1219 replies to this topic

[DirePhoenix]

Cimarb, on 04 October 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

If you create something similar to an existing trademark, and call it the same thing, that is infringing on the trademark. If I make my own McDonald's logo, and call it a McDonald's, do you really think the fact that I created it myself matters?...

They can get away with it how they did the Firebrand/Rifleman, though - that is how they would have to handle the Marauder too, more than likely.

The only thing that was ever in contention with the original mechs is the licensed art. Not the names, not the stats, not anything else. Just the images. Drop those images and there is no issue. The only place where there are mechs named the Marauder or Phoenix Hawk or Warhammer or etc. is in BattleTech. Not Robotech, not Macross, not Crusher Joe, not Dougram. so there is no way you'd be infringing on the mechs by using the same names.

The thing with the JagerMech is that it was, since TRO: 3025 (published in 1986), a direct replacement for the Rifleman in canon. The JagerMech has always been pretty much a Rifleman that's 5 tons heavier by design.

[Cuddlytron]

Was all in with Overlord right from the beginning. Same with Saber Reinforcement. Now the Flame Pattern is unlocked!

Feed the frenzy... plz.

[SgtMagor]

cant wait to use that flame pattern on my mechs

[Cimarb]

DirePhoenix, on 04 October 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

The only thing that was ever in contention with the original mechs is the licensed art. Not the names, not the stats, not anything else. Just the images. Drop those images and there is no issue. The only place where there are mechs named the Marauder or Phoenix Hawk or Warhammer or etc. is in BattleTech. Not Robotech, not Macross, not Crusher Joe, not Dougram. so there is no way you'd be infringing on the mechs by using the same names.

The thing with the JagerMech is that it was, since TRO: 3025 (published in 1986), a direct replacement for the Rifleman in canon. The JagerMech has always been pretty much a Rifleman that's 5 tons heavier by design.

Good points. I concede to you, good sir.

[IllCaesar]

Not buying the Saber reinforcement. If it was half the price, maybe, but they just don't interest me enough. If they threw in one month of premium time, I'd have to reconsider, two months, and I'd be all over it. I don't think the mechs are bad, but its just not worth my money. I can spend $30 waiting two months to get some mechs I don't particularly care for or see much promise in to come out, or I can wait three weeks and get XCOM:Enemy Within, an expansion to a game I've dumped 300 hours into. No contest, XCOM wins. Come on PGI, at least try to make it competitive.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 05 October 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[Xanquil]

I've already picked up the overlord and the saber package, If they put out another pack I would likely buy it. It would be an instant buy if it had the Crusader in it, I would even spend $50 on a pack if it had the Crusader, Marauder, and Warhammer in it.

[dangerzone]

Xanquil, on 05 October 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

I've already picked up the overlord and the saber package, If they put out another pack I would likely buy it. It would be an instant buy if it had the Crusader in it, I would even spend $50 on a pack if it had the Crusader, Marauder, and Warhammer in it.

Don't hold your breath. If I recall, all three of those are Macross 'mechs meaning they are owned by Harmony Gold. They will most likely NEVER EVER allow those 'mechs to be used in other games....at least not until 2021 whenn their contract expires hehehe.

Seriously though, Harmony Gold does not even do anything with those 'mechs. they haven't even made a 'mech game in years. They are just be uptight is all.

Sure FASA stole the designs, but that was like 30-40 years ago. HG needs to get their head out of there *** IMHO.

Still, a Whammy would be nice -drools-

Edited by dangerzone, 07 October 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[DirePhoenix]

dangerzone, on 07 October 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

Don't hold your breath. If I recall, all three of those are Macross 'mechs meaning they are owned by Harmony Gold. They will most likely NEVER EVER allow those 'mechs to be used in other games....at least not until 2021 whenn their contract expires hehehe.

Seriously though, Harmony Gold does not even do anything with those 'mechs. they haven't even made a 'mech game in years. They are just be uptight is all.

Sure FASA stole the designs, but that was like 30-40 years ago. HG needs to get their head out of there *** IMHO.

Still, a Whammy would be nice -drools-

1) FASA did not 'steal' those designs any more than HG did
2) HG doesn't own those images either...
3) HG licensed those images just like FASA did, but apparently in their license, they have the 'exclusive' rights to distribute products with those images in North America.

4) Everybody (especially the consumers) would be a lot better off if they could just let go of those old images and move on with new images created especially for the products they're supposed to be used in, instead of clinging on to images somebody else made for another product entirely.

