1105 replies to this topic

[nitra]

duplicate forum goofiness

Edited by nitra, 31 August 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[CyBerkut]

R 13, on 31 August 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

I know this will just get buried by the next 80 posts about how hard 3PV sucks, or how there are no TT rules that support jump sniping, etc. etc.

But I'm going to post it anyway and hope someone actually gets something from it:

Oh, I think we are getting something from it. Not what you hoped for in at least some cases.

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Most of what I read anymore is non-constructive bickering over stuff that doesn't even matter.

Well, first off... it obviously matters to them. Apparently, that doesn't matter to you. Currently, it appears that PGI is acting like it doesn't matter to them, either. Time will tell if it actually matters to their bottom line.

As for how constructive the posts have been... well, in forums you invariably see the whole gamut. Criticism can range from well thought out, well intentioned observations and suggested corrections, to tactical nuclear grade flame fests. One doesn't have to agree with all of PGI's implementation for the post to be acceptable. Constructive criticism inherently flows from a disagreement with the choice made, but then hopefully offers a well reasoned alternative. There's been plenty of such jewels offered on the forums.

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People have gotten so microscopically focused on minutia that they've lost sight of the fact that the game is still a work-in-progress, still optionally FREE to play if you are so inclined, and best of all, is a 'Mechwarrior game....not a knock-off, wannabe, generic clone. A legitimate Mechwarrior title: a phoenix resurrected by PGI/IGP from the fires of MSGS, FASA Interactive, Microprose, Activision, etc.

Steeped in lore and supported by a robust universe, with the blessing of the creator of it all no-less, it's so much more than big stompy robots. If you don't get that, you really need to read a book or two.

I don't think many people have lost sight of the fact that the game is still in development. While the oft cited "It's still in Beta" still makes a point... it is a diminishingly small one at this point in time. They are 'launching' later this month. Maybe you view it as good enough for that. In light of past statements on their own web site, pod casts and magazine interviews, etc... it's a far cry from what was to be expected. The (running out of?) money lens can make things awfully cloudy.

The BT/MW lore is indeed rich. Pointing to that as a reason why people should cut PGI more slack is not terribly convincing. Yes, they made a combat game that has a bunch of chassis/variants/weapons/equipment from the BT universe. The rich lore... well, they make some nice pieces of short fiction to introduce a new mech chassis. The lore is on the web site, not in the game. They are cashing in on the fact that there is a large fan base for the BT universe and MW games. That is a double-edged sword however. If you are going to cash in on that franchise, it comes with a lot of history that you contradict at your own peril.

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As for the "issues" everyone's all up in arms about....you guys need a hobby aside from finding people who are wrong on the internet....

Ah, the irony.

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Weapon balance will "always" be an issue depending on your perspective. 'Can't hit squat with a PPC or Gauss?...you're gonna have a bad time right now, particularly in competitive play. I fully expect the release of Clan Tech to throw the largest monkey wrench possible in the Meta. LRMs with no minimum range, PPCs that do the damage of a Gauss, weigh less, and take up fewer crits than a current PPC? Yeah, it'll be a mess.....The devs and programmers are human, but I also expect them to sort it out in the end for the same reason: They're human: they observe, reason, and learn.

They are undoubtedly human. The track record on observation, reasoning, and learning... well, that is in the eyes of the beholder. Their solutions have often been found wanting by a significant portion of the user base.

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As a (good) competitive 12v12 player, and oft-pug-dropper, 3PV has had NO IMPACT at all on my gaming experience. I don't use it, and I have yet to encounter a situation where I'm at all convinced that I was killed or disadvantaged by someone else using it.

Why? You ask? How could I think that?!? Well, because I'm not actively TRYING to find a problem with it just so I can whinge about it on the internet.

Your admitted lack of trying to see the problem does not exactly reinforce the strength of your argument there. It's no surprise that you do not see a problem that you are not looking for.

Contrary to your and PGI's contention, there are videos that clearly demonstrate the advantages that can be obtained by players
utilizing 3PV, or switching between the 2 modes. It matters little that you do not see it, or that PGI claims that they do not see it.
Other people see it. Your unwillingness to look for it, does not make their observations any less valid. It changes the game into something else, and many people do not wish to play it.

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I think IGP/PGI have done a good job so far and the only thing I would fault any of them for would be possibly TOO MUCH transparency and occasionally speaking in absolutes ("never" "always", etc.) ...because that's just given the trolls something on which to focus their nerd-rage.

