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Gamefront: A Cautionary Tale


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#441 Daekar

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostShumabot, on 11 October 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:


Yes, it's a good, bad looking, unstable, unbalanced, shallow, repetitive, mess! The best kind of mess.


I think some of that is subjective... but I have to say, "bad looking"...? Really? What, do you usually use a server room for your renders and you're temporarily stuck with 4-way SLI? I have a 460 GTX and a 3.5GHz Phenom II X4, and running on medium settings I think the game looks great and runs smoothly. I put it on ultra-high to see what it looks like, and it's creepy good, my machine just can't handle it.

Maybe I'm behind on the graphics curve, but of all the things to complain about, the art and graphics are definitely not one I would put on the list.

#442 MechFrog1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

Quote

This is at the heart of why "core gamers" got so upset when PGI said they were trying focus on getting new players into the game. Getting your product to as many people as possible is essential in any business model, even more so with a F2P format: It's a numbers game, you see. Since only a percentage of your audience actually pays, you need to reach many more players. This is a no-brainer that no one should have a problem with. But with MWO, there is this loud and surly faction of the community that totally raged-out.

Actually, the reason why the core gamers got so upset is because the changes that PGI claimed were a part of a focus on improving the new player experience were actually detrimental to the game play experience AND not very helpful for new players. Had it been a genuine attempt at a tutorial system, some rudimentary AI in tutorial missions, no one would have complained.

"Stop trying to get new players" != "Stop doing destructive things in an attempt to get new players."

Notice the difference?

If you were driving your sick grandmother to the hospital and I yell at you not to drive through the daycare center playground, I'm not telling you that I don't want you to get your grandmother to the hospital.



We aren't upset with the need to add new players, since that is a given. We're upset because the attempts to add new gamers are causing damage to the game and actually failing at the intended goal. Chasing the white rabbit of masses of new players just over the horizon without any thought to how your attempt to reach them will change your game is foolish.

You can blame the community for what is happening, but we didn't force the reviewers to point out the same flaws that we've been talking about for more than a year now. For a long time, defenders of everything and anything said that time would tell, and that they would be proven right at release. We just needed to shut up and stop whining.

Now it's time to eat some crow and admit that there are some very serious problems with the game that need to be addressed immediately. No amount of pretending and wishful thinking is going to undo the bad reviews, or all the press concerning the missteps with community management. The only thing that will even begin to repair the damage is to sit down and have an honest no-******** discussion about what brought us to this point, and how to make sure that no more damage is done.

I don't want the game to fail. I don't hate PGI or anyone on the team. I think they're doing their best to make the game as fun and successful as possible. However, no one is perfect and mistakes can be made. Identifying those mistakes (as well as celebrating the successes) is an important part of being a rational adult and part of a successful team.

Jamming your fingers in your ears and screaming that there's no problems and that everything would be wonderful if only it weren't for the people talking about the problems is delusional and destructive to the game.

We identified what needs to be fixed. The 'pro' reviewers identified what needs to be fixed. It's time for you to admit what needs to be fixed. Not in six months, not in three months, but as soon as possible. Even if it means shelving personal pet projects like 3PV and distractions like ghost heat.

Edited by mint frog, 12 October 2013 - 08:58 AM.


#443 Sandpit

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:22 AM

^^^^^ this

#444 Heffay

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:38 AM

View Postmint frog, on 12 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Even if it means shelving personal pet projects like 3PV and distractions like ghost heat.


Ghost heat and 3PV are in. They aren't spending time developing it any further, so removing it wouldn't do any good. It's not like it's taking development cycles anymore.

In fact, quite the opposite. Getting rid of ghost heat means they have to throw tons of resources at coming up with a new solution, developing it, testing it, etc. That would be a huge distraction. Heck, even getting rid of 3PV would involve running it through the development cycle. They should be focusing their efforts on getting UI 2.0 and CW going, not rolling back things that aren't hurting the game.

#445 Chronojam

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:02 PM

View Postmint frog, on 12 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Actually, the reason why the core gamers got so upset is because the changes that PGI claimed were a part of a focus on improving the new player experience were actually detrimental to the game play experience AND not very helpful for new players. Had it been a genuine attempt at a tutorial system, some rudimentary AI in tutorial missions, no one would have complained.

While the whole thing is worth reading and remembering, this part is really important!

Third person was added and the forums were in an uproar as this is a bit of a sacred cow being slaughtered after repeated assurances it was a core pillar. New players find themselves without teammate status or the radar display, both of which are vital to team-play and players without voice communication. It sure doesn't help new players learn to operate independent arm vs torso motion, and on most chassis, the legs aren't even visible (which was the entire point of the exercise, we were told).

At the same time, veteran players find themselves able to exploit the new camera for superior scouting, extra-easy ridgesniping at a time when the long-range high-alpha metagame's going strong, and clueless new players are left with a flashing light above their heads and no idea about turning it off.

