80 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

3rdworld, on 29 August 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Heat in MWO isn't calculated anything resembling TT.

As such the 2 are in no way comparable.

Go back and reread the post, I updated it further elaborating my thought...

[Captain Katawa]

Something that won't cripple a medium mech in one hit. Also don't forget that lasers don't focus 100% of damage in one hitbox.

Alphs we have now are quite acceptable assuming we're running double the lore armor.

[Dimento Graven]

3rdworld, on 29 August 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Heat in MWO isn't calculated anything resembling TT.

As such the 2 are in no way comparable.

Continuing to think this over and reviewing what few official PGI responses I've seen on the subject, perhaps THIS is more representative of what PGI is trying to convince us they've done:

As you can see, the first shut down event at 14, supposedly equates to MWO 100% heat utilization, which means MWO's random internal CT damage, occurs at 19.

Again, this STILL demonstrates the lack of FULL heat affects table, as by the time you get to the first potential damage in the original table you've lost: 6mp, or upwards of 65kph (assuming 1 hex = 30 meters, and a TT round represents 10 seconds, that 2160hexes/hour*30meters, 64.8kph).

That would make most mediums, heavies and assaults stationary, if not nearly so. Quite the risk, wouldn't you say?

Also, let's not forget the ToHit modifiers, as the original add's +6 to what you need to roll, I don't want to go through the math to figure the actual percentage hit, but if my guestimation is at all near to the mark, that ends up meaning that at least 80% of your shots will miss.

Again, THIS, is what's missing from MWO and is what's causing the balance issues, NOT high damage alpha's, not synchronized fire from various weapons, NOT boating, it's that we get to do ALL SORTS of high heat stuff without any real risk to it.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 29 August 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[3rdworld]

Dimento Graven, on 29 August 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Continuing to think this over and reviewing what few official PGI responses I've seen on the subject, perhaps THIS is more representative of what PGI is trying to convince us they've done:

As you can see, the first shut down event at 14, supposedly equates to MWO 100% heat utilization, which means MWO's random internal CT damage, occurs at 19.

Again, this STILL demonstrates the lack of FULL heat affects table, as by the time you get to the first potential damage in the original table you've lost: 6mp, or upwards of 65kph (assuming 1 hex = 30 meters, and a TT round represents 10 seconds, that 2160hexes/hour*30meters, 64.8kph).

That would make most mediums, heavies and assaults stationary, if not nearly so. Quite the risk, wouldn't you say?

Also, let's not forget the ToHit modifiers, as the original add's +6 to what you need to roll, I don't want to go through the math to figure the actual percentage hit, but if my guestimation is at all near to the mark, that ends up meaning that at least 80% of your shots will miss.

Again, THIS, is what's missing from MWO and is what's causing the balance issues, NOT high damage alpha's, not synchronized fire from various weapons, NOT boating, it's that we get to do ALL SORTS of high heat stuff without any real risk to it.

If you actually think that is a good idea. I see no reason to continue.

Edited by 3rdworld, 29 August 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

3rdworld, on 29 August 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

If you actually think that is a good idea. I see no reason to continue.

You're not continuing you're being an elitist **** that isn't making any real point.

There was a reason EVERY single mother-expletive record sheet ever published had THAT table on it.

The Heat Affects table was THE KEY factor in any and all tactical and strategic decisions you had to make. MWO has been attempting to use the original TT values for heat generation, damage delivered, critical slots used, and weapon weight. You can't just arrogantly say, "...Heat in MWO isn't calculated anything resembling TT...", because THAT is pure and total BS, whether you know it or not, or are willing to admit it. The heat values have been tweaked, but the very basis of this game STARTS at TT values, so they are IN FACT, VERY comparable.

Yes, they've tweaked heat values since their original closed beta release, why? BECAUSE THEY DID NOT ADD THE CRITICAL AFFECTS TABLE, and as a result have had a long standing issue with balance.

