109 replies to this topic

[Dmitri Valenov]

Man, did I call it or what?

Waaaaaay back in late closed beta/early open beta everyone was (rightfully so) complaining about 8 man teams dropping against entire groups of solo players. Oh the hate and vitriol that was spewed forth upon these forums. While I did not particularly enjoy 8 man Pubstomping, I accepted it as a reality because I chose to mostly PUG in what is supposed to be a team oriented game.

At any rate, at the height of anti-team rage, I predicted that once the team size was reduced to a max of 4-man vs. PUGs that people would still complain with just as much fury and fervor because they believe (wrongfully so) that they should win every game because they are, of course, the most awesome and epic player to venture in to the video game world.

Thank you everyone, for proving me right and refusing to make any attempt at team coordination while simultaneously running to these forums and QQing your hearts out about how terrible the game is because some people actually want to play with their friends.

Dmitri

[MeiSooHaityu]

I wouldn't count on ever getting a solo only que.

Basically the Devs and the community want you to join a group and install 3rd party team speak software. If the developers and the community at large think you are playing the game wrong, they aren't going to accomadate you, they are going to try and push you the way THEY want you to play. Even the loading screen tips say...Get VOIP software...Join a group....

Heck, they even installed the controversial 3PV before helping out PUGs. If that doesn't send a clear message, I don't know what does.

There MIGHT be a chance that a solo que might EVENTUALLY happen, but it is small and not even close to a priority for the Devs IMO.

Not trying to sound bitter (even though I am a bit), just trying to say don't hold your breath.

[Trauglodyte]

I get what you're saying, OP, and I agree, to a point, that premades should be seperated from solo drops OR at least have the same number of premades on each side. But, you're talking about PGI doing something as bold as fixing - FIXING - the ELO and matchmaker. They are both a steaming pile of refuse due to the already complete and total lack of weight balancing but you want them to add yet another feature to the list of features that aren't already included? Dude!

[Khavi Vetali]

Man, the OP is just going to love it when they implement tonnage restrictions, remove the 4 man group limit and MERGE the 12man and general queue together.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

I feel like some people will always refuse to accept that at its heart, this is a group PVP game.

This isn't a complaint about Elo or 4 man groups. It's about losing. You don't like to lose. No one dose. The fact is that you are probably not as good as you think you are. The solution is not to whine for an entirely solo queue. It's to make friends and Get Better™.

Edited by crabcakes66, 28 August 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[I am]

Khavi Vetali, on 28 August 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Man, the OP is just going to love it when they implement tonnage restrictions, remove the 4 man group limit and MERGE the 12man and general queue together.

If that happens, this game is doomed.

[Bobdolemite]

I agree with what the OP has said in regard to the need for in game voice comms and a solo only queue (or perhaps small grps 2-3 included)

But in further reading we begin to disagree on a few points, ELO or matchmaking rules in general are a good idea IMO - Its just that currently they are totally broken and offer match after match of utter garbage. As to banning 3rd party voice comms I dont agree, communication is paramount in this game and the fact that there is no integrated in game option is truly disappointing. In fact I have a hard time understanding why PGI has neglected this so long. IMO integrated voice is industry standard for FPS / Action Shooter, and this is not a new thing, this has been an established genre hallmark for literally years.

As to Solo Queue Vs Prefems (yes I am coining a new term, getting tired of ROFLSTOMP and its derivatives) 12 v 12 has changed the dynamic of the game making the impact of 4 mans less important than it was in an 8 v 8 setting. But IMO a strong 4 man team still inordinately increases the odds for the friendly team to win, netting those who group a higher win and kill rate thus allowing them more exp and cbills than the average non grouping player of equal skill would earn. (not to mention this up to 12 man garbage they are proposing, this will only make the situation 100% worse)

The biggest issue IMO is not even communication, its the ability to pick mechs and builds that have synergy. A prefem mech lineup is superior in every way to a PUG lineup. Even if the tonnages are balanced correctly the prefem group will be better equipped to take advantage of one-anothers contribution. Theres nothing wrong with this of course, building a good team should be a skill people want to develop and use, though it has no place in a mixed PUG environment.

Groups will ALWAYS have a distinct advantage even before skill is taken into account for two reasons - team optimization pre match, and communication. For these reasons PUGS are forever at a disadvantage at the start of the game even before anyone has moved.

