67 replies to this topic

[Schrottfrosch]

Another solution to the massive usage of huge alpha builds could be to change how huge damage weapons work:

Atm AC/20, PPCs and Gaussrifles are much to close to the TT rules imo. Reading the novels especially ACs are not really firing a single shell, but most of the time they fire a burst of shells.

If you read up on AC/20s on sarna it says:

"The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.
Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output."

source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/AC/20

PPC:

"...PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy...."

source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC

Only the Gaussrifle really fires single Canonballs:

"...the Gauss Rifle utilizes a series of electromagnets to propel slugs of ferrous nickel-iron alloy at extremely high velocities..."

source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle


So my solution would be to recreate ACs to fire bursts instead of single bullets, this would spread the damage a bit, similar to lasers that need to be aimed on target for their entire duration to do a good amount of damage. Same modification could be done to PPCs, so that they also apply their full damage on a single hitlocation only if you manage to stay on target (maybe the PPC should applay its damage a bit faster than the lasers). Regarding the Gaussrifle - half the damage and double its RoF.

This way we can have more Dakka, while adding skill to the game - as keeping your crosshair on target is definately more dificult, if you need to do it for a longer period of time - and we add fun to the game by getting a greater time to kill which means, people can stay in a game for longer, as they are not being Alpha'd to death in a single volley anymore. This would be much more enjoyable, especially as getting into a game and getting into contact with the enemy already takes quite a lot of time and being alpha'd to death at the first glimpse of the enemy can be rather frustrating (PS2 has a very quick TTK but you respawn within 10 seconds, so no big deal).

PS: I know, I put this into another thread, also - but I think an individual post might get more attention - also added a poll

Now I updated this suggestion with a picture:




This would also add much more variety! I kinda find it boring, that there are these classes of AC/20, AC/10, AC/5 and AC/2, but it is understandable form the point of making a manageable game, without going through the roof with all the different weaopons, especially for a tabletop game - when you look at Warhammer 40k for example, especially for beginners the huge amount of rules regarding all the different weapons is painful, and playing takes way too long, because people have to look up the rules all the time. Keeping it simple is good for a tabletop game.

Computers though can easily cope with huge amounts of different rules - so that we actually can include all the different manufacturers and the diversity of weaponry that there actually exists in the universe of 'Mechwarrior!

This adds a lot of depth to the gameplay and gets it closer to an RPG. With adding manufacturers you could also add stuff like availability - as manufacturers sometimes only produce for certain empires. This would add to the complexity of the upcomming community warfare and would have quite an impact on the choice, which empire to fight for..

Adding pictures of hitpattern/hit groups for the chemjet:

Picture one - difference between only upper actuator and upper + lower actuator:


Dual Chemjet Hitpattern/Hitgroup on Jaegermech:


These are just rough proposals on how to work out recoil - to work against the effect of recoil you need to move the reticule with the mouse into the opposite direction of course - this might need practice regarding the availability of upper/lower arm actuators, type of mech (bigger mechs might have stronger actuators) and type of weapon (bigger damage per shell = more recoil).

The range might be 100m and these patterns only happen without any readjusting with the mouse.

Edited by Schrottfrosch, 30 June 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[El Bandito]

I voted yes, because Autocannons in MW universe are fired in bursts like machineguns, not a single shell like some medieval cannon.

I also agree with your PPC change.

However, we still need to address pin point long distance convergence if you want more Battletech feel.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2013 - 04:34 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

This is a very tricky situation for me here. And I don't want to rock the boat exactly, because I love where you're coming from with this post OP. I really do.

I love the feel the novels present to the combat in the battletech universe.

The thing I have to argue here is, ease of caculations in the game. First off I think that PPC's and AC's work the way they do, because despite the way they're presented in the fluff, from the original gameplay mechanics, those weapons damage 1 location... MW4 got away with this feel by having the attack sprite look more beefy [ac's looking like a trail of shells for instance, instead of a singe shot] But the way MWO works, that wouldn't be a good solution.

There needs to be bigger emphsis on smaller weapon groupings and advantages to chain firing. That would be the biggest advantage to fixing this high yield alpha situation. Penalty's on firing weapons in groups of more than 2 at a time, unless those weapons are chain fired. Stacking heat penalty's. Things like that.

There's a TON of things that still need to be addressed. Single Heatsinks still need a complete revamp, or dubs need to be brought more in line with them. Same with total heat capicity. Hard limits for heat penalty's. CoF or Convergence needs to be added/make a return.

I wish I could vote in this poll OP, but I can't justify actually doing so when I, can't really agree for once either way since my reasoning doesn't support either.

[Dubious]

I have to say I disagree. First off, I don't get this whole "one shotting" alpha thing. I have been one shotted once, by a 6ppc stalker while piloting a spider, and I have played a shitload of this game. I was standing still at the time which is pretty much the only time you can really be one shotted; standing still in a very light mech. Or being shot in the back. Either way, it was a tactical error that caused your death.