If you're going to be THAT arrogantly ignorant to NOT acknowledge that brutally apparent fact, you're right you can stop reading this thread as you are unable/unwillling to continue in any logical or meaningful manner, AND, as a matter of fact, you should probably stop reading all MWO related threads, your mind is to closed to extremely obvious facts.

[3rdworld]

Dimento Graven, on 29 August 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

You're not continuing you're being an elitist **** that isn't making any real point.

There was a reason EVERY single mother-expletive record sheet ever published had THAT table on it.

The Heat Affects table was THE KEY factor in any and all tactical and strategic decisions you had to make. MWO has been attempting to use the original TT values for heat generation, damage delivered, critical slots used, and weapon weight. You can't just arrogantly say, "...Heat in MWO isn't calculated anything resembling TT...", because THAT is pure and total BS, whether you know it or not, or are willing to admit it. The heat values have been tweaked, but the very basis of this game STARTS at TT values, so they are IN FACT, VERY comparable.

Yes, they've tweaked heat values since their original closed beta release, why? BECAUSE THEY DID NOT ADD THE CRITICAL AFFECTS TABLE, and as a result have had a long standing issue with balance.

If you're going to be THAT arrogantly ignorant to NOT acknowledge that brutally apparent fact, you're right you can stop reading this thread as you are unable/unwillling to continue in any logical or meaningful manner, AND, as a matter of fact, you should probably stop reading all MWO related threads, your mind is to closed to extremely obvious facts.

No they aren't.

Heat-HS = heat, is different than heat = heat.

I am not closed to obvious facts, I actually understand how the game works. But sure, project your deficiencies on me.

[Dimento Graven]

3rdworld, on 29 August 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

No they aren't.

Heat-HS = heat, is different than heat = heat.

I am not closed to obvious facts, I actually understand how the game works. But sure, project your deficiencies on me.

Again, no real point made, the closest you get is that second sentence:

Heat-HS = heat, is different than heat = heat

It should actually read:

Heat-HS = accumulated heat

And depending on how much ACCUMULATED HEAT you have, you trigger a heat affect. Both on TT, AND, in MWO. It's just that MWO's heat affects table is too sparse, and has very little balancing affect, unlike TT.

Heat accumulates in TT and in MWO. In MWO it's real time, in TT there was a "heat dissipation phase" out of necessity.

Yes, the primary difference between TT and MWO is TT is a TOP DOWN turn based representation of 'mech warfare. MWO is a FIRST PERSON REAL TIME simulation.

However, interestingly enough, HEAT AFFECTS is something that can actually translate well with only minor modifications.

Movement affects in TT would happen next round. In MWO they can be real time, affecting your maximum KPH, changing as your 'mech gets more accumulated heat, or dissipates accumulated heat.

Same thing with any aiming modifications.

Same thing with ANY OTHER random heat affects you want to add to MWO's heat affects table to make things interesting and add balance.

Now, go ahead and respond with some OTHER non-point, go ahead. OR, maybe you can take a deep breath, think about MWO and how things actually work, weapons, and their various values, what actually occurs in a MWO match and come up with a salient argument.

I await your response.

[Zyllos]

Lightfoot, on 28 August 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

PGI has said it's not possible for the game to have individual aim-points for every weapon. Too many calculations I guess. You have an aim-point for the arms and one for the torso, so a de-convergence fix they could do is to make it harder to allign both reticles and remove the lock reticles function.

There is a problem with this idea:

• Most players place all their weapons into either the torsos or arms, to circumvent this issue.

I also hate the fact that PGI said "We can't have multiple aiming points" as if it's different from every other FPS that has ever existed. Plus, it's code, you can technically have anything that a Turning machine can accomplish.

So what it turns into is PGI basically thinks that their way of playing MWO is the only way to play MWO and it's hurting the playability and enjoyability of this game.

They think that if weapons do not fire directly straight into a single point, then this game is will not be fun anymore. Well, it's already not that fun. I can bearly bring myself to log in for a single match anymore due to how weapons work in this game.