Yeah, speaking in absolutes is a tricky business, and usually best avoided. It's actually pretty easy to avoid. Of course, if you need to mollify the people who are pissed off about breaking the 1PV-Only design pillar, so that you can get them to hopefully spend money of the Phoenix Project package... It's probably awfully tempting to say whatever you think you need to in order to quell the uprising. Yeah, tell those anti-3PV zealots they'll NEVER have to play in 3PV, or against someone using 3PV, so they'll shut up, and then we can roll that PhoPro package out and get some more filthy lucre!

The problem is... if you don't have the integrity to honor the promises made before accepting money... you find that a lot of people do not take kindly to that. And the internet has a long memory.

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It's not easy to take something with as much canon baggage as the Mechwarrior/Battletech universe and get it right such that it has both mass appeal (necessary for making money and keeping the fun alive) and cater to the harder core folks who've played the TT and every prevous MW in existance.

That's intuitively obvious before one even takes on such an endeavor. As such, you either decide to do the difficult things, or you leave it alone. If you decide to do it, put on the big boy pants and get it done.

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As one of those hardcore folks (TT and PC games back to crescent-hawk, etc), I'm perfectly willing to allow n00bs their 3PV pretty-mech view, if it means I get to play a Battletech-based Mechwarrior game without having to mod some other game, or run something in Win '98 compatibility mode.

It did not have to be done the way it was. They could have made the 3PV or mixed view mode a separate queue. That would have at least honored their pre PhoPro project promise. The often advised tutorial alternative solution would have even been better. But no... they chose to break their word, yet again.

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Thanks for all you do.
As a Geek/Yuppy/Technophile with slightly too much free time and slightly too much disposable income, I am your target demographic and I support what you are doing.

Actually, has anybody seen PGI actually define what their target demographic (currently) is? Based on their actions and claims, I would not be too sure, R 13, that you really are their target demographic. Of course, back when MWO was starting up, it was the hardcore BT/MW fans that were the target demographic for coughing up money on the Founders program... and we see where that has gone. PGI has demonstrated their willingness to change their focus to a different market segment... so you may not want to get too invested in your gratitude.

[DeadlyNerd]

So basically, they needed a whole month to determine whether Elo as working fine or not, but suddenly 1 week is enough for 3PV.

Really? Oh right, that was your position at the time and I'm on an island, right.

And another thing. If the majority is silent, how do you know what they want? Who told you, and from whom you've heard that?

It's baffling how such ridiculous claims are actually considered valid and posted to a community that's already on the edge because of bad communication.

chiXu, on 31 August 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

26 days and counting until the launch event.

26 days and counting until MWO's D-Day.

Germans lost that battle. Needless to say, just like PGI, they were pompously confident in their tactic and fortifications.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 01 September 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[MizarPanzer]

As a founder with only 50 posts, I should qualify for the 'silent majority'.

I am OK with heat penalty, the cool shot, and I'm even ready to tolerate the 3PV (although not the oathbreaking that associated with the separate queue). I have played a few online games so far and this is the first one where the developers openly and explicitedly told its most dedicated and passinate core group of players, many of whom invested in this game so that it is possible in the first place, that they don't care about their feedback because they are no longer their target demographics.

And please don't come to me and say how 'successful' your game is. The cold, hard math shows that your game is at rock bottom compared to other vehicle combat sims such as WOT, Warthunder and the forthcoming Star Citizen:

http://www.google.co...%20tanks&cmpt=q

Right, I'm not your target demographic. Let me just tell you with a straight face, if you want to fight with WOT for a 3rd person arcade vehicle combat MMO, you are seriously deluded. You are already short on numbers, and you just gave me the middle finger.

PGI, please wake up. MWO, please don't die.

[BadgerWI]

↑ what he said. I want this game to succeed but man there are some questionable decisions happening. As odd as this sounds this feels like star wars galaxies when they saw all the the cash wow was raking in and said me 2 and changed the entire game and lost 1/2 the player base over night chasing the mythical perfect demo.

Edited by BadgerWI, 01 September 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[CyBerkut]

You would think they would want to add this new target demographic to their previously existing player base, instead of chasing part of the existing player base off in the process of seeking that greener grass on the other side of the fence. As in... add a 3PV, or mixed view queue to the previous 1PV-Only queues, rather than outright replacement. PGI was claiming thousands of matches running at any given moment, so supporting a set of parallel queues should have do-able.

