13 replies to this topic

[M0rpHeu5]

Hello Developers and fellow players
As you devs stated That you want to make the game like battletech where the aplha strike is a rare one time thing, imstead of adding delays and staff that makes weapons unlikely to be used do this:

1st you can lower the time that the ghost heat applies to 100ms, after all any deference of time will break the pinpoint alpha

Each and every weapon will be connected and will have a tier value that will determine with how many weapons will be able to fired penalty free
Flamer -> 0 poinys
(pulse)SLaser -> 0 points
(pulse)MLaser -> 6 points
(Pulse)(ER)LLaser -> 10 points
(ER)PPC -> 15points
Machine Gun -> 0 points
AC2 -> 3 point
(U)AC5 ->9 points
AC10/LB10XAC ->18 points
AC20 ->30 points
Gauss rifle ->30 points
(Steak)SRM ->1.5 points per missile
LRM -> 1 point per missile


Mechs according to tonnage will be able to fire deferent tier of alpha strikes heat penalty free
20-25tones -> Max Alpha 21 points
30-35tones -> Max Alpha 24 points
40-45tines -> Max Alpha 27 points
50-55tones -> Max Alpha 30 points
60-65tones -> Max Alpha 33 points
70-75tones -> Max Alpha 36 points
80-85tones -> Max Alpha 39 points
90-95tones -> Max Alpha 42 points
100tones -> Max Alpha 45 points

For every extra weapon point a mech shoots it will be heated by 1 more heat point and there the aplha problem is gone forever

For example the gausscat that shoots 2xGauss rifles(60 points) which is 27 points above it's potential will get 27 extra heat so instead of 2heat it will get 29 heat


Of course there should be ingame tutorials that explains this to the new player

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 02 September 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[M0rpHeu5]

Even this fully mastered 2 ppcs/gauss victor which is as cool as it gets will shut down after the 3rd alpha

[Papar]

This idea seems to have some potential and may actally improve the current implementation of ghost heat since the current system is easily exploitable ( 2ppc+gauss). I like the fact that this will differentiate light mechs from heavy mechs as far as ghost heat is concerned because having the lights able to fire the same amount of weapons at the same time as the assaults doesn't make a lot of sense. However, I fear that this may make mediums even weaker compared to assaults and they are more in need of a buff than a nerf. I am not sure about the decrease of the time required to wait to not have a heat penalty. 100ms seems a way too low amount of time to me and I believe that it should stay at 500ms as I see no real reason for this change.
I also fear that this will make trial mechs from utter useless to completely unplayable and new players will have nothing anywhere near decent to use.

[M0rpHeu5]

Papar, on 29 August 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

However, I fear that this may make mediums even weaker compared to assaults and they are more in need of a buff than a nerf.

Every mech will be evenly weakened using this systems since the smaller mechs will have a lower alpha strike power but they also carry less weapons to begin with.
Also it's the smaller mechs that benefit more by carring SMall lasers and machine guns that won't affect the heat penalty so they are actualy beeing buffed compaired to larger mechs

Papar, on 29 August 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I am not sure about the decrease of the time required to wait to not have a heat penalty. 100ms seems a way too low amount of time to me and I believe that it should stay at 500ms as I see no real reason for this change.

Maybe 100ms is a bit low but at the same time 500ms is too high, so high that chainfiring ac2s gives you ghost heat

Papar, on 29 August 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I also fear that this will make trial mechs from utter useless to completely unplayable and new players will have nothing anywhere near decent to use.

This is true for some trial mechs but they can just exlude the trials from this or use only the champion and hero mechs as trials but even that's not the case what if the trial mechs get weaker, will anyone use them for more than 25 matchies?

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 30 August 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Sennin]

This has merit over the current system. I wouldn't mind physically testing this and providing feedback.

[Asmosis]

Since they have stated their intention is simply to "limit high alpha builds" which really from their comments/inclusion of high DPS weapons like lasers and ac2's means its really "limit high damage builds" this makes a lot of sense. That way you dont have to worry so much when new weapons get released and you dont have people hopping to the "next best thing" like gauss -> ac10 etc.

Should probably have 3 general groups.
ssrms+lrms (and any future long range homing stuff)
burst damage (ballistics, PPC's, srms)
DOTs (lasers, machine guns etc)

having said that, PGI was right (as far as heat scale goes) to put larger penalties on the heavy weapons like ac20/gauss since lets face it, an equal penalty to other weapons would be ignored on relatively low heat weapons like these. A pair of gauss rifles generating 24 heat is still superior to someone firing 3 er ppc's etc.

the 500ms thing is fine though (once they fix the ac2 heat bug), it needs to be significant enough that your target could have moved from a stationary position enough that they can avoid a 2nd hit to the same location. with HSR that needs to be at least 100-200ms more than the average ping which is around 200ms or so.