[3rdworld]

Dimento Graven, on 29 August 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Again, no real point made, the closest you get is that second sentence:

Heat-HS = heat, is different than heat = heat

It should actually read:

Heat-HS = accumulated heat

And depending on how much ACCUMULATED HEAT you have, you trigger a heat affect. Both on TT, AND, in MWO. It's just that MWO's heat affects table is too sparse, and has very little balancing affect, unlike TT.

Heat accumulates in TT and in MWO. In MWO it's real time, in TT there was a "heat dissipation phase" out of necessity.

Yes, the primary difference between TT and MWO is TT is a TOP DOWN turn based representation of 'mech warfare. MWO is a FIRST PERSON REAL TIME simulation.

However, interestingly enough, HEAT AFFECTS is something that can actually translate well with only minor modifications.

Movement affects in TT would happen next round. In MWO they can be real time, affecting your maximum KPH, changing as your 'mech gets more accumulated heat, or dissipates accumulated heat.

Same thing with any aiming modifications.

Same thing with ANY OTHER random heat affects you want to add to MWO's heat affects table to make things interesting and add balance.

Now, go ahead and respond with some OTHER non-point, go ahead. OR, maybe you can take a deep breath, think about MWO and how things actually work, weapons, and their various values, what actually occurs in a MWO match and come up with a salient argument.

I await your response.

No they can't. Movement penalties make Poptarts & Assaults the best mechs, even more than they already are. Hit % penalties cement gauss as the best weapon in the game. Not to mention basically screws lights, which run pretty warm, and that further makes assaults better.

non-point? I didn't want to get into this discussion in the first place. The entire idea is a complete non-starter and will do absolutely nothing other than making the balance of the game a larger travesty than it already is.

INB4: PGI could balance the weapons around heat penalties or PGI could balance movement & hit penalties to mechs.

Edited by 3rdworld, 29 August 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[PropagandaWar]

a full alpha should just have convergence issues. That's all. Maybe add a bit heat for fusion engine overload (makes sense for energy weapons only) , but not much more.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 29 August 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[3rdworld]

PropagandaWar, on 29 August 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

a full alpha should just have convergence issues. That's all. Maybe add a bit heat for fusion engine overload (makes sense for energy weapons only) , but not much more.

So if I equip a small laser with my 2PPC & Gauss I don't have any issues?

Edited by 3rdworld, 29 August 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

3rdworld, on 29 August 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

No they can't. Movement penalties make Poptarts & Assaults the best mechs, even more than they already are.

Explain yourself. I don't see it. Does it slow down blazing fast lights? Yes, but of course, slowing down a 140kph Jenner/Raven/Commando/Cicada by 60kph still leaves it at FAST 80kph movement. Unlike any other 'mech that will be not much faster than 60kph without heat penalties, where a 60kph penalty practically immobilizes it.

If you think being a stationary target makes you better, I don't think we're playing the same game.

So again, you have to explain this.

Quote

Hit % penalties cement gauss as the best weapon in the game.

Really? How so? Or are you assuming that because it has low heat generation it automatically becomes uber? No. Sorry, again, you have to elaborate on that.

Quote

Not to mention basically screws lights, which run pretty warm, and that further makes assaults better.

Ahh, yes, I knew it. You're one of the PGI employee type players, where you run nothing but lights, crammed with lasers, zipping around at maximum speed firing as fast as your weapons will refresh without a second thought to heat.

No, with a heat affects table in play, EVERY 'mech, light to assault, boat to patchwork Sally, will have to think about heat and pay attention to it EVERY shot. That assault that fires his alpha at you will have to worry about only being able to move at 10kph, even as you move around at a 'crippled' 80kph clip circling him, firing at his back.

Quote

non-point? I didn't want to get into this discussion in the first place.

Interesting, who made you post a reply?

Quote

The entire idea is a complete non-starter and will do absolutely nothing other than making the balance of the game a larger travesty than it already is.