Further, these weapons already have a big negative in the they are somewhat difficult to aim especially against fast moving targets. As it is now, if you miss you get no damage, where in your suggestions it would be a lot easier to score hits on fast movers with these weapons, and ultimately make lights even more relatively weak.

This is personal opinion, but I really like the feel of the one-big shot autocannon and PPC. These have played like this in MW2, 3, and 4, MWLL, and now MWO. It is certainly not how these weapons are described in the books, but it "feels" right when you have been playing these games for close to 20 years.

[Kingdok]

Dubious, on 18 June 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

I have to say I disagree. First off, I don't get this whole "one shotting" alpha thing. I have been one shotted once, by a 6ppc stalker while piloting a spider, and I have played a shitload of this game. I was standing still at the time which is pretty much the only time you can really be one shotted; standing still in a very light mech. Or being shot in the back. Either way, it was a tactical error that caused your death.

Further, these weapons already have a big negative in the they are somewhat difficult to aim especially against fast moving targets. As it is now, if you miss you get no damage, where in your suggestions it would be a lot easier to score hits on fast movers with these weapons, and ultimately make lights even more relatively weak.

This is personal opinion, but I really like the feel of the one-big shot autocannon and PPC. These have played like this in MW2, 3, and 4, MWLL, and now MWO. It is certainly not how these weapons are described in the books, but it "feels" right when you have been playing these games for close to 20 years.

This...

Perhaps we can have both? Rotary Autocannons come into the picture somewhere here (can't remember exactly when in the timeline). I never played with those things in TT, since I mostly played before the advanced tech rules came out. But the RAC could be introduced as a streaming ballistic weapon, while the standard AC remains a single projectile.

That would satisfy a lot of folks, I think.

[DocBach]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

However, we still need to address pin point long distance convergence if you want more Battletech feel.

I agree with this statement - the problem isn't that the AC/20 or PPC are too powerful; they are suppose to be kings of their respective weapon classes. The problem is you can now shoot multiples of them into the same hole over and over.

[Darius Deadeye]

Agreed. It is obvious to anyone that tabletop does not translate well to first person shooters.

Game should be based off the lore with many aspects directly translated, but dmg and rof is not it.

I'll support anything that could potentially prolong the matches a little. This would help.

[Schrottfrosch]

The PPC should also get a duration like Lasers already have. It should be more like the Ghostbusters Dematerializer (proton-Stream):



It would also be extremely cool to add some unpredictability to this very powerful and special weapon. While I am against randomizers on most other weapons, the PPC or "Man-made Lightning" should be an exception to this rule. i would suggest a duration of 3 seconds, with every 0,5 seconds adding damage to the target, but only the first second should deliver its damage to where the PPC-gun is aimed it - then the stream should go wild! Just like real lightnings. Also side effects like triggering lightnings coming from the ground to connect with the main stram would look awesome - like in this video of upside down lightnings:



They are triggered by cloud to cloud lightnings, while the lightning goes from one cloud to another just similar to a lightning that goes from a PPC to connect to another 'Mech.

[Otto Cannon]

I feel as though I should disapprove of this and hate the idea. But more choices in the mechlab is strangely alluring and I can't actually think of a real reason why it would be so bad. It wouldn't solve the pinpoint issue as completely as some other convergence fixes but it would help a lot if both autocannons and PPCs did spread damage. Nicely presented idea with an excellent mechlab screenshot too.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

No.
PPC that does damage over time - we already have that, they are called lasers. Why would anyone use those modified PPCs, when large laser would do slightly less damage, maybe in slightly longer time, but also with significantly less heat?
As for autocannons - it might be good to ADD different types of them that, for example, fire 5 projectiles in quick succesion, each doing 2 dmg = 10 damage pre trigger pull (so we have different AC10). But ADD, not replace what we have with them.

[Schrottfrosch]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 30 June 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

No.
PPC that does damage over time - we already have that, they are called lasers. Why would anyone use those modified PPCs, when large laser would do slightly less damage, maybe in slightly longer time, but also with significantly less heat?
As for autocannons - it might be good to ADD different types of them that, for example, fire 5 projectiles in quick succesion, each doing 2 dmg = 10 damage pre trigger pull (so we have different AC10). But ADD, not replace what we have with them.

I was told I would "laserfy" all weapons already. And while this is kinda correct an AC would still be quite different, as it would have recoil, not like lasers, which are recoil free - as the PPC, but if you add a bit of erratic behaviour (please go and watch some youtube videos about lightnings - for example), it would not only make the weapon more spectacular, but would add a bit of a downside to more damage.

And regarding "Why would anyone use those modified PPCs, when large laser would do slightly less damage, maybe in slightly longer time, but also with significantly less heat?" - Just fiddle with the numbers...

The AC/20 as it is in the game right now actually never existed like that in the 'Mechwarrior universe - it is a constructed simplification to have a class of weapons which can then be simulated by rolling dices more easily! A simplification we do not need for this game, as the computer can easily do all the math to nicely simulate a Chemjet or Crusher SH Cannon...