Of course, PGI might not have been representing the population numbers very well. After all, they stopped showing the number of players online counter a long time ago...

If they thought 3PV / mixed view was going to bring in a bunch of new players, and the 3PV / mixed view was needed to get new players in and used to handling the legs vs torso twist (and the oft recommended tutorial was just too hard to put together by now...), why didn't they just make a parallel mixed view queue for new players that they could only access during their first 25 games? They already track that first 25 games and handle them differently on rewards, so that part of the equation was already solved.

Such an approach would not have alienated a sizable segment of the experienced, core player base, as we would not have been in that queue. It would not have detracted from the 1PV-Only queue in any sizable amount. If it turned out that the beginner queue was too small, then extend the game count out to something larger (ie. the first 50, 75, or whatever games).

[Solis Obscuri]

MizarPanzer, on 01 September 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

As a founder with only 50 posts, I should qualify for the 'silent majority'.

I am OK with heat penalty, the cool shot, and I'm even ready to tolerate the 3PV (although not the oathbreaking that associated with the separate queue). I have played a few online games so far and this is the first one where the developers openly and explicitedly told its most dedicated and passinate core group of players, many of whom invested in this game so that it is possible in the first place, that they don't care about their feedback because they are no longer their target demographics.

And please don't come to me and say how 'successful' your game is. The cold, hard math shows that your game is at rock bottom compared to other vehicle combat sims such as WOT, Warthunder and the forthcoming Star Citizen:

http://www.google.co...%20tanks&cmpt=q

Right, I'm not your target demographic. Let me just tell you with a straight face, if you want to fight with WOT for a 3rd person arcade vehicle combat MMO, you are seriously deluded. You are already short on numbers, and you just gave me the middle finger.

PGI, please wake up. MWO, please don't die.

Adding "Mechwarrior Online" seriously improves the search, though it also brings in some false hits for MW3, MW4, and MW2.
http://www.google.co...20online&cmpt=q
Of course, star citizen brings in a lot more false hits for people looking for local newspapers... (On a side note amazing how the high index for "Mechwarrior Online" War Thunder" and "World of Tanks" is Russia, but mwomercs is the USA and Star Citizen is... South Africa?)

But all that aside, I kinda tend to agree with everything you've been saying, and...



I'm getting the perception that PGI's current position towards Founders/core BT fans is "they have no other Mechwarrior options now that MWLL is dead, we just won't make them quite unhappy enough to leave." And while I understand it's impossible to make everyone happy all of the time, and that it's not reasonable to try to market a "AAA title" exclusively to a small set of grognards, it's another thing to come out and tell your core, long term backers that they are no longer the "target audience" and that they will be dismissed as a "vocal minority" when they give feedback (after my experiences with some other game companies, notably Flying Lab Software, I immediately lose confidence in any company who claims to be basing decisions on a "silent majority" and refuse to quantify those metrics to the players giving feedback openly on their forums).

I also think MWO needs to work over its new player experience a lot before before Launch, and 3PV isn't well set-up to help new players... and neither are Ghost Heat, Pebbles of Steel, ECM, grouping weapons in-match, the new overheat penalties, trial 'mechs with SHS dropping in common queues, etc. and there's no indication any of that will get looked at before Launch. It would only take an afternoon to work up a decent .pdf with instructions on basic maneuvering, weapons group setup, part of the HUD, more detailed equipment descriptions, descriptions of the slope deceleration for different 'mechs, with some screenshots and graphics to explain those things... but we still don't have it. People have been asking for a separate "stock 'mech only" queue since CB, so they can set-up matches with only canon designs... still no one working on it, despite that it'd be the best place to launch new players into (and I'm sure they'd have plenty of chances to meet vets, since there'd be plenty of companies in there to run recruiting!). We still don't even have a lobby option to send groups into training drops (though I hope some of that will come along with UI2.0).

Really, I have every reason to expect that any new players in the "target audience" with little/no prior MW experience will drop in a confusing 3PV mode in bad stock 'mechs straight into matches against experienced vets in FotM cheese-builds, who will jump-snipe them to pieces (exploiting 3PV), then struggle to figure out how best to outfit a 'mech once they can afford it (especially with the wonky unexplained heat penalties), then run out of cash once their Cadet Bonus runs out, because match earnings will be terrible unless you're a top-scorer, and they won't be top scorers.