Remember HG == Robotech. Robotech =/= Macross. The creators of Macross are the ones that own the IP for those images, not Harmony Gold. Robotech was a Frankenstein monster of three cartoons mashed into one (one of them Macross) with their audio completely redubbed to make an entirely different story in America. Imagine Kung Pow: Enter the Fist except instead of old Kung Fu movies being spliced together and redubbed, it's mecha anime, and without any humor... That's what Robotech is.

[dangerzone]

DirePhoenix, on 07 October 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

1) FASA did not 'steal' those designs any more than HG did
2) HG doesn't own those images either...
3) HG licensed those images just like FASA did, but apparently in their license, they have the 'exclusive' rights to distribute products with those images in North America.

4) Everybody (especially the consumers) would be a lot better off if they could just let go of those old images and move on with new images created especially for the products they're supposed to be used in, instead of clinging on to images somebody else made for another product entirely.

Remember HG == Robotech. Robotech =/= Macross. The creators of Macross are the ones that own the IP for those images, not Harmony Gold. Robotech was a Frankenstein monster of three cartoons mashed into one (one of them Macross) with their audio completely redubbed to make an entirely different story in America. Imagine Kung Pow: Enter the Fist except instead of old Kung Fu movies being spliced together and redubbed, it's mecha anime, and without any humor... That's what Robotech is.

Thank you for the information. Still, the point still stands, If PGI were to make a Whammy, Crusader or Maruader w/out HGs permission, PGI/IGP would get sued out the wazoo.

[DirePhoenix]

dangerzone, on 07 October 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Thank you for the information. Still, the point still stands, If PGI were to make a Whammy, Crusader or Maruader w/out HGs permission, PGI/IGP would get sued out the wazoo.

No, because the only thing HG can sue for is images. Don't use the contested images, and there is no conflict. Catalyst Game Labs has had "new", legal images for these 'mechs for over a decade now. (They need better artists to make better iterations of them, but there is no issue with using those images).

Note that these images are licensed to Catalyst Game Labs from Topps, Inc. However, I believe there would be much less of an issue with making new images that build off of ideas from 2003's Technical Readout: Project Phoenix than the original Macross images.

[Heffay]

dangerzone, on 07 October 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Thank you for the information. Still, the point still stands, If PGI were to make a Whammy, Crusader or Maruader w/out HGs permission, PGI/IGP would get sued out the wazoo.

This.

Of course, for a few million dollars in legal fees and tying up the process for years, they could *eventually* possibly win. Maybe. And if they lost...

[dangerzone]

DirePhoenix, on 07 October 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

No, because the only thing HG can sue for is images. Don't use the contested images, and there is no conflict. Catalyst Game Labs has had "new", legal images for these 'mechs for over a decade now. (They need better artists to make better iterations of them, but there is no issue with using those images).

Note that these images are licensed to Catalyst Game Labs from Topps, Inc. However, I believe there would be much less of an issue with making new images that build off of ideas from 2003's Technical Readout: Project Phoenix than the original Macross images.

After looking into it, I assume that is correct information. I am also assuming you are referring to Reseen 'mech designs. Obviously if HG did not sue, PGI would make remakes of these reseens mwo style. I'm sure PGI would love to make these reseens a reality, but the name of the 'mech is still the same. If I recall, the rights that HG has to these unseens is not only the image, but the name as well. So, if they use the same name it could be an issue. Again, not entirely sure about the last bit I just said, but hey, if PGI can get Catalyst/HG on good terms and allow usage of these reseens, I'd be one happy BT/MW fan.

[DirePhoenix]

dangerzone, on 07 October 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

After looking into it, I assume that is correct information. I am also assuming you are referring to Reseen 'mech designs. Obviously if HG did not sue, PGI would make remakes of these reseens mwo style. I'm sure PGI would love to make these reseens a reality, but the name of the 'mech is still the same. If I recall, the rights that HG has to these unseens is not only the image, but the name as well. So, if they use the same name it could be an issue. Again, not entirely sure about the last bit I just said, but hey, if PGI can get Catalyst/HG on good terms and allow usage of these reseens, I'd be one happy BT/MW fan.

HG can't sue for the names. The licensed image used for the Marauder? HG does not call that a Marauder in their Robotech cartoon, they call it a Glaug Officer's Battlepod. Warhammer = Excalibur. Archer = Gladiator. etc, etc, etc.

The names are ok. The stats are ok. The text descriptions are ok. The images are the only thing in contention. Don't use those images and there is no issue.

[Cimarb]

DirePhoenix, on 07 October 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

HG can't sue for the names. The licensed image used for the Marauder? HG does not call that a Marauder in their Robotech cartoon, they call it a Glaug Officer's Battlepod. Warhammer = Excalibur. Archer = Gladiator. etc, etc, etc.