Those who argue against separating the queues for groups and solo often claim that for every group there is a match of equal size on the opposite team. This is circumstantial at best and un-provable in any real context since we cannot see who is and isnt in a group. With how broken ELO is I seriously doubt that it gets it right, more often than not I seem to get prefems back to back at certain times of the day. If I didnt truly love this game I would have been gone MONTHS ago but giant stompy robots keep bringing me back.

I have said it a million times as have others, this game needs a solo / casual mode and a group / competitive mode. The competitive teams have no business being pitted against PUGS - this hurts new player retention as with broken ELO they are constantly dropped into high level play and obliterated to heckled calls in chat. It hurts long term player retention due to the same reasons mixed with min/max hell where you cant go outside a small box of hardpoint logic or suffer the consequences. It even hurts the games long term potential because lets be honest, the type of people who want such heavy handed easy games are fickle and bore easily. Once they have had their fill of trolling they will be on their way a trail of former players in their wake.

I havent played this game in over a week, and to be honest im not missing it. This is partly due to match quality (where groups are a concern) and lack of game development (broken content, lack of patches, pushed back content releases, lack of developer communication etc)

A solo queue or casual play (even with small grps 2-3 included) is a legitimate request and something that PGI should not ignore. There are many players like me who want a solo queue as evidenced by the many threads constantly generated on the subject. We dont hate teamwork, we are not anti social, we just dont want to HAVE to get a preform group in order to enjoy gameplay. I for one like PUG play where you never know who your teammates are, I think it offers more diverse playstyle options. I find it more challenging to work with a new group of people every match, a win under these conditions certainly tastes much sweeter than some prefabbed infinite repeat that the current mixed groupings.

Find a way to include it in the game, if its part of the perspective split (if it happens) or if its part of a deathmatch mode.... ill really take it any way I can get it, I just want a mode where im not pitted against preforms. Please for the millionth time, PGI find a way to include solo players in your grand scheme, many of us are paying customers (Bought Overlord) who want to see this game be successfull. (Id like to see a simple dedicated PUG + 2-3 queue and a 4+ group queue - but like I said ill take it any way I can get it)

Look at it this way, by adding a solo queue your not removing anything from the game or alienating part of the player base. Your adding an option to attract players who want a more casual playstyle (and there are many of these).

Edited by Bobdolemite, 28 August 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[Doomstryke]

pretty simple fix for the voice {Scrap} would be simple key binds for like 1 command

target lance comander's target for focus fire

the rest can be spewed out withing the 1-2 min before combat starts.

That would help with organization. that or just a macro'ed attack current target. bit like the macro'ed stuff CS used to do

[Screech]

Khavi Vetali, on 28 August 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Man, the OP is just going to love it when they implement tonnage restrictions, remove the 4 man group limit and MERGE the 12man and general queue together.

I believe they will then match by group size and Elo then which will be fine. But then again that is only what they say they will do, who knows what they actually do.

[Training Instructor]

Khobai, on 27 August 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

The worst part is players think crushing pugs in a 4man makes them good.

What makes you good is carrying your entire team solo, when theres a 4 man on the other team. Thats what I do.



No it doesnt. Groups of 2-3 go in the pug queue. Groups of 4 or more go in the group queue. No purpose is defeated. You want to play a team game? Fine... play against other teams. That is fair.

Right now pugs are not a team... theyre a group of confused individuals who are handed mechs and told to follow the blue mechs and shoot the red mechs. There is no strategy or tactics and half the time pugs end up being a burden because they stand directly behind you so you cant back up, and end up taking tons of damage.

A 4-man is a team. They communicate with eachother. They work together. They focus fire. That is why 4-mans have no place in pug matches. Even 2-3 mans are teams, but I feel denying players the ability to group with their friends is wrong, so I think groups of 2-3 should be allowed.

I'm in complete agreement with this. Was in a group of 3, then 2, on comstar tonight. Kept on running into groups that were way too coordinated to be anything other than dedicated four mans. In one instance, on Terra Therma, I was pretty sure it was a sync drop because we were holding the center and two heavies/assaults showed up at 3 different entrances at the exact same time and shot the exact same targets, one after another. Yes, I know that holding the center of that map is not optimal, but it was a classic case of 6 players being on voice coms and focus firing. That makes a pretty big difference in a 12 man.

It's completely frustrating to have a string of {Scrap} matches in a row, due to a combination of personal error and matchmaking. Personal error I can live with, but matchmaking fixing the game absolutely ruins it for me.

[Training Instructor]

PEEFsmash, on 28 August 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

First of all, do you think I care about cbills at this point?