We've all see the ridiculous aftershocks of Ghost Heat. That was supposed to curb "pro builds" like the gimmick 6PPC Stalker (that was never, ever a competitive mech and has severe downsides in mobility, heat management, target tracking and engagement profile). It also ended up killing twin AC/20 builds or SRM-favoring loadouts that were direct brawling competition for the long-range high-alpha metagame, and ER Large Laser builds designed to counteract jumpsnipers and ridgesnipers were similarly nerfed hard. Just look at all the problems the AC/2 still has because of ghost heat.

PGI's using a hatchet where they should be using a scalpel. Just because it makes a cut, you shouldn't declare it's "working as intended" as you miss design intent and create enormous problems elsewhere by mauling important organs. You can't tell me Ghost Heat was supposed to prevent the AC/2 from being chainfired, or that SRM2s had a "boating" problem that needed to be addressed. This is without even getting into firing fewer LRMs to gain more heat, or the canon builds impacted.

Seriously, ghost heat simply made 2PPC1Gauss more attractive in the end while putting a nail in the brawling coffin. The new gauss charge-up makes it harder to use gauss rifles to attack jumpsnipers, which already was made harder when large lasers were slapped with ghost heat.

Remember the forcible 8-man queue split designed to help segregate new/casual players away from experienced groups? Instead of a better matchmaker. We all know how that turned out, as the queue began failing to find a match at least a good third of a the time (PGI even admitted to such crazy failure rates). It was a real killer for the competitive players, but it hurt new players' experience too.

New players ended up being used as chaff to round out teams of superior skill, resulting in matches that sure seemed like 6v8 or 5v8 due to poor balancing: good players could be matched with completely clueless new players, against a well-rounded opposition that easily dispatched the lost newbies before overwhelming the competent players on a team with superior numbers. Not fun for the good players who died before they could learn how to play better, not fun for experienced players who ended up effectively outnumbered, not really the challenge the well-rounded team expected!

#446 Chronojam

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:05 PM

And what did happen to those integrated voice comms that were so hyped up but then removed? That surely would have been a huge help to new players and un-teamed folks alike. Unceremoniously dropped.

#447 MechFrog1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:26 PM

View PostHeffay, on 12 October 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

[/size]

Ghost heat and 3PV are in. They aren't spending time developing it any further, so removing it wouldn't do any good. It's not like it's taking development cycles anymore.
I will bet you 30million c-bills that they are still working on 3PV.

Quote

Heck, even getting rid of 3PV would involve running it through the development cycle. They should be focusing their efforts on getting UI 2.0 and CW going, not rolling back things that aren't hurting the game.

Just like they had to run it through the development cycle to remove it for organized 12 mans at the launch party?

Do you ever think about anything you write or is it all just stream of consciousness lies that pop into your head at that moment?

Edited by mint frog, 12 October 2013 - 04:35 PM.


#448 Heffay

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:52 PM

View Postmint frog, on 12 October 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Just like they had to run it through the development cycle to remove it for organized 12 mans at the launch party?

Do you ever think about anything you write or is it all just stream of consciousness lies that pop into your head at that moment?


You're confused. They didn't remove it for the launch party. They had the poll, and came back at the end and said they were going to push it for the next patch cycle. It took a couple of weeks to test and implement.

Quote

The work will be completed today (Aug 29th), with branch testing starting tomorrow and through the next week. The planned release date will be September 17th.


http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2706268

Edited by Heffay, 12 October 2013 - 05:59 PM.


#449 Thano

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:18 AM

Well PGI you ruined one of the few mech ames out there. MWO was that best game I played in a long time but your "heat flush","Ghost heat", and Third person view have broke the back of the camel, I may not have played since founding but long enough to know those three issues have made this game a steaming plie of never playing again and my plunger wount help pushing it down the pipe.

Hope your happy PGi you lost another costumer who would buy every new special mech you came out with and had been looking forard to the phoenix mechs, now Im going to my back monday going through my transactions since day one of playing this game and disputing every one and I will get my money back ban my *** I dont care cause your a horrible game now

#450 Navy Sixes

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:09 PM

I see now that this is the place for people who feel like they are doing something positive by complaining about PGI and it's developers. I'm sorry, I don't agree. I posted my opinions and I feel they are reasonable. If you think PGI has broken the game, you should go. I like ghost-heat; I think it worked in that it drastically reduced the stupid-alpha sniper builds that were ruining the game. I don't care about 3pv or whatever PGI said about 3pv before they changed their mind. I have never lost a match to anyone and thought, "Well, I'd have won if it weren't for 3pv!" and even if I did, that's the game PGI made, so if I'm going to keep playing, I need to get good at that game.

