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Mechwarrior Battle Value (Mbv)


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#21 Kin3ticX

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:34 PM

View Postpaxmortis, on 21 September 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:


The only weekness is the XL engine but thats the reason it give no modifier for XL and non XL engines.


I am curious why you don't want to give a modifier for STD/XL.To me, this is more important for Mechwarrior than for tabletop. In tabletop, XL's had less of a downside like on the Atlas-K or AWE-9m because it was only "luck" to focus fire a side torso with dice. However, in MWO it is simply point and click, so its is widely practiced to never never put XL in some mechs because of this vulnerability.

Suggestion:

STD Engine (old tech) : +Positive MBV on engine for the extra survivability with -negative spin-off; -Normal Speed, -Normal Payload,

XL Engine (new tech) : -Negative MBV Modifier on engine with +positive MBV spin-off; +Increased Speed, +Increased Payload,

This is because some builds "min max" XL's to increase payload, or to increase speed, or a mix of this but it still gives 3 center torsos. So we should assume the builder will in theory only use XL's to get a better MBV. (for example: a Pretty Baby with an XL 400 will have little payload for weapons, so there is a diminishing return MBV effect on top of having three center torsos)

This would capture some bonuses and downsides from driving a STD engine or an XL. However, I am worried your current MBVs would get wonky or inflated.

Cheers

Edited by Kin3ticX, 22 September 2013 - 03:34 PM.


#22 Crashingmail

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:01 PM

There was an evening full of discussion with pros and cons regarding engine should affect MBV that way.
But the pros and cons showed that like u already wrote, with an XL u got a lower survivability, but has a higher speed and more loadout. And with a standard reactor you can survive longer, but u are slower and get less weapons into your mech.

So this would negate this. Otherwise you need to recalculate the engine mbv for each mech chassis individually regarding side torso hit chance, but than the MBV would get more and more complex to calculate and need to be adjusted every time the hit zones are changed.

Edited by Crashingmail, 22 September 2013 - 10:02 PM.


#23 Kin3ticX

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:41 AM

Good point. Perhaps what I am thinking of then is a BV bonus for a occupied CT or Head Hardpoint only when combined with a STD engine. Basically a small zombie bonus. Even if its only a token amount. Maybe STD mechs without a CT hardpoint get a half zombie bonus?

What about some negative MBV for ammo in the CT, arms, head, or sides unless it has CASE? Maybe neutral ammo in the legs? Little adjustments like that here and there are what I am thinking of. Since it gets divided by 10 its only gonna turn out to be just points here and there....

Edited by Kin3ticX, 23 September 2013 - 03:47 AM.


#24 Karl Streiger

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:14 AM

a negative modificator for a XL engine is a two edged sword:
the advantage is: a AS7-K is rated as the "bad" machine it is...killing a AS7-K stock should hardly need more time as killing a Hunchback with STD fusion.

The disadvantage is that a negative XL engine rating will also effect the Spider or the Jenner.... that means a hard to beat enemy will cost less BV for an excellent battlefield performance.


Hope i can get online this week, so we could chat a little bit...
but i have some issues....

mainly because it is called BATTLE value not CONSTRUCTION value :P

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 September 2013 - 04:19 AM.


#25 Morashtak

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 03:43 PM

While the individual numbers could be debated the overall take-away is that this is a force balancer much better suited to a MW game than a simple tonnage match-maker.

The mBV of the different mechs are startling when one compares the standard to the champions mechs.

It will be interesting to see how the clan equipment is implemented ("We are not making the same mistake.") and the mBV numbers that would be assigned to them. This might negate any need for a 10v12 total mech match up - Simply use mBV and force the clan players to engage in lighter mechs tonnage wise but approximately equal mBV.

#26 Kin3ticX

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 10:40 PM

Do you think they will segregate IS from Clan completely or let it all mix together? Or it other words....get to put Clan tech on IS mechs?

#27 paxmortis

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 12:00 AM

When clan technology will introduced, it will be part of the MBV. Of course the value for clan technology would be high.

If you are interessed i can show you an example how i would handle it at the momet. Without knowing the exact values of weapons and components.

#28 Karl Streiger

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 12:25 AM

View Postpaxmortis, on 26 September 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

If you are interessed i can show you an example how i would handle it at the momet. Without knowing the exact values of weapons and components.

Yes of course, althoug the formula don't have to change - if there are no secondary characteristics (like jam and charge and etc.)

