71 replies to this topic

[Decep-Qi-Kons]

You are a loser. Why? Because you have to insult people you don't know to brag about ability you don't have.

Your input is not valuable.

If you'd READ my post, you'd see that I specifically said that Gauss mechs with a homogeneous layout would probably be fine. I play mechs with a heterogeneous layout. Should the gauss weapon be used only in instances where the mech is specialized around the gauss? That is up to PGI to decide.

Devils Advocate, on 06 September 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

As somebody who averages 500-700 damage every match with my dual Gauss jager, if you can't figure out how to use the new Gauss you should probably find an easier game to play. With 3 mastered Awesomes I can tell you the PPC wasn't overpowered without the Gauss getting involved but it was, perhaps, too popular. A fully decked out 8 Q is almost completely useless right now because of how terrible PPCs are at the present time but I guess if weakening PPCs increases brawling I'll live with it. And by live with it I mean I'll never use my 8Q again.

Before this change the Gauss rifle was an AC15 that generated no heat and had more range than the AC10. Now it's a sniper rifle. I'm ok with that.

[Decep-Qi-Kons]

The exercise of trying to FORCE this weapon to be useful and report on my findings has been so frustrating, I actually have lost all interest in playing this game for a while. I have a number of mechs which relied on the gauss weapon and now any mech that relied on it, if it can't fit an AC20, I can't use it.

This includes my Heavy Metal, which used to be one of my money makers. I spent money on it and now, frankly, I can't use it optimally.

I've been running my Flame with a gauss in the sholder. It's probably the mech that has worked the best with this weapon. It's still too frustrating when I'm forced in to a brawl. I can't mix the SRM's and the ML's with the gauss mechanic when in a knife fight. This cuts my DPS, especially my pinpoint damage, easily in half.

I am left with my AC20 on all my ballistic mechs. The ones that can fit it, anyway.

[CravenMadness]

stop relying on one trick pony weapons? ... Honestly, I'm hearing lots of reports from clanners on how the dual gauss + advanced zoom is pretty awesome. And from the forums, all I'm hearing nothing but whining and moaning. And some guy trying to list a bunch of 'down sides' ... Most of the things he notes as 'negatives' all I can do is nod my head and say 'good, it's about time.'

[Lefteye Falconeer]

The OP shows terrible skills, bad adaptability, and a general lack of understanding of "balance" in a game. Seems just concerned with his/her own ability to "win", and for that I have no sympahy.

Sniping is still very possible and still very effective (while obviously not as much as before, since it was OVERPOWERED before), although it requires dedicated build and usually a build that does not perform as well in close quarters.

Which is good.

The changes are good and nerfed sniping to make the whole game better by making sniping a more balanced tool and one that requires more player skill. Get over it.

[Ridersofdoom]

feel the power of a beautiful gauss rifle:



now feel the difference.

[Decep-Qi-Kons]

Why do people have to resort to insults?

I stated, that a homogeneous build would work fine. However, heterogeneous builds do not.

You want to be a super sniper. I get that. But all the mech designs in the universe that have gauss rifles are heterogeneous.

In fact, the only mechs that can effectively become a homogeneous design are the Catapult, the Cataphract, and the Jager.

None of the assaults can be a homogeneous gauss design. Many of them come with gauss rifles.

What's the point of sticking gauss rifles on everything if they can't become good sniping builds?

If this game is to emulate tabletop, gauss rifles need some tweaking back.

If not that, then something needs to take the place of the Gauss in all of these builds. For that, I am suggesting the AC/10 get some light sniping tweaks, because it's the redheaded stepchild of the game.

The AC10 will never be a gauss rifle, but at least it should have a medium/long range role on mechs that are more heterogeneous.

Lefteye, on 07 September 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

The OP shows terrible skills, bad adaptability, and a general lack of understanding of "balance" in a game. Seems just concerned with his/her own ability to "win", and for that I have no sympahy. Sniping is still very possible and still very effective (while obviously not as much as before, since it was OVERPOWERED before), although it requires dedicated build and usually a build that does not perform as well in close quarters. Which is good. The changes are good and nerfed sniping to make the whole game better by making sniping a more balanced tool and one that requires more player skill. Get over it.