The combination of poor earnings, no experience (fast TTK will high-alpha meta and 12-man focused fire won't help them get much, either), confusing undocumented game mechanics, straight-up stat disadvantages (no DHS or unlocks), provide a lot of incentive for casuals with no BT background to log off and never come back - as will the realization that there are only two kinds of Team Deathmatch to play, and possibly no endgame Community Warfare at the time of Launch (this is sounding more and more like it will be the case, and the devs haven't answered to the contrary).

My best guess is that the next carrot we'll see from PGI post-launch will be the promise of introducing the Clans, and between trying to field newbie concerns to improve retention and trying to put together a package of Clan 'mechs, then trying to figure out any way at all to gate and balance them, CW is going be stuck on the back burner for most of the first year after Launch unless it starts with some kind of a toehold in the game at launch. (I don't believe, from anything I've seen yet, that UI2.0 alone can provide that toehold.)

So in addition to the lurking feeling that PGI is now viewing me as a part of a cash-cow demographic who will give them milk for free, I also have a a lot of concerns for the health of the game post-Launch, and with the paucity of promised CW features appearing in the last several months combined with bad and somewhat insulting communication from the devs, I'm finding very little to reassure myself with.

[Chronojam]

Somebody should Ask The Devs why it's an exploit to carefully build mechs that take heat into consideration. I would imagine their core/target demographic would be the kind of player who wants to immerse themselves in mech customization and plans out confi--

Wait a second, no. That's exactly it. They want you to like the Trial Mechs, and expect you to like the Trial Mechs, and think careful planning is an exploit because their target demographic are people who just want to push "Play" and be in a match without a second thought. That's why they don't care about the fact you can only play in groups of 4 or 8-now-12, everything in between be damned. That's why you have been unable to see what your teammates are running for so long.

It makes sense now, if you view it from that angle. Who cares that the Command Console has been worthless 3 tons of nothing for months, if you'll never be refitting a mech in the first place?

Edited by Chronojam, 01 September 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[sokitumi]

UI 2.0 to be released right at the end of BETA.

right... 2.0...
... beta....

genius.

[Kes Moreau]

Metacritic will be LOL !!

[Corvus Antaka]

MizarPanzer, on 01 September 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

As a founder with only 50 posts, I should qualify for the 'silent majority'.

I am OK with heat penalty, the cool shot, and I'm even ready to tolerate the 3PV (although not the oathbreaking that associated with the separate queue). I have played a few online games so far and this is the first one where the developers openly and explicitedly told its most dedicated and passinate core group of players, many of whom invested in this game so that it is possible in the first place, that they don't care about their feedback because they are no longer their target demographics.

And please don't come to me and say how 'successful' your game is. The cold, hard math shows that your game is at rock bottom compared to other vehicle combat sims such as WOT, Warthunder and the forthcoming Star Citizen:

http://www.google.co...%20tanks&cmpt=q

Right, I'm not your target demographic. Let me just tell you with a straight face, if you want to fight with WOT for a 3rd person arcade vehicle combat MMO, you are seriously deluded. You are already short on numbers, and you just gave me the middle finger.

PGI, please wake up. MWO, please don't die.

People that looks for mechs search MECHWARRIOR

http://www.google.co...hwarrior&cmpt=q

Using mechwarrior (because thats what this game is CALLED) gives us much different results, results where we see that behind world of tanks we have...MECHWARRIOR.

Lets not be too stupid here people. I know it's hard.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 01 September 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[Mechteric]

I am a conflicted gamer when it comes to MWO. I still enjoy the game, and 3pv didn't bother me, neither did coolshot (to this day I still haven't used it cuz I prefer my passive perks)s.

The only irksome thing to me has been the ghost heat really. I'm definitely glad it helped curb those insane 4-6 PPC stalkers, but I think now that we get damage as soon as we are over 100% heat I think that the ghost heat should be looked at again to see if its necessary versus other mechanics that make sure high heat builds are appropriately limited. Especially once the Gauss changes come along to help to "desync" them with PPCs I think we'll find that the current heat penalty system may not be necessary.



NOTE: This has been an example of polite discourse and discussion.

[Windies]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 01 September 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

People that looks for mechs search MECHWARRIOR

http://www.google.co...hwarrior&cmpt=q

Using mechwarrior (because thats what this game is CALLED) gives us much different results, results where we see that behind world of tanks we have...MECHWARRIOR.

Lets not be too stupid here people. I know it's hard.