#29 paxmortis

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:21 AM

I will make it later. Because i had to checked the function crashingmail made, so that we can calculate Smurfy Links with the MBV.

Posted Image

Till now i make three test. Two hits exact and the stalker has a different of 2 points in MBV / 10. But this could be because i using only 2 numbers after the comma and round then. The PHP / MySQL using 16 numbers after the comman before round.

The weapon load of the customize stalker was 1060 MBV unmodified. So i think this is a rounding difference and the PHP is much more exact. The difference in the weapon loadout was around 1.8%.

Your are welcome to test it on you own.

#30 paxmortis

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:38 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 26 September 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Yes of course, althoug the formula don't have to change - if there are no secondary characteristics (like jam and charge and etc.)


As requested by Karl!

Here are the modfied rules, clan weapons and Equipment based on sarna, modified to match MWO.

And a clan mech no one knows, calculate with this rules. :)

Rules
Posted Image

Weapons and Equipment
Posted Image

Timberwolf Prime made after this sheet http://remlab.source.../MadCat-RS.html (BV 2.0 = 2,737)
Posted Image
The counterpart of the Timberwolf ist the Orion 1M with a MBV / 10 of 506.

Edit:
Additional here a Dire Wolf Widowmaker (BV 2.0 = 3,041)
Posted Image

Edited by paxmortis, 27 September 2013 - 07:29 AM.


#31 Kin3ticX

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:05 PM

wow! look at those clan mech BV estimates. Atlas builds only get to low 600's.....

I found a couple a small glitches. (maybe)

on a 3JJ bj-1;
BJ-1
comes out with 4JJ in the BV system. Only should be off by 2 MBV/10.

also,

My Atlas-k build is about 16 MBV/10 off from what I got in the spreadsheet but I was not able to find the reason...
AS7-K : 637 BV but i got 621 manually. Maybe it is my mistake or I am using old modifiers.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 28 September 2013 - 01:20 PM.


#32 Crashingmail

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:26 PM

Okay this AS7-K we should take a look at it. A gap off 16 is too large for some floating point mistakes.

Btw i've also run a check on the page and get an MBV/10 of 634

#33 Kin3ticX

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 12:07 PM

637 may have been a typo because i am now getting 634...if you get 634 in your spreadsheet(open office) then its a problem in my open office(where i am getting 621).

Edited by Kin3ticX, 29 September 2013 - 12:32 PM.


#34 Crashingmail

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:52 PM

No those 634 was on the web. pax and i will take a look into it today. If this is either something on the page or on his oo doc or if we both get same values.

#35 paxmortis

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:49 AM

I get in the spreadsheet 621 MBV / 10 too but when i make the following i get 632.

13 DHS in Engine with a value of 60 each plus 3 extern with 42 pts.

Edit:
This could also not the difference this both build bring 610 each

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fa743dad36de555

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...05dde2ab964a73b

The sheet for the same build only 595. I look deeper.

Edited by paxmortis, 30 September 2013 - 11:53 AM.


#36 Kin3ticX

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 01:17 PM

Try forcing max armor on that build, i got 633 on the spreadsheet, maybe its a armor glitch and its 633 because of rounding/floating point?

Edited by Kin3ticX, 30 September 2013 - 01:17 PM.


#37 Karl Streiger

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:14 PM

Sry for interrupting - i see that the formula still uses construction values (like slots or reduced weight as a factor)
I don't think that is necessary:
all components are allready measured by mass and slots. A clan ECM for example should only have more BV points if it is clearly better as the IS counterpart - same for CFF-ISFF-Standard Armor - should have the same value.

I can exept that a Clan XL engine - have the same rating as a IS Standard - because engine hits cause no trouble (although i really hope PGI break with the law - and don't allow half ClanMechs with XL engine to live)

#38 Crashingmail

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 12:24 AM

paxmortis and i found the bug today morning and now Kin3ticX your AS7-K shows the same value too on the page.
Thanks for finding this out.

#39 Morashtak

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:01 PM

Just another small item - The Locust max leg armor should be 16 not 20. Internal structure points in TRO 3025 is listed as 4. This would give a BTU armor value of 8 and a MWO armor value of 16.

Also, how did you arrive at a max engine rating of 170? Just curious.

#40 Crashingmail

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 09:42 PM

View PostMorashtak, on 02 October 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Also, how did you arrive at a max engine rating of 170? Just curious.

Look here http://mwomercs.com/phoenix and see the values for the Locust in the middle of the page.





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