and Gauss will never hit the same place since I'm always moving at a high speed. If you're sitting still and eating a PPC+Gauss alpha to the CT in a light mech you are definitely doing it wrong.

Yep. Because convergence requires accurate distance to target, lasers are currently the only pinpoint weapon that has convergence on you (NERF LASERS!!! j/k) if you are moving (other than directly at or away). Others weapons have you leading the target which means they are pointing in front of you (likely at empty air) and the distance is WRONG. Actually the chance that you'll be hit is increased, but most likely by just 1 weapon (or 2 if from the same location).

Most people complaining about PPC/Gauss convergence I assume arent light pilots.. If they are, they need to learn to move. Laser convergence is what they need to fear...

[Foxfire]

And I would counter that the complaining is because of the fact that it encourages a very boring style of gameplay. There is a reason why brawling was all but dead until SRM damage was bumped back up.

[No7]

A light should not have more then 2 point of damage alpha, with pin point accuracy.
A medium, 4 points,
Heavy, 8 points
Assault, 16 points.

The Gauss rifle needs a 12 second reload time and a 99% chance of blowing up with hit, with 120 points of exploding damage.Together with the upcoming need to press and hold the button. Damage reduced to 6.

The PPC needs a 8 second reload time, with double amount of heat compared to now. Also the ghost heat should start at 1. Damage reduced to 4.

The ER PPC needs a 10 seconds reload time, with triple amount of heat compared to now. Ghost heat starts at 1. Damage reduced to 4.

Maybe then I can stay alive in my brawler atlas with my 56 point alpha and score my first kill, yeah baby!

[Tombstoner]

The only acceptable alpha in my book is 200 point of damage: the scale maximum. until i hit that limit i will continue to min max everything..... come on clan tech.... i need me some ultra -20 love.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Foxfire, on 28 August 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Simple..

One that doesn't guarantee that everything will hit a single point.

The 6 PPC stalker wouldn't have been a problem if they couldn't deliver that amount of damage to a single spot on a mech.

Nerfing damage, introducing arbitrary systems such as ghost heat, and other systems of the like do little to address what makes high alphas a popular meta. All they do is hurt the certain weapons when used in mixed loadouts(such as the heat bump for PPC's).

Weapons should go where they are aimed. Unless your weapons stats indicate a 100% accuracy rating, that means that there is a significant chance that your ALPHA may not hit the target at all.

[Dimento Graven]

Dudeman3k, on 26 August 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

well, in whole honesty an "alpha" should only be used in times of desperation... not the defining factor in total damage output. the culprit in this is the pin-point accuracy. making armor and weapon diversity obsolete.

to answer your question, no alpha is acceptable... it just shouldn't be.

I can't disagree with you more, unless I could physically place hands on you and attempt slapping some sense into you.

The ONLY reason "alphas" were a 'desperation' event is because of the heat scale, y'know that chart on EVERY SINGLE record sheet?


Without something like that chart being in built into the game, the constant repetitive alpha is possible.

We can ride the heat capacity at 99% for a full 15 minute match, NEVER slow down, NEVER have issues with our rate of fire, NEVER have issues with our aim, NEVER worry about potential ammo explosions and the like.

GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD PEOPLE: THE PROBLEM IS NOT, NOT HIGH DAMAGE ALPHAS, THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE IS NO TRUE HEAT AFFECTS TABLE IN THIS GAME.

You start at zero, and you can do any damn thing you want as long as you don't exceed 99% heat capacity.

All the band-**** and craptastic kludges that PGI has foisted upon us tap dance around the issue that FROM THE GET GO, PGI designed the game with a MAJOR FLAW, they left off the Heat Affects Table, something so EXPLATIVE important, again emphasis through repetition, that it was PRINTED on EVERY record sheet EVER published.

Stop this BS with god awful gauss manipulation, phantom boating penalties (which only completely screw mechs that are actually DESIGNED to BE boats), etc.

ADD some frickin' Heat Affects Penalties that kick in as heat goes up, and go away as the heat goes down. People will be shooting A LOT LESS HIGH ALPHAS if they have to worry about losing speed, the ability to aim, the next shot not going off, ammo starting to cook off, etc. etc. etc.

I can't understand how ANY fan of BattleTech who has EVER played the TT game, or almost ANY of the other previous computer versions, can't understand this very plainly obvious fact.

The fact that it was designed this way, and their kludges they're inflicting upon this game, tells me a few things:

1. The people designing MWO didn't play TT very much.
2. The people designing MWO didn't play many of the other computerized versions of BT.
3. The people making the decisions don't really like BT at all.
4. There's some ***** trying to make MWO the next WoT... We need to find out who he is, and remove him...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 29 August 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Lil Cthulhu]

God forbid the dissipation of heat just takes longer when there is more built up due to the heatsinks being overloaded and therefore functioning less efficiently.

No, we can't do that. That's how things like heat behave in the real world.

[Dimento Graven]

Let's demonstrate this another way too:

Can we see WHY MWO has so many more alphas than we expect?

I'm not advocating for an identical heat affects table, not at all, but the very lack of any REAL heat affects table is the cause of so many this game's balance problems, it's utterly ridiculous to try and avoid the subject any more.

EVEN IF, there's some bizarre scaling difference PGI's trying to utilize the fact that we have only TWO affects in PGI's table:

Potential shut down.
Some internal CT damage.

vs Original:

Speed loss
Aiming ability loss
Potential shut down
Potential ammo explosions

Makes lots of alphas possible.

Even on the Original table, the first shutdown was at "14", but before you even got that far you lost 3 MP and had +3 added to the ToHit, making it more difficult to get away and more difficult to hit anything. MWO doesn't even do that to us, it's NOTHING.

So, no risk, no penalty, WHY THE HECK NOT?!?!!?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 29 August 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[ShadowSpirit]

An acceptable alpha is whatever PGI tells you it is. PGIs opinion seems to vary based on the phase of the moon and the current wind speed.

[3rdworld]

Dimento Graven, on 29 August 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Let's demonstrate this another way too:

Can we see WHY MWO has so many more alphas than we expect?

Heat in MWO isn't calculated anything resembling TT.

As such the 2 are in no way comparable.

[Allekatrase]

ShadowSpirit, on 29 August 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

An acceptable alpha is whatever PGI tells you it is. PGIs opinion seems to vary based on the phase of the moon and the current wind speed.

I think it's actually a quantum value representing multiple states simultaneously.