Edited by Killkie, 07 September 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Ironwithin]

Most of the people complaining about the last patch dont' seem to get it...

The problem wasn't the gauss being OP.
The problem wasn't PPCs being OP.

The problem was the combination of those two weapons was the single most used loadout, simply because it had NO drawbacks.
A brawler has limited range and it's firepower is useless at anything beyond that. You'd think a sniper would suffer the reverse but before the patch everybody and their grandma ran 2er-PPC+Gauss. Giving them 35DMG alphas on anything from short to long range while being able to reach out at extreme distances.

Now PPCs and Gauss are de-synced pretty effectively I'd say. When building your mech you have to take some weaknesses into account if you want to snipe, just as you have to if you want to brawl.
You can still snipe very well once you get used to the new projectile speeds and charging weapon, no problem there. You'll suck badly in close quarters though if that's all your mech can do. Play accordingly.

Balance may not be perfect now, but it is a hell of a lot better than before the patch.
Stepping out of cover for a quick look around and getting cored by a fusilade of 6 to 10 mechs with erppc+gauss combo sitting in their base IS NO FUN and that happened alot.

[Drunk Canuck]

There is nothing wrong with the changes, I welcome them with open arms. It's not hard to use the Gauss Rifle and the PPC is supposed to be a long range gap closer that are used as singular weapons, sometimes pairs depending on the Mech and variant, however not every Mech should be carrying a pair or more of the weapons because in terms of the lore aspect, running more then two would cause you to overheat and shut down instantly. I would rather have a game that is brawler friendly while snipers require skill to be good at. Having a learning curve is good for online games, otherwise it will become like WoW which is a bunch of easymode casual garbage where anyone can win in a PvP environment just by running the FOTM builds.

So, for all the crybabies, if you don't like the fact that you can't jump snipe poptart anymore without actually having to work to hit your targets, and if you don't like the fact that you can't carry 4 ER PPC's and alpha light Mech's in a single shot or cockpit people from 2000 meters by abusing the graphics system in order to do it, stop playing. It's really that simple, if you dislike the direction that this game is going, stop playing and let the players who want to enjoy this game and help make it into a potential competitive online game do what we are here to do.

[Ulvar]

pls nerf the uac too.
why? because pgi rule number one: if its fun it has to be nerfed to the ground.

i asked this before but is there some internal testing before changes are going live?

beside, where is the point in an exploding gauss if it was not charged at all?

Edited by Ulvar, 07 September 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Decep-Qi-Kons]

• UPDATED 9/07: While specialized, homogenous gauss mechs are probaby not affected by the change, what about heterogenous mechs that come with a gauss weapon, stock, and cannot fit an AC20? People with heterogenous builds are going to have a harder time keeping the Gauss in their mix of weapons and will, to them, become a liability, totally invalidating all but the most extreme of the cannonical mech designs which include the gauss

[Justy Starflare]

the timing is not easy to get used too i dont have time to look at my weapons board to determin if my gaus is ready to fire
i gotta say pgi the new gauss dynamic totally blows goats.

[Dreadp1r4te]

This thread is TL;DR. But my response to its intent may sound familiar:

"Quit whining, l2p."

That's what you all said to us when we said PPC and Gauss was overpowered.
That's what you said when 5/6ths of the 'Mechs in a match were using PPC and/or Gauss.
That's what you said when tons of new players were ragequitting because of that overpowered {Scrap}.
And that's what you said when we (the faithful BT fans) said it was tarnishing the name Mechwarrior.

So, I don't pity you, you who now cry out about how hard-to-use your precious one-shot-kill guns are. PPCs and Gauss are finally back where they belong, taking SKILL and PRACTICE to use, as well as a dedicated build that leaves little for defense or fallback.