You don't like them for... reasons. It doesn't matter how good a case you make or how many times you call PGI and the players around you who disagree "idiots." You. Didn't. Get. Your. Way. And PGI didn't do anything wrong by not doing it the way you wanted it done.

Of course, you can always grief-troll (which is what many do) trying to sabotage the game and the community because others are enjoying something they are determined to be irrationally upset about. All I'm saying is don't do that. This is the definition of "first-world problem." If a f2p game is upsetting you so much that you would rather hang around and make others as upset as you, step away. Take a break. Use the time you spend playing a game you think is bad and saying ugly things about the people who made this game and the people who enjoy it to sponsor a little-league team or volunteer at a homeless shelter for a while. When you come back to your computer, promise yourself you will only play games you enjoy.

And if you find this sort of troll-behavior happening over and over, open yourself to at least the possibility that the problem has to do with you cherishing your grief more than just having fun playing a game, and get help. Life's too short, you know?

Take me, for example. As I said before, I realize this is the thread for people to complain that PGI is terribad and they love the game so much that it should be exactly the way they say it should be. If PGI doesn't do that, they're stupid, and the game will (and should) fail.

This isn't fun for me to listen to or make sense of. Since I'm not getting paid to be here, I'm going to leave now.

It's just that simple.

#451 MechFrog1

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

View PostHeffay, on 12 October 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:


You're confused. They didn't remove it for the launch party. They had the poll, and came back at the end and said they were going to push it for the next patch cycle. It took a couple of weeks to test and implement.



http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2706268

So you're proving me wrong by pointing out that the work has already been done and they could turn it off immediately? Your argument was that it would take dev time to pull out. So is this a formal retraction of your original statement?


View PostTycho von Gagern, on 13 October 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I see now that this is the place for people who feel like they are doing something positive by complaining about PGI and it's developers. I'm sorry, I don't agree. I posted my opinions and I feel they are reasonable. If you think PGI has broken the game, you should go. I like ghost-heat; I think it worked in that it drastically reduced the stupid-alpha sniper builds that were ruining the game. I don't care about 3pv or whatever PGI said about 3pv before they changed their mind. I have never lost a match to anyone and thought, "Well, I'd have won if it weren't for 3pv!" and even if I did, that's the game PGI made, so if I'm going to keep playing, I need to get good at that game.

You don't like them for... reasons. It doesn't matter how good a case you make or how many times you call PGI and the players around you who disagree "idiots." You. Didn't. Get. Your. Way. And PGI didn't do anything wrong by not doing it the way you wanted it done.

Of course, you can always grief-troll (which is what many do) trying to sabotage the game and the community because others are enjoying something they are determined to be irrationally upset about. All I'm saying is don't do that. This is the definition of "first-world problem." If a f2p game is upsetting you so much that you would rather hang around and make others as upset as you, step away. Take a break. Use the time you spend playing a game you think is bad and saying ugly things about the people who made this game and the people who enjoy it to sponsor a little-league team or volunteer at a homeless shelter for a while. When you come back to your computer, promise yourself you will only play games you enjoy.

And if you find this sort of troll-behavior happening over and over, open yourself to at least the possibility that the problem has to do with you cherishing your grief more than just having fun playing a game, and get help. Life's too short, you know?

Take me, for example. As I said before, I realize this is the thread for people to complain that PGI is terribad and they love the game so much that it should be exactly the way they say it should be. If PGI doesn't do that, they're stupid, and the game will (and should) fail.

This isn't fun for me to listen to or make sense of. Since I'm not getting paid to be here, I'm going to leave now.

It's just that simple.

The only person I see being actually negative about the game and telling others to stop playing is you. Maybe you should reflect upon that once you're done spewing bile and accusing others of malice.

Point of information: The high alpha builds didn't go away with ghost heat. Not even the PPC heavy builds went away until PGI twerked the PPC heat and projectile speed. Amazing how quickly people forget the past and pick up a selective memory.

Edited by mint frog, 13 October 2013 - 03:19 PM.


#452 Tetatae Squawkins

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:24 PM

View PostTycho von Gagern, on 13 October 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I see now that this is the place for people who feel like they are doing something positive by complaining about PGI and it's developers. I'm sorry, I don't agree. I posted my opinions and I feel they are reasonable. If you think PGI has broken the game, you should go. I like ghost-heat; I think it worked in that it drastically reduced the stupid-alpha sniper builds that were ruining the game. I don't care about 3pv or whatever PGI said about 3pv before they changed their mind. I have never lost a match to anyone and thought, "Well, I'd have won if it weren't for 3pv!" and even if I did, that's the game PGI made, so if I'm going to keep playing, I need to get good at that game.

You don't like them for... reasons. It doesn't matter how good a case you make or how many times you call PGI and the players around you who disagree "idiots." You. Didn't. Get. Your. Way. And PGI didn't do anything wrong by not doing it the way you wanted it done.

