490 replies to this topic

[HammerSwarm]

Wow.

I must say I appreciate a post made in a timely manner. I appreciate not being talked down to. I appreciate the reasoning behind your thoughts while making the change. (still not spending money because of 3pv, just announce no 3pv in CW and we can go back to me spending money. I'd hate to miss out on 2 medium mechs.)

I like that you are addressing flamers, and the mechanics of the UAC/5. Please keep other UAC in mind when working on the uac5. Eventually we'll have the 2-10-20 if the time line makes it there.

[Ozric]

WALL OF TEXT WARNING:

I love the sniper role, and have been running long range builds from the start. Two of the builds I use all the time have been affected by this change, a dual ERPPC/single Gauss K2 and a dual Gauss Jager. I have given myself enough time to be confident that I have got the hang of the new mechanics, and thought I should give some feedback while the iron was still hot.

K2: Despite the tons used by the Gauss rifle my K2 is primarily a ERPPC boat. The velocity of the ERPCC pre-patch meant that the shots were more likely to hit at range, and the limited ammo of the Gauss meant that I only used it when I knew I had a shot anyway. Squeezing this build into a 65 ton mech always requires a compromise somewhere, and for me it was ammo and heat.
The build has been affected more by the PPC changes than the Gauss charge, but as a back up weapon to a pair of ERPCC's I'd say a Gauss is still a good choice due to the heat and range, but perhaps not in a 65 ton Catapult. The velocity changes have pushed the Gauss up to the primary weapon in this combo too, as for a sniper the faster the projectile the better, but with this being the case maybe a pair of ERPCC's are not such a good back up to a Gauss rifle after all.
It is still possible to sync the shots with a bit of practice, and there are already a couple of excellent macros from some community minded people to help you out if you need it, but as before the patch you will only get a guaranteed straight shot if your target is stationary. The difference now is that the Gauss is faster than the PPC, so you have to fire them the other way around.
In conclusion, the Gauss charge has not affected this build that much, but the velocity changes and the added heat certainly have. This added to the less versatile Gauss means I'm pretty sure I will have to switch the build around, probably with 2xERLLAS replacing the PPC's, but my K2 looks so awesome right now I might just leave it in the mechbay looking awesome instead. As the nerf was designed to break the ERPPC/Gauss combo, and in my case at least it has, working as intended i guess.

GaussJager: My Jager is a dedicated Gauss boat with just 2xMLAS as back up, and as such is the best example I have for the Gauss changes. Luckily, the playstyle I have been using for this build (softly softly catchy monkey) is the the ideal way to use Gauss under the new rules and I was able to pick it up very quickly.
At long range it's kind of a mixed bag. The increased velocity has made the Gauss far more accurate, which is great, and with the addition of a working 4x zoom module sniping is in some respects the most fun its been in ages. When the stars align, and your targets forget about cover, you can still top the scoreboards with Gauss rifles.
What the new charge mechanic has done is made moving targets much harder to hit and reaction shots basically impossible. This limits the versatility of the weapon a great deal, and because you need to devote a lot of tonnage to the rifle and the ammo unless you are a dedicated sniper there are probably better choices for every other situation. It is extremely frustrating to loose shots because your target moved while the weapon was charging, and the added delay to the CD when this happens is even more so. And I often found myself focusing on the reticule rather than what it was pointing at, waiting for it to go green, which was no fun either. The charge up sound was a bit too subtle.
Up close, perhaps surprisingly, the Gauss has lost less of its power than at range. The closer the target, the easier it is to hit with a charged up shot and now its slightly less likely to explode as well. I've never really liked using Gauss in melee because of the CD, but it's no worse now than it was before the patch. At range it is better in some respects and worse in others. Working as intended? I'm not sure.


My general feeling is that the charge up time was unnecessary as velocity and CD are the only factors needed to change the ERPCC/Gauss meta. It has achieved the objective of making Gauss a niche weapon, like the LRM, but much like the LRM there are so many sacrifices that need to be made to builds and playstyles that I'm not sure that Gauss sniping is really worth it. We'll have to see what the 12vs12 teams start using to figure this out I suppose. I am going to keep using my GaussJager in pugs, if not my K2, and in a few weeks I'll know for sure if I still enjoy Gauss sniping or not. Until then, I have a couple of suggestions that may smooth out some of the mechanics rough edges.

Suggestions:
Reduce CD to compensate for charge up delay.
Increase firing window once charged.
Add a Charge Locked mechanic so you could charge up and hold indefinitely.
Disable Gauss explosions when the weapon is not charged.
Increase charge warning volume.
Increase Gauss damage....

Edited by Ozric, 04 September 2013 - 05:51 AM.

[Maxx Blue]

Played my PPC+Gauss Victor last night. Gauss charge wasn't a big deal. I'm not sure it really slowed me down much either, but I didn't mind it. PPC changes actually made more of a difference. Gauss change was a non-issue for me.