Edited by Asmosis, 30 August 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Neat, a different approach to dealing with Alpha's.

It's similar to other ideas I've read about around here, hope this or something similar gets considered as an alternative, or as an addition to heat scale penalties.

[M0rpHeu5]

Praetor Shepard, on 30 August 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

It's similar to other ideas I've read about around here, hope this or something similar gets considered as an alternative, or as an addition to heat scale penalties.

I hope some something else get's considered because if they do what they are planning they'll make he gauss useless and the cheese uselrs will just replace the gauss with an ac20.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

M0rpHeu5, on 31 August 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

I hope some something else get's considered because if they do what they are planning they'll make he gauss useless and the cheese uselrs will just replace the gauss with an ac20.

indeed.

The process is too long in adjusting to what players optimize. I simply hope for more vital info; in the meantime.

[Wolf Ender]

why do we take it as a given that heat scale is here to stay?
it's still possible that it could be removed in favor of something more balanced and easier to understand. they ought to.

Roughneck, another guy in my clan, said it best: (IIRC) "....if a player can't figure out everything he needs to know about building a mech by reading the descriptions in the mechlab, then that's a failure of the devs"

basically he was saying that all these phantom penalties like ghost heat, charge time for gauss, heat scale for boating, and everything else that isn't EVIDENT at the time that you are putting your mech together, ends up being confusing for the new people to understand, because they don't read the forums and the dev blogs to know all of the extra little nerfs and buffs the devs have slipped in everywhere.

it's confusing, it's poorly implemented, it's cumbersome, and it's fixable.

[M0rpHeu5]

Wolf Ender, on 31 August 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

why do we take it as a given that heat scale is here to stay?
it's still possible that it could be removed in favor of something more balanced and easier to understand. they ought to.

I don't think it will be removed, Paul seems very fond of it.

Wolf Ender, on 31 August 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Roughneck, another guy in my clan, said it best: (IIRC) "....if a player can't figure out everything he needs to know about building a mech by reading the descriptions in the mechlab, then that's a failure of the devs"

basically he was saying that all these phantom penalties like ghost heat, charge time for gauss, heat scale for boating, and everything else that isn't EVIDENT at the time that you are putting your mech together, ends up being confusing for the new people to understand, because they don't read the forums and the dev blogs to know all of the extra little nerfs and buffs the devs have slipped in everywhere.

it's confusing, it's poorly implemented, it's cumbersome, and it's fixable.

I totaly agree, every system is used in a game sould be properly explaned in game and not on some forums.
If you are implying that what i am suggesting cannot be explaind ingame properly i'll have to disagree with you. All is needed is some minor changies on the interface.
A mech on their list of hardpoints and abilitys can desplay the number of it's hight alpha and every weapon on it's description can have it's alpha value

[Krofinn]

Here I was, coming to the forums to post a better ghost heat system, and you've already posted a very similar system.

In fact, I think your system is better.

But... make the numbers bigger. Rather than 7 points for a 20-25 tonner, make it 35. Instead of 5 points for an ER PPC, 25. This would allow smaller scale tweaking, as well as improve the feel of the curve - instead of each point giving 3 heat, every 2 points could give 1 heat (Or 1 for 1, testing would be required)

[Papar]

Krofinn, on 01 September 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Here I was, coming to the forums to post a better ghost heat system, and you've already posted a very similar system.

In fact, I think your system is better.

But... make the numbers bigger. Rather than 7 points for a 20-25 tonner, make it 35. Instead of 5 points for an ER PPC, 25. This would allow smaller scale tweaking, as well as improve the feel of the curve - instead of each point giving 3 heat, every 2 points could give 1 heat (Or 1 for 1, testing would be required)

Indeed. I believe this would further improve it but the ideal numbers cannot be figured out without testing. It would be nice if PGI actually considered some of the community's ideas and put the ones with the most potential in the Public Test Server but I do not see this happening. At least not before Launch.

[M0rpHeu5]

Krofinn, on 01 September 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Here I was, coming to the forums to post a better ghost heat system, and you've already posted a very similar system.

In fact, I think your system is better.

But... make the numbers bigger. Rather than 7 points for a 20-25 tonner, make it 35. Instead of 5 points for an ER PPC, 25. This would allow smaller scale tweaking, as well as improve the feel of the curve - instead of each point giving 3 heat, every 2 points could give 1 heat (Or 1 for 1, testing would be required)

Thanks
I agree with your suggestion, I multiplied everything by 3 so there is plenty of room from improuvment and also now for every 1 weapon point the heat gose up by one which feels better

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 03 September 2013 - 04:56 AM.