You haven't explained why yet. You just scream "because it makes bigs better and littles worse" without explaining how it does so.

I've explained how it does the opposite, multiple times.

Quote

INB4: PGI could balance the weapons around heat penalties or PGI could balance movement & hit penalties to mechs.

PGI has been tweaking heat values since they put the weapons in, they are very near where the TT rule set has them, only minor tweaking of heat has occurred, all it takes is a little comparative research to see that.

What doesn't PGI have in the game? A heat affects table.

PGI has tried balancing crapola before, ie: the boating heat penalty, and that did ZERO to resolve high hit point alphas, it just made everyone switch to a completely different weapon set. Anything they do that does not involve a heat affects table is more of the same. It will fail. It will fail big time.

It's time for PGI to stop wasting time adding {Scrap} that never existed in BT before, in ANY game, be it TT or computer based analog. Stop trying to avoid adding what should have been there in the first place and wasting time and effort in the process.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 29 August 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Vulkur]

I have played a boat load of TT Battletech in my day, and also just about every Mechwarrior game that rolled down the pike. I like MWO a lot, but I think it would be an even better game with the implementation of the afore mentioned "TT heat table". If it were, I think it would auto correct a bunch of the issues that everyone is comcerned without the need for artificial "bonus heat" penaltys etc.

I'm no programmer, but it seems like it would be easy to do:

1. you start slowing down the higher your heat goes. They made the terrain affect your movement, why not heat.
2. your arm reflex and turning slows down as you heat up to simulate the penalties to hit at high heat.
3. ammo explosions with a countdown timer that you had to "avoid" with a button push - higher heat means less reaction time for the button push
4. shutdowns with a countdown timer that you had to "avoid" with a button push - higher heat means less reaction time for the button push.

Easy.

Exactly how that is balanced around heat and heatsink dissipation might be tricky, but I think worth the effort.

Keep the weapons pretty much the way they are. The different ways they function makes them more interesting.

$.02

[Almond Brown]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 26 August 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

Big alpha strikes didn't go anywhere, they are still in the game. Try a Gauss + 2xER Large Laser + 2xLRM20, thats a 57 point alpha. Or an AC20 + 2xSRM6 + 2 Large Pulse Laser, thats a respectable 65 damage.

Or do you mean the PPC/Gauss alpha strikes? Those were a little too easy-mode, and when there is low skill requirement needed to run a cookie cutter sniper, the majority tend to flock to it, and ultimately the lack of variety ends up killing the game.

PGI wisely decided to get out ahead of this one. I don't know that I would have picked the same solution ('heat-tax' & 'power-up'), but it was better than doing nothing.

Or the "Dark Alley Bully" A solid 65 Alpha and doesn't have to wait until you get in to the Alley to soften you up. But when you do arrive. Lights out. ,

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ac2f749e56d1a97

[PropagandaWar]

3rdworld, on 29 August 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

So if I equip a small laser with my 2PPC & Gauss I don't have any issues?

Honestly I don't run high alpha builds, I mainly pilot mediums and have no real problem with them. Also the "Dual" PP's and guass rifle Victors and Highlanders convergence Idea I have to where Torso weapons are static doesn't exactly work for the qq case. PGI stated that they are going to work on heat tables after launch which makes more sense. Throwing off pinpoint when your running high heat (Same as jj shootin) makes sense. Gimping a alpha when the mech is cool doesn't seem right.

[Almond Brown]

Captain Katawa, on 29 August 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Something that won't cripple a medium mech in one hit. Also don't forget that lasers don't focus 100% of damage in one hitbox.

Alphs we have now are quite acceptable assuming we're running double the lore armor.

And what Range would you like the "non-crippling to happen at exactly? All ranges?

[Hellen Wheels]

ricardox, on 26 August 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Must be my day for making new threads.. must be bored. Said in another thread but wanted to get people's opionion...

The alphas have come down from 60 (stalker) to 40 (AC40 jager/cat) to 35 (Gauss+2PPC) to now.. likely 30...