[Banditman]

So, grats on fixing nothing? I mean, a simple macro completely invalidates the entire PPC / GR desync that was intended.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sarevos, on 04 September 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

you cannot use lrms effectively with small pulse lasers or ac 20s due to their locking and arming mechanic but thats ok... so i dont understand the issue here... you speak In favor of alpha builds

I explain why alpha boats are still one of the most effective builds, and locking weapons into very specific firing characters will not help fight the boating mentality, nor the alpha mentality. It just locks people more into the behaviour and removes options.

You might think "we must add more restrictions then". Yeah, maybe, but how about you do this:
1) Standardize rates of fires (3-4 cycle rates are enough) and overall lower the rate of fire.
2) Standardize projectile speeds for PPCs and ballistics (2-3 speeds would suffice)
3) Remove Group Fire and replace ALpha Strike with firing all weapons with a short (0.5 second) delay between each weapon, possibly without convergence.
4) Refine chain-fire so that different weapons have different chain-fire delays and enforce all weapons to keep to their chain-fire delays (so no macroing or pressing two buttons at once).

That's one take for it at least. As long as you can alpha-strike and group-fire easily with full convergence, boats are the easiest possible build. Crazy weapon specific mechanics don't change that, they lock you even more into boats.

[William Knight]

I would prefer a bit more time before the capacitor charge dissipates, but all in all good job.

Edit: Oh and I wouldn't say no to being able to charge the capacitor as the slug reloads.

Edited by William Knight, 04 September 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Nooee]

The Gauss still explodes with no charge. So the reasoning for the Gauss explosions is now contradicting this mechanic.
Critting the Gauss rifle with no charge should just disable the weapon and not remove an arm or torso.

An additional note:

When the Gauss ammo is depleted, the weapon goes into a permanent charge state. (bar is green)

Edited by Nooee, 04 September 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[WarHippy]

Personally I find the mechanic clunky, and simply put not very fun. I also find it easier to use in close range than as a long range weapon. There had to be a better way of dealing with linked weapons than intoducing a mechanic that feels unresponsive. I would be a lot happier if you just upped the cool down on the gauss rifle to 7 sec so that linked shots could only happen at best every 7 sec.

[Violent Tendencies]

Orzorn, on 03 September 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I don't know, that 2000 m/s is pretty damn rewarding.

I was getting killed with it that I never would have before (of course, the ERPPCs would have been getting the kills, but that's besides the point).

The Gauss, I find, is still good for snap shots as well. 2000 m/s means that, at any range, you have a really, really small chance of missing.

The speed increase has no benefit. The speed does not increase the damage given, so it's really useless. Either you are good with leading your target, or you aren't--- 1200/2000 projectile speed is irrelevant. The speed increase serves only to throw a fake bone to players who feel they've been screwed by this ridiculous gauss mechanic. The gauss was fine and balanced the way it was.

Edited by Violent Tendencies, 04 September 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

I like the mechanic, it adds a nice bit of skill to using a weapon that should be used as a sniper, if you want an instant fire weapon use the AC10, otherwise deal with it. People might have to compromise a bit now which is a good thing. Overall I like the changes I'm seeing.

And considering the childish standards of most recent forum posts this one is remarkably civil.

[Vespere Dax]

Well I'm not PGI hater or even a hyper critical about the ways they have handled things but it finally when I feel my playstyle is a good place they go and turn it upside the head again.

I'm not against skill but I am against making things more overly complicated then they need to be. No person in their right mind would design a weapon like this. Imagine a sniper rifle where you have to preload the trigger for .75s and shoot within 1.25 then wait for othe 4s before you can shoot again. Would any of US marine corp use this PoS weapon? I think not.

If you must change gauss do this. Let it charge for 2s and hold the charge. The longer you hold the charge the more you heat builds up. 1h per 1s. So the longer you charge the capacitor more heat = less free dmg with out consequences.

Sorry for the rant but I'm a little weary of the 'skill' reasoning. Please just tell us you want to reduce sniping and alpha'ing which have the plagueing this game from the beginning.

Why not make other weapons more effective? I know that takes more time and effort but this nerf game will cost you more players in the long run. Trust me I've played Wow. I'd take breaks based on the patches. It was sad.

Good luck. I'm going to try a few other games for a month or two. Hopefully be back for CW. I'm not rage quiting but the constantly moving meta of this game is making it a little frustrating to play. Hopefully it will be all set by launch. I think a lot of people then will decide whether this game is the MWO they will play and continue to support.

Cheers,

Vespere

Edited by Vespere Dax, 04 September 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[SteelPaladin]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 September 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

I would generally advise against giving weapons handling-related special mechanics. That just encourages boating weapons even more.

It's okay to manage one type of special mechanic for a weapon, like the Gauss charge. But if multiple weapons you use have this mechanic, it creates a mental overheat that complicates matters, making it a lot easier to avoid mixing weapons all together.