Edited by Schrottfrosch, 30 June 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

It's entirely possible to have canonical multi-round ACs without turning them into lasers in practice. Currently a laser spreads damage evenly over a beam duration, during which it's manually kept on target. Give ACs a (very) short burstfire mechanism with a minor degree of recoil. Have the recoil pattern predictable (and thus mitigatable with skill) but dependant on weapon location. Therefore if, say, arm-mounted ACs track upwards and outwards it forces a degree of damage spread away from the initial aim point, making it increasingly difficult to land all the rounds on a single compartment with number of hardpoint locations utilised (note this wouldn't limit weapons in the same location).

PPCs would need something else to stop them being lasers, someone posted a suggestion a while ago of having five damage in the bolt and five in the 'tail' to spread damage on moving/defensive twisting targets while maintaining full lethality on in-line hits, which I quite like.

As for the Gauss? Honestly think it's fine as is. They're big, explode if you sneeze on them and the ammo capacity is pathetic. Things like the Annihilator may be a problem when they arrive, but that's (hopefully) a ways off. Oh, and give it it's minimum range. Notabrawlingweapon ™.

[Adridos]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

I voted yes, because Autocannons in MW universe are fired in bursts like machineguns, not a single shell like some medieval cannon.

That actually depends on the manufacturer.

[General Taskeen]

These idea's have come up before OP. I have added your idea to a list of idea's that would be helpful to test and see on the upcoming test server, as it would require overhauls of existing mechanics more than just simple tweaks per patch.

List Of Ideas For The Upcoming Test Server

[Schrottfrosch]

Adridos, on 01 July 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

That actually depends on the manufacturer.

Yep - it is mentioned, that there are single shot ACs - it looks like this is a special mode of fire though, which enables you to fire each shot of a cassette in single fire mode. At least for the idea of going away from huge damage shots, that means huge damage in a single hitlocation with 1 mouseclick I would rather like this interpretation

Also why would they be called ACs? I mean Autocannon suggests more like a machinegun-like behaviour - I know, that actually the auto loading mechanism is enough to call something automatic. And automatic weapons can be fired in single shot mode, even with only the full auto mode available (I actually fired the MG3 in single shots - and it comes with full auto option only - requires some practice and a sensitive trigger finger).

General Taskeen, on 01 July 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

These idea's have come up before OP. I have added your idea to a list of idea's that would be helpful to test and see on the upcoming test server, as it would require overhauls of existing mechanics more than just simple tweaks per patch.

List Of Ideas For The Upcoming Test Server

thx dude - appreciated!

[Adridos]

Schrottfrosch, on 01 July 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Also why would they be called ACs? I mean Autocannon suggests more like a machinegun-like behaviour - I know, that actually the auto loading mechanism is enough to call something automatic.

That's the reason right there.

For instance, Russian tanks currently all use autoloaders and thus, their guns are classified as autocannons by the millitary.

[Max Liao]

Adridos is correct. In the BT universe autocannons can fire one round or many rounds depending on manufacturer and fluff. Instead of getting hung up on the term autocannon think of it as "Ballistic slug throwing weapon that does X points of damage."

DocBach had it right when he said: "I agree with this statement - the problem isn't that the AC/20 or PPC are too powerful; they are suppose to be kings of their respective weapon classes. The problem is you can now shoot multiples of them into the same hole over and over."

[Hugh Fairgrove]

I'm pretty sure that PGI has stated that they are looking at adding different manufactures to the weapons further down the road. Each having their own specific quirks like certain manufacturers being able to create lasers that are different colors other then blue, red, and green (its canon, if you dont believe me look it up). I'm sure that if this is ever implimented you will end up seeing multishell autocannons becoming more common.

I'm also fairly certain this will probably end up being effected by your CW allegiance. ie. depending on your faction or loyalty to a faction you will gain discounts to certain manufacturers located in your faction controlled territory or pay more for others that aren't.

Though I don't think this would solve the problem of heavy mechs sporting dual ac20s that just wreck anything thats under 80 tons.

[Spirit of the Wolf]

Schrottfrosch, on 18 June 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Okay, I'll admit it:
You sold me as soon as I saw the picture. It's very well done.

General Taskeen, on 01 July 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

These idea's have come up before OP. I have added your idea to a list of idea's that would be helpful to test and see on the upcoming test server, as it would require overhauls of existing mechanics more than just simple tweaks per patch.

List Of Ideas For The Upcoming Test Server

Someone beat me to recommending it for the test server first. (And I'd GLADLY test this.)

[Featherwood]

I like the idea very much, it actually reflects my own thoughts on the topic - keep as close to MW3 as possible without downgrades. Too bad that won't happen, at least in nearest half a year. PGI is too busy following their own schedule and Paul is too incompetent to use someone's ideas when lacking his own, IMO. It's not rude to conclude it, I suppose, keeping in mind how many balance mistakes MWO had and still has.