Lasers are finally useful again on bigger 'Mechs. We can now actually brawl. We don't need XL engines in all our 'Mechs to make them carry more gun. THIS is what Mechwarrior is, or at least much closer to it. So, having problems with your new PPCs and Gauss rifles? "Quit whining, L2P nub."

Edited by Dreadp1r4te, 07 September 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[QnRamoth]

To the OP and anyone else who agrees with his statements....what game(s) do you come from that you feel some pathetic entitlement for sniping, or any other combat role, to be EASY and not require a learning curve to excel at?!

In Battletech, sniping at extreme range comes with huge penalties, and requires some of the best pilot stats to be truly wonderful at. Otherwise, you're just shooting and hoping for a lucky shot.

In real life, sniping is an extremely advanced role, held by a very few elite soldiers who have trained for years to hone the ability to account for numerous environmental and situational conditions that influence whether you successfully hit the target.

In addition, the "easy sniping" that you are promoting, that which results in 8 or more mechs per team running one-shot one-kill snipe builds, is neither realistic nor healthy for a competitive gaming model. You don't know anything about good game design or balance. You very obviously feel entitled to have a role be "easy", one which doesn't require time and effort to get better at.

Mechwarrior is supposed to be challenging, a game that offers little improvement that can be bought without consequence -- one where true advantage over other mechs comes from skill and practice. That's what makes MW different, in a good way. A game that's easy from the get-go offers little room for improvement and little incentive to keep playing. That's bad for you, and bad for the business model. Stop QQ'ing and looking for an easy mode and just practice til you hone your skill.

[Vulix]

Dreadp1r4te, on 07 September 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

This thread is TL;DR. But my response to its intent may sound familiar:

"Quit whining, l2p."

That's what you all said to us when we said PPC and Gauss was overpowered.
That's what you said when 5/6ths of the 'Mechs in a match were using PPC and/or Gauss.
That's what you said when tons of new players were ragequitting because of that overpowered {Scrap}.
And that's what you said when we (the faithful BT fans) said it was tarnishing the name Mechwarrior.

So, I don't pity you, you who now cry out about how hard-to-use your precious one-shot-kill guns are. PPCs and Gauss are finally back where they belong, taking SKILL and PRACTICE to use, as well as a dedicated build that leaves little for defense or fallback.

Lasers are finally useful again on bigger 'Mechs. We can now actually brawl. We don't need XL engines in all our 'Mechs to make them carry more gun. THIS is what Mechwarrior is, or at least much closer to it. So, having problems with your new PPCs and Gauss rifles? "Quit whining, L2P nub."

It's a shame you didn't read the thread, because if you did, you would notice people here are trying to have a constructive conversation and are not trolling or just whining. Your post isn't really helpful either and is just inflammatory.

That being said, I was a Gauss+ERPPC user and I did think it was overpowered. I felt there needed to be some balancing changes, and while I do not think the current gauss charge-up is perfect, I can accept it for now. It would help if they added a better if they added some more noticeable indicators of when the gauss is charged, or maybe if they smoothened the gameplay mechanic in some way; right now, it feels very choppy to get multiple gauss rifle shots off in a row, even at a comfortable distance away from any enemy fire.
I would have liked to see a buff to pulse lasers (they are still very underwhelming) and a removal of the 2-max LL first before nerfing sniping, mostly because many brawling weapons are still garbage even after the sniping nerf. Additionally, the should probably wait for tonnage limits to be implemented before attempting to balance the game even more. A lot of alpha-boat issues won't be as much of a problem when a team can't field 12 heavy\assault snipers.

QnRamoth, on 07 September 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

To the OP and anyone else who agrees with his statements....what game(s) do you come from that you feel some pathetic entitlement for sniping, or any other combat role, to be EASY and not require a learning curve to excel at?!

That's a great way to start your post! You sure are winning people over to actually read what else you wrote.

QnRamoth, on 07 September 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

In real life, sniping is an extremely advanced role, held by a very few elite soldiers who have trained for years to hone the ability to account for numerous environmental and situational conditions that influence whether you successfully hit the target.

