184 replies to this topic

[Trogusaur]

Why does everyone keep saying the Faf is a sniper? The canon variant has nothing but medium lasers and the obvious hulking beasts in its torsos. Aside from that, throw in heat problems, chance of falling over from its own weapons (???), laughably short ammo life, and unbelievably easy hitboxes (in MW4), and you have yourself one giant, 100 ton mess. It's a dedicated brawler, and not a very good one at that.

The Atlas, on the other hand, carries some diversity with LRMs. All it has to do is sit back, deplete the ammo bit, and close with its own ballistics and lasers. IMO even the original AS7-D is more than a match for the Fafnir in open battlefield. Give it the same tech as the latter, and the Atlas puts even some Clan assaults to shame.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 17 June 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Splatterbug]

Atlas over Fafnire 9 times out of 10.

Atlas has IDF.
IDF has more critical hit capacity.
Atlas has more sponge.
Atlas has fists for punching; don't discount double-diced head crits/removals.

Fafnir has short range firepower.

Fafnir isn't even always the better Uraban map pilot as it lacks any situational diversity. Even it's heat management removes some of the options you get with "bad" mechs that make them win the day, such as pop-and-drop LoS breaking heat spikes (Heat management is actualyl bad in many urban situations as it limits instant damage potential in a shot line of site scenario.)

Fafnir is a paper-stats mech that feeds into aggregate damage-at-range charts, and heat management charts; it's an unskilled pilots dream. Pilots with real skill will use the AS7 to it's fullest potential for better effect; for the team or solo.

[Splatterbug]

Lord Trogus, on 17 June 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

The Atlas, on the other hand, carries some diversity with LRMs. All it has to do is sit back, deplete the ammo bit, and close with its own ballistics and lasers. IMO even the original AS7-D is more than a match for the Fafnir in open battlefield. Give it the same tech as the latter, and the Atlas puts even some Clan assaults to shame.

Amen.

Non-linear facets of mechs (SRM, even LRM, critseeking open locations.... LRM IDF... XL death on torso loss/XL torsoloss (Clan) uberheatus)...) are often overlooked as people analyze pure stats and not a mechs functional use. "Capabilities at peak" versus "Capabilities over levels of degradation" are a profile to analyze within itself.

There are many "oldtech" mechs and their variants that own the field against "newtech"; and there are many ways to take negative factors of a mech and make them good (RFL-4D leg heatsinks, stand in water.. Bad heat management, spike damage, heatup and hide).

Non-XL engine mecha with max/near-max armor that are at the peak of their tonnage/speed ratio for usable weapon tonnage are commonly the best in the department of continued damage-over-degradation.

Innert Sphere mecha with XL inbound? Spread out, assign 2:1 to each (Sometimes Concentrated Fire isn't the best tactic), and ensure 1 of your guys takes out the rear, of not both get in on it.

Ramble ramble.

[Major Bill Curtis]

I'm guessing some guys have to be discussing the Fafnir 5B, which replaces Heavy Gauss with standard, adding in some ER Large Lasers to boot.

The standard Fafnir is a straight brawler.

[wanderer]

Ninja Chef, on 13 June 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

For sheer firepower I will also go with the Fafnir (even though it is 20 years away). Strip out all weapons and load up 2x Plasma Cannon and 2x LBX AC/10. Then upgrade the engine and heatsinks with the room that is left and you have yourself a sprinting can opener.

*sighs*

Plasma cannons aren't the same as they are in MW4. Canonically, they're strictly heat guns- they do that very well mind you but inflict 0 actual damage to a 'Mech. Plasma RIFLES are a pair of IS-PPC damage equivalent with a side order of heat-em-up (average about as much as firing a medium laser) per hit, with a range slightly lower than your LB-10X.

MW4 screws up everything- and the concept of a 100-ton "sprinting" is silly. At best, they hit about the same speed as an average stock 3025-era heavy- approximately 65kph. Now, you want to talk sensible, you can just drop the heavy gauss rifles down to paired standard ones and up the lasers to extended-range larges. Still slaps people around like nobody's business, but doesn't have to worry about falling over every turn.

Major Bill Curtis, on 17 June 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

I'm guessing some guys have to be discussing the Fafnir 5B, which replaces Heavy Gauss with standard, adding in some ER Large Lasers to boot.

The standard Fafnir is a straight brawler.

This, in other words. I keep telling MW4 fans that their ideas of weapons, construction, or function have been utterly FUBAR'd by Microsoft. They're gonna find themselves in a new world when beta opens.

Edited by wanderer, 17 June 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Ninja Chef]

wanderer, on 17 June 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

*sighs*

Plasma cannons aren't the same as they are in MW4. Canonically, they're strictly heat guns- they do that very well mind you but inflict 0 actual damage to a 'Mech. Plasma RIFLES are a pair of IS-PPC damage equivalent with a side order of heat-em-up (average about as much as firing a medium laser) per hit, with a range slightly lower than your LB-10X.

MW4 screws up everything- and the concept of a 100-ton "sprinting" is silly. At best, they hit about the same speed as an average stock 3025-era heavy- approximately 65kph. Now, you want to talk sensible, you can just drop the heavy gauss rifles down to paired standard ones and up the lasers to extended-range larges. Still slaps people around like nobody's business, but doesn't have to worry about falling over every turn.



This, in other words. I keep telling MW4 fans that their ideas of weapons, construction, or function have been utterly FUBAR'd by Microsoft. They're gonna find themselves in a new world when beta opens.

Checks sarna. Hmm...Forgive my mistake then. MW4 is the extent of my experience with the games and im limited in my knowledge with the lore. But, I still will give the Fafnir the advantage in open arena combat, The sniping capacity of gauss rifles would soften the enemy up before engaging them with the lasers.