Just like people tend to avoid mixing different ballistics - the mechancis are pretty much the same, but each ballistic needs a different lead time and has a different cooldown rate. So mixing requires you to get a feeling for the lead time needed for each weapon seperately, and always keep in mind which bleongs to which, and then you also have to coordinate the cooldowns to not waste damage potential.

Most shooters have you use only one weapon at a time, and don't expect you to switch from using your rocket launcher to a laser rifle to a mini-cannon within a 5 second timespan. Such shooters can afford different shooting mechanics for each weapon and truely add variety this way. But Battlemechs are armed with multiple weapons, and you won't see varied builds if the easiest option is to only mix identical weapons.

I'm of two minds on this. Weapons need to stand out in order to be used. They need to only stand out under certain circumstances, or they'll be the ONLY ones used. I don't see just tweaking damage/heat/cycle time being able to do that for all weapons. That doesn't leave much else besides some form of "role-based" behavior to tie the weapons to their circumstances.

That said, you're right that divergent fire profiles (cooldown, speed/burn, "firing mechanics" ala gauss rifle) will encourage players to not use those weapons together. The roles themselves can mitigate that to some degree, but only in the sense that you'll probably have to carry 2 weapon types instead of just one (e.g. sniper weapon + medium laser, so you have a bit of close in defense). That still falls short of the 3-4 weapons more common to BattleTech mechs.

The perennial favorite Unseen the Marauder is a good example of good role use and profile matching to get a decently diverse while still effective machine. AC/5 and PPC have the exact same range, including minimum range. W/16 heat sinks, the fire pattern alternates between 2 PPCs (building a bit of heat) and 1 PPC and the AC/5 (cooling). Medium lasers are there in case something gets close enough for the minimum range on the main battery to be an issue.

[WarHippy]

Jammerben87, on 04 September 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

I like the mechanic, it adds a nice bit of skill to using a weapon that should be used as a sniper, if you want an instant fire weapon use the AC10, otherwise deal with it. People might have to compromise a bit now which is a good thing. Overall I like the changes I'm seeing.

And considering the childish standards of most recent forum posts this one is remarkably civil.

Sorry, but what little "skill" they added with the mechanic was negated with the increased projectile speed. All we are left with is a clunky mess.

[The6047]

Any min/maxer will prob use a macro to get around this guass delay. This "balance" you guys keep coming up with is hilarious. I forsee a wave of noobs angry about macros because they are too dumb to figure it out. The community is already pretty split on their use. Good Work!

So you give 3PV to cater to the noobs. Then you tell noobs, " NO GUASS FOR YOU!" I am sorry but people who cannot figure out they are walking into a wall are probably not going to be able to use guass effectively either.

Props on the ER/PPC heat change. More good changes like that and you can get rid of your silly heat scale mechanic.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

the Gauss Rifle is still usable at short range. It just requires a much higher skill shot rather than a simple point and click.

This is the Joke of the week! Much higher skill than point and click. That is really funny!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 September 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Footupyzz]

Monky, on 03 September 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Please revisit mediums and the lighter heavies (60 tonners) as well. They are still really easy to pop and take a very skilled/lucky pilot to be a threat even in PUGS.

on what d r u g s are you??? (got to have it:D* just jokin')
got no prob with mediums and heavy as long as you understand what their role is in the game (As is with every class mech).
(Or am i skilled!? *then thanks for the ego boost:D)

Now let's see what the changes bring........

Edited by Footupyazz, 04 September 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[Andross Deverow]

I hope they do something fun with Flamers. Im hoping for something along the line of burning napalm sprayed onto the enemy which continues to burn and cause heat increases. That may require ammunition though huh? I dunno, a Flamer to me is like a flame thrower not an energy weapon which doesnt need ammunition of some sort. Fire needs 2 things to survive.
1- Fuel
2- Oxygen

Regards

Edited by Andross Deverow, 04 September 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Gallowglas]

FWIW, after some additional testing last night, I think the charge-up mechanic is acceptable, but I definitely think the time it retains its charge needs to be longer.

[Tombstoner]

I have been playing 12-24 hours a week since closed beta and the game has evolved into something i dislike. since i am not the target audience that makes sense.

PGI has acknowledged that i am not there target audience and have modified the game to such and extent i no longer enjoy the product.

The game has been uninstalled and i have asked for a refund for my overlord package.

it seems i'm not alone on this island and we all know it.

[SteelPaladin]

Andross Deverow, on 04 September 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

I hope they do something fun with Flamers. Im hoping for something along the line of burning napalm sprayed onto the enemy which continues to burn and cause heat increases. That may require ammunition though huh? I dunno, a Flamer to me is like a flame thrower not an energy weapon which doesnt need ammunition of some sort. Fire needs 2 things to survive.
1- Fuel
2- Oxygen

Regards

BattleMech flamers tap the fusion reactor to produce their effects. It's a short-range plasma weapon rather than a more traditional flamethrower. A standard flamethrower doesn't get hot enough to do much more than scorch the paint against armor designed to absorb mech-class weapons (though napalm could probably heat things up a bit).

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flamer