In real life, an energy based weapon such as the PPC would have a faster projectile speed than a ballistic weapon such as the gauss rifle. Your point?

Edited by Vulix, 07 September 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[Dreadp1r4te]

Vulix, on 07 September 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

It's a shame you didn't read the thread, because if you did, you would notice people here are trying to have a constructive conversation and are not trolling or just whining. Your post isn't really helpful either and is just inflammatory.

That being said, I was a Gauss+ERPPC user and I did think it was overpowered. I felt there needed to be some balancing changes, and while I do not think the current gauss charge-up is perfect, I can accept it for now. It would help if they added a better if they added some more noticeable indicators of when the gauss is charged, or maybe if they smoothened the gameplay mechanic in some way; right now, it feels very choppy to get multiple gauss rifle shots off in a row, even at a comfortable distance away from any enemy fire.

I would have liked to see a buff to pulse lasers (they are still very underwhelming) and a removal of the 2-max LL first before nerfing sniping, mostly because many brawling weapons are still garbage even after the sniping nerf. Additionally, the should probably wait for tonnage limits to be implemented before attempting to balance the game even more. A lot of alpha-boat issues won't be as much of a problem when a team can't field 12 heavy\assault snipers.

I actually did read the thread. I merely claimed I did not, because when my friends and other MWO players tried to have constructive conversations on the subject of PPC/Gauss balance, we were replied to with scorn and mocking laughter from infants who couldn't be bothered to read or see the empirical evidence presented to them.

A long time ago, I ran an Atlas AS7-K equipped with 2 ER PPCs, a Gauss, and 2 medium lasers. I did this when double heatsinks were first introduced, long before PPCs got their heat reduction, and long before it became the meta to use gauss and PPCs. It was hard, even with 20-something DHS and only 2 heat-generating weapons of consequence, the Atlas overheated a LOT, but I practiced and was good with it. I then take a 3 month hiatus from the game due to a job where internet is as scarce as water on Terra Therma, and I come back to a cluster**** of PPC and Gauss and poptarting and all sorts of horrible things that made me cry out "DEAR GOD WHAT HAPPENED." When I tried to constructively discuss the immediate glaring problems I was presented with, I received only scorn and laughter in response. Forgive my poor attitude, if you will, as it is merely a product of the wonderful people that troll inhabit these forums.

That being said, I do agree with you that certain other changes need to happen. I'd like to see MPLas and LPLas become more effective considering their tonnage/heat differences, but that must be handled delicately because too much of a tweak will make them overpowered as well. I think UACs need toned down a bit too, somewhere between their previous jam chance and the current jam chance. Maybe, 20%ish? I'm not sure on the heat scaling of LLas, as I can easily see 6x LLas Stalkers becoming a pretty severe issue if they raise it too much, but perhaps limit it at 4? I don't really consider it that difficult to fire two seperate groups of four LLas, though, so I'm not really the best to ask.

Vulix, on 07 September 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

In real life, an energy based weapon such as the PPC would have a faster projectile speed than a ballistic weapon such as the gauss rifle. Your point?

Actually, the PPC accelerates atomic particles of matter at the target, making it sort of an energy-based gauss rifle. I'm unsure if it uses electromagnetism to accelerate the particles, though it does seem to be logical. It's unlikely the PPC would fire at speeds much higher than a gauss projectile, as even the Large Hadron Collider array (a particle accelerator of similar principles in real life) accelerates particles to about 0.999999991c, or about 3 m/s slower than the speed of light, with a 27km long accelerator path, so it's unlikely that kind of technology could be adapted to a much smaller size. Since our trusty PPCs have a mere 3 meter barrel length... well, you can do the math.

Edited by Dreadp1r4te, 07 September 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Vulix]

Dreadp1r4te, on 07 September 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

It's unlikely the PPC would fire at speeds much higher than a gauss projectile, as even the Large Hadron Collider array (a particle accelerator of similar principles in real life) accelerates particles to about 0.999999991c, or about 3 m/s slower than the speed of light, with a 27km long accelerator path, so it's unlikely that kind of technology could be adapted to a much smaller size. Since our trusty PPCs have a mere 3 meter barrel length... well, you can do the math.