Of course, you can always grief-troll (which is what many do) trying to sabotage the game and the community because others are enjoying something they are determined to be irrationally upset about. All I'm saying is don't do that. This is the definition of "first-world problem." If a f2p game is upsetting you so much that you would rather hang around and make others as upset as you, step away. Take a break. Use the time you spend playing a game you think is bad and saying ugly things about the people who made this game and the people who enjoy it to sponsor a little-league team or volunteer at a homeless shelter for a while. When you come back to your computer, promise yourself you will only play games you enjoy.

And if you find this sort of troll-behavior happening over and over, open yourself to at least the possibility that the problem has to do with you cherishing your grief more than just having fun playing a game, and get help. Life's too short, you know?

Take me, for example. As I said before, I realize this is the thread for people to complain that PGI is terribad and they love the game so much that it should be exactly the way they say it should be. If PGI doesn't do that, they're stupid, and the game will (and should) fail.

This isn't fun for me to listen to or make sense of. Since I'm not getting paid to be here, I'm going to leave now.

It's just that simple.




Paul?

#453 Vassago Rain

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

View PostTycho von Gagern, on 13 October 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:


Words.



>operate a business.
>customers are unhappy with their purchases.
>belittle them.
>you are the only supplier in town.
>they keep buying, but tell their friends to never, ever, ever join them.
>very little user content created.
>claim everything is fine.
>launch to poor outside reviews and response.
>people stick around to spite you, and because you're still the only game in town.
>competitor launches.
>everybody leaves.
>business becomes a zombie.

We're already a fair few steps in. Something has to change, or history's gonna repeat itself.

#454 Chronojam

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:49 PM

View PostTycho von Gagern, on 13 October 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

[huge wall of text]

View PostTycho von Gagern, on 13 October 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

It's just that simple.


#455 MechFrog1

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostChronojam, on 13 October 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:


To be fair, most of it was just insults.

Edited by mint frog, 13 October 2013 - 03:52 PM.


#456 Heffay

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:38 PM

View Postmint frog, on 13 October 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

So you're proving me wrong by pointing out that the work has already been done and they could turn it off immediately? Your argument was that it would take dev time to pull out. So is this a formal retraction of your original statement?


It would take at least 2 weeks of work, including the developers and testers to take it out. You make a change to production code, you have to test it. This is not an option. This is time the testers could better spend testing out UI 2.0.

There is no "turn it off immediately" in production code. I'm sure you are aware of this. Of course, this is where we discuss the difference between the dev team and the test team. Maybe discuss change control process? Or talk about software development that is a little more mission critical than a 12 line "Hello World" program written in Visual Basic?

Edited by Heffay, 13 October 2013 - 05:59 PM.


#457 MechFrog1

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:43 PM

View PostHeffay, on 13 October 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

[/size]

It would take at least 2 weeks of work, including the developers and testers to take it out. You make a change to production code, you have to test it. This is not an option. This is time the testers could better spend testing out UI 2.0.
It would not. Stop it.

Before you chime in, no, stop it.

Edit: Since you're going to ignore my suggestion and chime in anyway, I've worked in software dev before. The functionality for removing 3PV is already in the game, though the organized 12 man option. Making that rule apply to all matches is not going to take two weeks of dev time.

Not that this is relevant at all since PGI is way too invested in 3PV at this point and to turn back now would take a huge amount of bravery and dignity. It's much easier to dig in and even double-down on the mistake. The incoming improvements to 3PV that I have no doubt are being worked on instead of UI2.0 or any number of other useful items will be epic!

Edited by mint frog, 13 October 2013 - 05:02 PM.


#458 Sandpit

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:18 PM

pgi can't retract 3pv at this point. Even if they wanted to, it would be waaaaaaay too big of a black eye now. 3pv is here to stay and unless you're lucky enough to have 23 other people to play with you have to play with it as an option in your games. I'm hoping that with CW, ui 2.infinity production time, and private matches we will finally get the ability to NOT be forced to play against it as promised.

#459 Heffay

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostSandpit, on 13 October 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

and private matches


It's already like that. If you're running private matches (currently by sync dropping), there is no 3PV.

I would guess that once they give us the ability to actually schedule private matches, they will either be all 1PV (as per the current system), or user selected. Most likely all 12 mans (CW, private matches, etc) will be 1PV only. Just like we wanted.

Edited by Heffay, 13 October 2013 - 07:07 PM.


#460 MechFrog1

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:20 PM

View PostHeffay, on 13 October 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

[/size]
Most likely all 12 mans (CW, private matches, etc) will be 1PV only. Just like we wanted.
Is that the royal we?

Because if I recall correctly, ~90% of players didn't want it 3PV at all. Getting it limited to pub drops is like finally getting asked to the dance but by the 2nd ugliest guy in the school rather than the 1st.





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