The names are ok. The stats are ok. The text descriptions are ok. The images are the only thing in contention. Don't use those images and there is no issue.

You still have the delema of how close to the original images you get. If it is close enough where HG can sue, they will. If it is far enough away from that image that HG will not sue, will it even look like the 'mech we want? If it doesn't, then what is the point? Just make a hero catapult/stalker and call it a marauder, or even closer would be cataphract = warhammer. I wouldn't be happy with either of those, but they are quite similar.

Regardless, hopefully HG gets a life and stops being sue-happy so we can enjoy these classic designs again.

[Thanatos676]

Cimarb, on 07 October 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

You still have the delema of how close to the original images you get. If it is close enough where HG can sue, they will. If it is far enough away from that image that HG will not sue, will it even look like the 'mech we want? If it doesn't, then what is the point? Just make a hero catapult/stalker and call it a marauder, or even closer would be cataphract = warhammer. I wouldn't be happy with either of those, but they are quite similar.

Regardless, hopefully HG gets a life and stops being sue-happy so we can enjoy these classic designs again.

There are many companies who "patent troll" like HG does. They should all be shut down imo. I would LOVE to see the unseens but i am not holding my breath for it.

[PoLaR]

Why don't we all just spam Harmony Gold until they give In?!

*Evil laugh.....*

[Hexenhammer]

Palladium Games is the current lessee/rights holder in the US and have been for decades.

Past that I'm looking forward to these mechs. Warhammer, Marauder, Crusader, Archer, Dervish, Stinger, Wasp, Phoenix Hawk, Zeus, Cyclops and others.And the underdog of the ages! the UrbanMech!

Edited by Hexenhammer, 07 October 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[DirePhoenix]

Cimarb, on 07 October 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

You still have the delema of how close to the original images you get. If it is close enough where HG can sue, they will. If it is far enough away from that image that HG will not sue, will it even look like the 'mech we want? If it doesn't, then what is the point? Just make a hero catapult/stalker and call it a marauder, or even closer would be cataphract = warhammer. I wouldn't be happy with either of those, but they are quite similar.

Regardless, hopefully HG gets a life and stops being sue-happy so we can enjoy these classic designs again.

This has been a Marauder for the past 10 years:



Fugly, right? Well, here's FD's take on that same design:



MUCH better. Now, IIRC this is imagery that may have appeared in a publication, so Topps, Inc. owns this image (just like they own all Battletech print media images*) and Topps doesn't license to PGI, so technically they can't use this exact design. However, we've already seen FD's takes on all the other 'mechs in MWO, and I'm more than confident he can come up with something unique and awesome and doesn't look like the old licensed artwork.



*because Topps owns all print media Battletech imagery is also IMO why we can't have physical MWO merchandise that shows 'mechs, and things like those MWO shirts with the Phoenix BattleMaster can only be given away, not sold by PGI. However, Catalyst Game Labs is licensing their art from Topps, not from PGI, so that also means that they can't produce items using MWO art. FD is in kind of a unique situation because he is an artist that has produced works for both MWO and the sourcebooks (Topps), but he can't use his sourcebook art in MWO and can't use his MWO art in the sourcebooks. The two have to be separate.

[Cimarb]

DirePhoenix, on 07 October 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

MUCH better. Now, IIRC this is imagery that may have appeared in a publication, so Topps, Inc. owns this image (just like they own all Battletech print media images*) and Topps doesn't license to PGI, so technically they can't use this exact design. However, we've already seen FD's takes on all the other 'mechs in MWO, and I'm more than confident he can come up with something unique and awesome and doesn't look like the old licensed artwork.

I agree that looks very nice, but to me, that is NOT a Marauder. A Marauder has the huge autocannon on top of the round, stalker-like torso, like a tank would. That image looks more like a cataphract with a protruding cockpit to me. Not knocking his art, nor your point, but what I am getting at is that the more you diverge from the look of the original, the less it matters what you call it.

[DirePhoenix]

Cimarb, on 07 October 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

I agree that looks very nice, but to me, that is NOT a Marauder. A Marauder has the huge autocannon on top of the round, stalker-like torso, like a tank would. That image looks more like a cataphract with a protruding cockpit to me. Not knocking his art, nor your point, but what I am getting at is that the more you diverge from the look of the original, the less it matters what you call it.

And my point is that having a visible representation of some of the most common mechs that have played a large role in the history of Battletech is better than having no representation at all and pretending they don't exist.

EDIT: Also to me, the Cataphract is what happens when Cappellans try to build a Marauder but can't figure out where the "spare parts" go, so I guess that fits.

Edited by DirePhoenix, 07 October 2013 - 03:45 PM.