What is the acceptable alpha?

An acceptable alpha is 63.59 for my Atlas. But that is one extreme hot shot to be used only in the most dire of circumstances.

My other one has an alpha rating of 73+ IIRC, but it isn't a true alpha.

[Almond Brown]

Dimento Graven, on 29 August 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Again, no real point made, the closest you get is that second sentence:

Heat-HS = heat, is different than heat = heat

It should actually read:

Heat-HS = accumulated heat

And depending on how much ACCUMULATED HEAT you have, you trigger a heat affect. Both on TT, AND, in MWO. It's just that MWO's heat affects table is too sparse, and has very little balancing affect, unlike TT.

Heat accumulates in TT and in MWO. In MWO it's real time, in TT there was a "heat dissipation phase" out of necessity.

Yes, the primary difference between TT and MWO is TT is a TOP DOWN turn based representation of 'mech warfare. MWO is a FIRST PERSON REAL TIME simulation.

However, interestingly enough, HEAT AFFECTS is something that can actually translate well with only minor modifications.

Movement affects in TT would happen next round. In MWO they can be real time, affecting your maximum KPH, changing as your 'mech gets more accumulated heat, or dissipates accumulated heat.

Same thing with any aiming modifications.

Same thing with ANY OTHER random heat affects you want to add to MWO's heat affects table to make things interesting and add balance.

Now, go ahead and respond with some OTHER non-point, go ahead. OR, maybe you can take a deep breath, think about MWO and how things actually work, weapons, and their various values, what actually occurs in a MWO match and come up with a salient argument.

I await your response.

You're applying a static game play model on top of a fluid based game play model. The 2 will and cannot be gel'd and also be considered FUN.

In TT you Move, Target, Fire, End turn. Heat reduces your next Turns ability. In MWO you Move, Target, Fire repeat until dead. Reducing the ability to Move, other than getting legged or shutting down, one you fault, the other the enemies, why reduce the ability of your War Machine as it does its job ffs. It would suck the FUN out of a non-static environment. Moving and shooting is MWO. Take that away and they might as well close the doors.

[Dimento Graven]

Almond Brown, on 29 August 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

You're applying a static game play model on top of a fluid based game play model. The 2 will and cannot be gel'd and also be considered FUN.

In TT you Move, Target, Fire, End turn. Heat reduces your next Turns ability. In MWO you Move, Target, Fire repeat until dead. Reducing the ability to Move, other than getting legged or shutting down, one you fault, the other the enemies, why reduce the ability of your War Machine as it does its job ffs. It would suck the FUN out of a non-static environment. Moving and shooting is MWO. Take that away and they might as well close the doors.

Wooops, except that almost every other previous computer based version of BattleTech has had REAL TIME heat affects.

Apparently you don't realize how simple adding something like that is. HELL, MWO ALREADY HAS ONE!!! It just doesn't have hardly any affects.

Here's MWO's current Heat Affects Table:
At 100% heat utilization, shutdown
At 100%+??% random internal CT damage

That's it, very lame I know, but it's there, what we're suggesting is that they add MORE to it.

This has ZERO to do with the excuse of "oh table top is not fluid" yadda yadda yadda, I'm so sick of that LAME *** excuse, find another please.

[Vulkur]

Almond Brown, on 29 August 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

You're applying a static game play model on top of a fluid based game play model. The 2 will and cannot be gel'd and also be considered FUN.

In TT you Move, Target, Fire, End turn. Heat reduces your next Turns ability. In MWO you Move, Target, Fire repeat until dead. Reducing the ability to Move, other than getting legged or shutting down, one you fault, the other the enemies, why reduce the ability of your War Machine as it does its job ffs. It would suck the FUN out of a non-static environment. Moving and shooting is MWO. Take that away and they might as well close the doors.

I think you could quite easily combine/overlap the two. Is there some reason you can't move and shoot and have more sophisticated heat concerns to worry about?