Second of all, if you would like to duel me 1v1, let me know. My username is PEEFsmash and I play basically every evening. Until then, don't claim you will "own me" unless you're willing to be publicly embarrassed in a streamed 1v1.

So? In a thread about teams vs solo players, you call someone out for a duel you will probably win. It's quite arrogant to assume that they care about how special of player you are. You're crying out for vindication in an online game. This is normally an indication that you don't receive much of this out in the world. You want people to respect you and your unit, but we mostly end up feeling sorry for you, because we know exactly what you are.

Nice internet warrior. I work in an office full of educated Russian girls, most between the ages of 23-30, looks ranging from average to stunning, and many of them single.

Remember that your online reality is a dream for some of us. Remember that your offline dream is a reality for some of us. This may help you make more posts in the future that won't continue to degrade the very little respect your unit already has. We already know you're exceptional video game players, but you keep giving us reasons not to respect you as people, and respect is what you are really seeking.

[DerSpecht]

Theres no Need for stunning educated russian girls if you have ehonoure. Edit: Wtf is wrong with my spelling correction?

Edited by DerSpecht, 28 August 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Training Instructor, on 28 August 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

So? In a thread about teams vs solo players, you call someone out for a duel you will probably win. It's quite arrogant to assume that they care about how special of player you are. You're crying out for vindication in an online game. This is normally an indication that you don't receive much of this out in the world. You want people to respect you and your unit, but we mostly end up feeling sorry for you, because we know exactly what you are.

Nice internet warrior. I work in an office full of educated Russian girls, most between the ages of 23-30, looks ranging from average to stunning, and many of them single.

Remember that your online reality is a dream for some of us. Remember that your offline dream is a reality for some of us. This may help you make more posts in the future that won't continue to degrade the very little respect your unit already has. We already know you're exceptional video game players, but you keep giving us reasons not to respect you as people, and respect is what you are really seeking.

Did you read what I was responding to? Before you go on with another psychological evaluation, read the context. I didn't "call someone out," I was called out myself.

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 27 August 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

@ peefsmash [...] the people like me who only drop solo and dont have the TS crutch will own you and make your ego explode. So you make excuses...

That's what we call a direct call-out. Saying that he will "own" me and I would just make excuses. I accepted the challenge.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 28 August 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

This thread is bad and the OP is off his/her rocker. I don't mind grouping because there is often another 4 man on the other side. Grouping up with friends shouldn't be disallowed. The fact that we're in 2013 and playing a game that does NOT have integrated voice comms is awful. That PGI openly supports TS3 and other programs is worse when they should have it on THEIR game!

Btw, that's pretty weak calling someone out and commenting on ego when you, OP, are blasting everyone for no reason.

[Bipper]

The OP is right, people like us Founders (who actually contribute actual money to the game) aren't going to carry the game into the future. It's going to be freeplaying leeches like him who pay all of the server and development bills.

[ExAstris]

Bobdolemite, on 28 August 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Look at it this way, by adding a solo queue your not removing anything from the game or alienating part of the player base. Your adding an option to attract players who want a more casual playstyle (and there are many of these).

This isn't quite true. Queue times get affected because the solo-only players won't be able to fill in the gaps for the preforms to get full teams ready on both sides quickly.

If the wait times get too long, you're really hurting your player base by making them wait excruciating periods of time just so they can play the exact same couple of enemy groups over and over.

But there is a better way...

Bobdolemite, on 28 August 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

A solo queue or casual play (even with small grps 2-3 included) is a legitimate request and something that PGI should not ignore. There are many players like me who want a solo queue as evidenced by the many threads constantly generated on the subject. We dont hate teamwork, we are not anti social, we just dont want to HAVE to get a preform group in order to enjoy gameplay. I for one like PUG play where you never know who your teammates are, I think it offers more diverse playstyle options. I find it more challenging to work with a new group of people every match, a win under these conditions certainly tastes much sweeter than some prefabbed infinite repeat that the current mixed groupings.

Find a way to include it in the game, if its part of the perspective split (if it happens) or if its part of a deathmatch mode.... ill really take it any way I can get it, I just want a mode where im not pitted against preforms. Please for the millionth time, PGI find a way to include solo players in your grand scheme, many of us are paying customers (Bought Overlord) who want to see this game be successfull. (Id like to see a simple dedicated PUG + 2-3 queue and a 4+ group queue - but like I said ill take it any way I can get it)

This is a great explication of what solo players want. We like the variety of the combat, and we have a strong preference to not have to deal with talking to people and forming groups before we play a game. Forcing us to do something we find inherently unfun in order to get to the fun is not optimal because, just like the premade problem above, we are now being penalized with an unpleasant pre-game experience that taints our game-experience.