Except that searching for Mechwarrior alone includes almost every game under the sun up to this point skewing the results in your favor. Of course you already knew that....

Take your own advice there.

War Thunder still beats it anyways, fancy that. Hell even Star Citizen jumps ahead of it using your biased approach.

http://www.google.co...ay%203-m&cmpt=q

hows Mechwarrior look over the past 90 days compared to the other 3?

Edited by Windies, 01 September 2013 - 08:24 PM.

[warp103]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 01 September 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

People that looks for mechs search MECHWARRIOR

http://www.google.co...hwarrior&cmpt=q

Using mechwarrior (because thats what this game is CALLED) gives us much different results, results where we see that behind world of tanks we have...MECHWARRIOR.

Lets not be too stupid here people. I know it's hard.

lol now now calling people names. Your results show it behind war thunder , Star C and other does not look good for you.

lol and now the latest news Wiki and slashdot
.Wow that is I think, the 6 or 7th print article about this. Less then 3 week till the news will get worst. The treads are starting to really pick this up. \/\/\/

http://games.slashdo...mmunity-warfare

Community reaction to Third Person camera

On August 20th, 2013, MechWarrior Online included a third person camera mode, despite earlier developer promises during the Founder period that this feature would not be implemented. This feature led to a large community backlash on the official forums, following several other recent feature changes that had been poorly communicated by the developer, including a heat penalty system and an increase from 16 players to 24 players per match. ^{[17] [18] [19]} Players began requesting refunds for the Phoenix Project package, a packaged deal similar to the original Founders package, in response to the release. An apology was issued by PGI President Russ Bullock, but was poorly received.^[20]

Edited by warp103, 01 September 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[repete]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 01 September 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

People that looks for mechs search MECHWARRIOR

http://www.google.co...hwarrior&cmpt=q

Using mechwarrior (because thats what this game is CALLED) gives us much different results, results where we see that behind world of tanks we have...MECHWARRIOR.

As was said Windies, "mechwarrior" will be picking up absolutely everything to do with the name, though I'm surprised neither of you searched for "mechwarrior online" since it is the name of the game:

http://www.google.co...+world+of+tanks

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 01 September 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Lets not be too stupid here people. I know it's hard.

Speak for yourself...

Edited by repete, 01 September 2013 - 08:39 PM.

[Tyranum]

Pretty sad that you need to address threats and abuse of any kind. As a MWO community member it sickens and embarrasses me to think people would even contemplate doing this. It's no excuse at all and I would never defend that behavior...I'm just thinking one way you could take it is that you've created something people are passionate about...it's just unfortunate that that is how they show it.

[Tannhauser Gate]

It just means that the forum is rife with trolls and goons now. During closed beta, the forums used to be civil and provide good discussion and feedback. Now its just a mob of trolls, people who think they are entitled, who think the game is a disaster (the word "beta" is lost on them), who think they are owed something, who cant grasp that its PGI's project, or who wonder why insulting the devs doesn't give them a positive working relationship lol..

[Kilo 40]

what an awesome "community".

death threats over a PoV.

amazing.

[Sean von Steinike]

LakeDaemon, on 01 September 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

It just means that the forum is rife with trolls and goons now. During closed beta, the forums used to be civil and provide good discussion and feedback. Now its just a mob of trolls, people who think they are entitled, who think the game is a disaster (the word "beta" is lost on them), who think they are owed something, who cant grasp that its PGI's project, or who wonder why insulting the devs doesn't give them a positive working relationship lol..

So, you'll be happy with gold ammo and no community warfare? Granted that making threats of violence is inexcusable, but people have a right to expect to be given what was in effect, promised.

[Corvus Antaka]

repete, on 01 September 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

As was said Windies, "mechwarrior" will be picking up absolutely everything to do with the name, though I'm surprised neither of you searched for "mechwarrior online" since it is the name of the game:

http://www.google.co...+world+of+tanks

Speak for yourself...

people dont tend to search for "mechwarrior online" they search for "mechwarrior". Why? because typing 2 words is pointless in this case. people type "World of tanks" because if you typed "world of" that wouldn't make sense. With mechwarrior this isn't the case.

You are intentionally fibbing these results and choosing low yield/chosen terms to somehow satisfy your tiny ego that this game is "hurting", and being quite deliberate about this deception.

Never mind that "world of tanks" gives TONS more results than anything to do with the game world of tanks.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 01 September 2013 - 10:22 PM.