[Trogusaur]

Splatterbug, on 17 June 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Amen.

Non-linear facets of mechs (SRM, even LRM, critseeking open locations.... LRM IDF... XL death on torso loss/XL torsoloss (Clan) uberheatus)...) are often overlooked as people analyze pure stats and not a mechs functional use. "Capabilities at peak" versus "Capabilities over levels of degradation" are a profile to analyze within itself.

There are many "oldtech" mechs and their variants that own the field against "newtech"; and there are many ways to take negative factors of a mech and make them good (RFL-4D leg heatsinks, stand in water.. Bad heat management, spike damage, heatup and hide).

Non-XL engine mecha with max/near-max armor that are at the peak of their tonnage/speed ratio for usable weapon tonnage are commonly the best in the department of continued damage-over-degradation.

Innert Sphere mecha with XL inbound? Spread out, assign 2:1 to each (Sometimes Concentrated Fire isn't the best tactic), and ensure 1 of your guys takes out the rear, of not both get in on it.

Ramble ramble.

Exactly. Role dedication isn't always the way to go, especially when dealing with a non-laser boat. IMO the best combination of a heavier 'mech is the jack-of-all-trades 'mech, with a variety of ballistics and energy weapons. I lack any experience in TT, but my favorite personal (custom) design in MW4 was a Battlemaster that featured a PPC, 2 LB-5X ACs, LRM-20, 4 MedLasers, and 75 kph engine speed (which translates to roughly the normal 64.8 for Classic rules). Never won a fight in a FFA match, but it ran circles around 100 tonners in organized combat.

The Atlas more closely embodies a well-rounded multirole assaultie, especially with the canon variant upgrades. The Faf, however, is doomed to a dedicated playstyle and won't stray much farther from its intended use. Ergo, min/maxing does not guarantee success. The Atlas is still superior even while handicapped with obsolete tech.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 17 June 2012 - 10:41 PM.

[TKG]

Ninja Chef, on 17 June 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Checks sarna. Hmm...Forgive my mistake then. MW4 is the extent of my experience with the games and im limited in my knowledge with the lore. But, I still will give the Fafnir the advantage in open arena combat, The sniping capacity of gauss rifles would soften the enemy up before engaging them with the lasers.

Open arena combat is there to be a spectator sport, chances are the atlas would then have it's armament altered and optimized to fight in such narrow confines. Combat rigs and Solaris rigs are very differing animals and should not be compared they perform two very different roles.

[Sable]

From personal experience with the Fafnir in mechwarrior 4 it does have a lot of armor but its box like shape made it very easy to target its heavy guass rifles. yeah they hurt but you don't even need to have halfway decent accuracy to target the left and right torso of the fafnir. Its like hitting the broad side of a barn... a barn as big as the pentagon.

[TKG]

If you want to see a real interesting match....throw an Akuma versus an atlas of equivalent design era.

[Miles Venere]

huge Atlas fan, it would be pretty close but the Fafnir's two heavy gauss cannons would rip the atlas in half..

[Miles Venere]

TKG, on 18 June 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

If you want to see a real interesting match....throw an Akuma versus an atlas of equivalent design era.

Never thought of that. That would be close

[reported]

Lord Trogus said:

Exactly. Role dedication isn't always the way to go, especially when dealing with a non-laser boat.

The Atlas more closely embodies a well-rounded multirole assaultie, especially with the canon variant upgrades. The Faf, however, is doomed to a dedicated playstyle and won't stray much farther from its intended use. Ergo, min/maxing does not guarantee success.

I think it's pretty ironic that you mention this, since Fafnir can be a rightfully brawler if customized, as seen previously, it also sports better Armor than most Mechs except for the flaw mentioned above.

It can be as much and stronger fit than an Atlas at that, but yes, you would be sacrificing the ranged role for more close quarters engangement. For example, Atlas can't get 4 Ballisticas of Large size, while Fafnir can.

I'd rather play Daishi than a Fafnir if I wanted to go full Ballistica other than Gauss. The mix of Ballistica and Laser capabilites is very nice on Fafnir.

Oh, and there's an official Atlas variation that ditches everything in arms for Light Gauss. I like to do that with Fafnir, it has way more than an Atlas will ever have and a lot more range with that custom.

wanderer said:

mechanicsgasm

Pretty sure he mentioned Plasma Cannon the same way people canonically or variably put a single PPC or two on a mech, which is quite reasonable for what he's going to use it. Yes, he probably knew all that but he's being humble due to inexperience in TT.

Edited by reported, 20 June 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[Astennu Zero]

Well, of course the Fafnir. I think I can speak for most people when I say Gauss Rifle > LRM 20.


This is why we always get nice things.
Always...

[Monsoon]

I love the Atlas, but it bows down to the superior Fafnir...

[Holski77]

enjoy

[Staradder]

forever Fafnir
or Atlas

[Vashts1985]

gamesguy, on 13 June 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Gameplay should NEVER be sacrificed for the sake of backstory.

Agreed, but

hever you ever noticed that the backstory for EVE is a direct copy and paste of battletech? (point unrelated)

[PLOG]

Atlas of comparable production date over Faf 9/10 times.

soon as anyone sees a Fafnir they know exactly what they must do in order to best fight it, that is the ultimate achilles heel.

mattPLOG

[Zakatak]

Fafnir, because it fires a pair of 250kg slugs at 2000m/s. If you can't do math, that is 1 gigajoule. Or 1 billion joules. More energy then a freaking 2000lb bomb. Badassery at it's finest.