Yes, but it's the year 3050! Then again maybe Comstar is just hording all the tech... =P

[Ulvar]

its just not the right way to nerf a almost balanced weapon to the ground to achieve that players wont use it in a ppc combo which is not so balanced.

Dreadp1r4te, on 07 September 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Actually, the PPC accelerates atomic particles of matter at the target, making it sort of an energy-based gauss rifle. I'm unsure if it uses electromagnetism to accelerate the particles, though it does seem to be logical. It's unlikely the PPC would fire at speeds much higher than a gauss projectile, as even the Large Hadron Collider array (a particle accelerator of similar principles in real life) accelerates particles to about 0.999999991c, or about 3 m/s slower than the speed of light, with a 27km long accelerator path, so it's unlikely that kind of technology could be adapted to a much smaller size. Since our trusty PPCs have a mere 3 meter barrel length... well, you can do the math.

actually projectile speed is limited in atmospheres because it would burn up before reaching a target while electrons travel at the speed of light.

Edited by Ulvar, 07 September 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[ShortBusBully]

See here is the problem. You and your friends can have a debate over what weapons are over powered or under performing etc etc. If you do it in public you will be trolled (fact of any forum on this planet). If you want to discuss it in private then by all means. Then you have those people (a few in this thread) that if they disagree with your point of view they lash out at you. Another fact that is all to present, you get your friends to discuss a subject to get them all to agree on the point, for example PPC/Guass is overpowered. Then instead of one person complaining about it you get 15 of your friends to agree then they have friends etc etc. Next thing you know 100 players out of 2000 (just throwing out numbers but you get point) are throwing a stink about this combo to the devs and they change it to satisify the 100 players and you have just pissed off 1900 others. To be truly successful the devs and other team members at PGI should be actively playing the game so they can see what works, what doesn't another example is 3pv. They can ask and poll players but not weigh their total decisions on the voices of few. But there is not a game out there that this happens because they are greedy and do not care about the player, they see dollar signs only. To bad this game has so much potential and each patch it goes downhill.

[Decep-Qi-Kons]

So you feel not only entitled, but obligated to troll people because this is a public forum.

You do realize that this is a beta test of a piece of software and it is our obligation to provide useful and constructive feedback?

Oh...I guess you didn't get that memo.

DirtyC, on 07 September 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

See here is the problem. You and your friends can have a debate over what weapons are over powered or under performing etc etc. If you do it in public you will be trolled (fact of any forum on this planet). If you want to discuss it in private then by all means. Then you have those people (a few in this thread) that if they disagree with your point of view they lash out at you. Another fact that is all to present, you get your friends to discuss a subject to get them all to agree on the point, for example PPC/Guass is overpowered. Then instead of one person complaining about it you get 15 of your friends to agree then they have friends etc etc. Next thing you know 100 players out of 2000 (just throwing out numbers but you get point) are throwing a stink about this combo to the devs and they change it to satisify the 100 players and you have just pissed off 1900 others. To be truly successful the devs and other team members at PGI should be actively playing the game so they can see what works, what doesn't another example is 3pv. They can ask and poll players but not weigh their total decisions on the voices of few. But there is not a game out there that this happens because they are greedy and do not care about the player, they see dollar signs only. To bad this game has so much potential and each patch it goes downhill.

[Masterrix]

I changed all my gausses into AC20s and play my snipers as mid-range-snipers now.

PGI is really a poor developer, they scrapped gausses for 80% of all loadouts just to nerf the gauss+PPC combo which was already nerfed before. They had no idea what influences this change has on many other valid-loadouts which are all suffering from it now. There was absolutely no need and no demand for a charge mechanism.

chargetime+reloadtime+discharges make the gauss to a really bad dps-weapon, completely inferior to other weapons, not to mention the confusing mechanic conflicts in microing heterogenous builts during combats.

that was really a no-brainer PGI !