But there is a middle ground that provides only the smallest hardship to one group while providing benefit to both groups.

Add a loose premade balance algorithm to the matchmaker. It doesn't have to be exact, but matching give or take a player would do just fine. So if a group of 3 join one team, the other team will have a group of 2,3, or 4 on it.

This will prevent games where 8 preforms are on one side and none are on the other. Those games aren't fun for PUGs, either when you're with the preforms (I could play whack'a'mole, where at least I can compete against my own best scores) or against them (which is usually a predictable and disheartening reminder of how little love the solo players get as well as a highly repetitive and flavor dulling exercise in PUG extirpation).




Doing this has only one negative aspect. Larger premades have to wait a few more seconds for the matchmaker to find an appropriate set of opposing premades (perhaps larger premades such as an 8 man could be pitted against anything from 8-12 players in smaller premades such as 2x4, 3x4, 3x3, etc.).

Other than that, there are positives all around. We can let groups of any size drop, no more 4man cap. But we don't lose the benefit of that 4man cap either, which, since the introduction of 12v12, has served to make games generally more fair because it is much harder to stack only one side with premades. So with premade matching, we still have more fair matches for everyone, solo and preforms alike.

Furthermore, for the solo-players who like the variety in dropping with randoms, this is the best of both worlds. Sometimes you'll be in a group that's almost all preforms, but you'll be against almost all preforms, removing the disparity that made previous matchings so unbearable. And sometimes you'll be in all pugs vs all pugs.



Maximum variety, maximum match fairness, maximum flexibility in premade construction; and the only cost is a simple addition to the matchmaker algorithm that causes some premades to wait a few more seconds so they can have a more fair match against an opponent that has had an approximately equal time to organize and prepare.





The only reason PGI wouldn't implement this solution is if they think the reward for playing in preforms should be pugstomping.

The reward for playing in preforms is the experience of playing in coordinated groups and/or with your friends. Crushing helpless opponents is not a release a competitive online multiplayer game should cater to. I can boot up a single player game and set the AI to easy any time I want that dribble.

[James Warren]

Myself and I'm sure many other founders play exclusively PUG.

I still think people should be encouraged, rather than discouraged, to drop in groups. Problem isn't the fact that people want to play with their friends, its that the game isn't really set up at the moment to properly cater for those types of players. We need better friends lists, a social tab or similar, and a way of quickly adding people who you have played with and would like to play with (or against) again.

What makes the notorious 'exclusive premium pugstomper club' is mostly the reliance on third-party programs to organise and coordinate a group. I know these programs are just as simple to install as the game itself, but MWO should not be dependant on 3rd party programs like this, simply because the features they provide are some of the staple components of modern online gaming.

I miss the early days of online gaming where many games had a lobby to sort out who was on which team, etc. There were games like Battlezone where players could actually discuss which map they wanted, what vehicle to drop in, who is the team commander and so on. I understand that in this day and age everything needs to be streamlined so that people are getting into games quickly without hassle, but there's still something to learn from the past.

We really need built-in voice chat. Even if it is disabled by default, just to level the playing field and allow better communication between both PUGs and pre-mades.

And I'll agree that the ELO needs to take groups into better consideration, but otherwise I'm not really bothered by being in games with pre-made groups on either side.

[Wired]

akpavker, on 27 August 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

TS is fine in the game but he has a point......pgi should have a ingme voice chat system.

The real feature people have been asking for since closed beta.

[hashinshin]

How to detect logical fallacy:

"4mans always win!"

Only one of these can be true. Either the 4mans are NOT always winning and therefore not moving up the ELO brackets, or the 4mans ARE always winning and moving up the ELO brackets... to where they will get worse and worse teams and lose their games.

Unless you're suggesting every team except for you is amazing?

[R Razor]

Sounds like the folks QQing about 3rd party chat software and the advantage it gives really need to make some friends and try it out themselves. If they want to "stand on principle" then they should stop complaining when they get slapped down by people that have friends and work together.

Voice comms aren't always a magic bullet, I've been in games that have been lost even when we couldn't confirm a premade on comms on the other team, but they do help.

I've also played against at least one or two other folks posting in here that are on comms and in premades, we've spanked them soundly on multiple occasions and we've been beaten by them on an equal number of occasions.........it's all part of the game.

Stop whining and play the game.