71 replies to this topic

[GrizzlyViking]

What baffles me is why any military anywhere would commission a weapon that requires the pilot to pull the trigger to charge the weapon and then release the trigger to fire. One would think that any weapons requiring a charging time would charge automatically between shots and hold said charge until the trigger is pulled by the pilot. Further more, what military would buy a weapon that has to be charged by pulling the trigger before firing by releasing the trigger? How many sniper rifles has anyone ever heard of that fire on release of the trigger as opposed to pull of the trigger? The new firing mechanic for firing the Gauss rifle is cartoonish and clunky. Making the Gauss firing mechanic weird/clunky to solve a boating problem was a poor choice.

[Atheus]

GrizzlyViking, on 11 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

What baffles me is why any military anywhere would commission a weapon that requires the pilot to pull the trigger to charge the weapon and then release the trigger to fire. One would think that any weapons requiring a charging time would charge automatically between shots and hold said charge until the trigger is pulled by the pilot. Further more, what military would buy a weapon that has to be charged by pulling the trigger before firing by releasing the trigger? How many sniper rifles has anyone ever heard of that fire on release of the trigger as opposed to pull of the trigger? The new firing mechanic for firing the Gauss rifle is cartoonish and clunky. Making the Gauss firing mechanic weird/clunky to solve a boating problem was a poor choice.

Other military equipment design absurdities:

• Placing weapons anywhere other than near the top of the platform (mech)
  
• Positioning weapons that need to be aimed in rigid torso mounts, then only being able to tilt the torso 20 degrees or twist as little as 60 degrees side to side at an incredibly slow rate (stalker)
  
• Tanks with legs that still suck at traversing uneven terrain (thanks movement patch!)
  
• Firing dozens of tiny, slow missiles instead of one big fast one
  
• AMS mounted on the hip (highlander)
  
• Weaponized lasers that only fire 540m or less (real military lasers fire 300,000m+)
  
• Lasers that are aimed manually at targets that can be locked on (lol)
  
• Targeting computers that can track the position of as many mechs as you have line of sight to, but only scan in front of you, and only relay the position of one of them to your allies if you lock.

Edit: This is probably the best example of unfathomably stupid engineering:


Some moron engineer designed a mech with its only 2 weapon mounts in the center torso where there's just about no room for them. Then, adds a whopping 12 jump jets so it's can spend half of its life flying sky high, but neglects to design it so it can actually aim up or down more than 20 degrees, making it just about impossible to actually fight while using the single unique feature of the mech and launching yourself into the stratosphere.

W
T
F

Reality doesn't have a firm grasp on this game. It's all about arbitrary rules to make something interesting. Personally, I'm not going to use Gauss any more. If it isn't bad enough devoting 15 tons + ammo to a weapon that explodes instantly when scraped by a small laser, having to devote a completely different thought process to using them in tandem with other, more straightforward weapons just seals the deal. They're just not worth the effort.

Edited by Atheus, 12 September 2013 - 12:33 AM.

[Violent Tendencies]

As much as I hate the gauss penalty, if you increased the optimal range to 850 and max 1200, it may at least even things out. By their own admission, they've designated the gauss as a sniper weapon, so why not give it the appropriate sniper range? There's no way the ac2 shoud be the longest shot in the game.

[LastPaladin]

For mechs that have 2 ballistic points but can't carry dual gauss, I have been pairing the gauss with an AC/2. They both have the same speed now, so you can fire away with the AC/2 for some DPS while lining up shots for the gauss. It is a little tricky to get used to, but works pretty good.

For extra power, I throw a couple ER large lasers on the build, since they can hit pretty far, and with the speed of the gauss/ac/2, you don't have to move your aim much to strike with the lasers too.

[Karl Split]

I don't know what the op is smoking but jump sniping is alive and kicking.

A highlander with 2 ac 5/s and 2 ppc's packs a good alpha and you have some dakka for close range ^ ^

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Atheus, on 11 September 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

Other military equipment design absurdities:

• Placing weapons anywhere other than near the top of the platform (mech)
  
• Positioning weapons that need to be aimed in rigid torso mounts, then only being able to tilt the torso 20 degrees or twist as little as 60 degrees side to side at an incredibly slow rate (stalker)
  
• Tanks with legs that still suck at traversing uneven terrain (thanks movement patch!)
  
• Firing dozens of tiny, slow missiles instead of one big fast one
  
• AMS mounted on the hip (highlander)
  
• Weaponized lasers that only fire 540m or less (real military lasers fire 300,000m+)
  
• Lasers that are aimed manually at targets that can be locked on (lol)
  
• Targeting computers that can track the position of as many mechs as you have line of sight to, but only scan in front of you, and only relay the position of one of them to your allies if you lock.

Edit: This is probably the best example of unfathomably stupid engineering:



Some moron engineer designed a mech with its only 2 weapon mounts in the center torso where there's just about no room for them. Then, adds a whopping 12 jump jets so it's can spend half of its life flying sky high, but neglects to design it so it can actually aim up or down more than 20 degrees, making it just about impossible to actually fight while using the single unique feature of the mech and launching yourself into the stratosphere.

W
T
F

Reality doesn't have a firm grasp on this game. It's all about arbitrary rules to make something interesting. Personally, I'm not going to use Gauss any more. If it isn't bad enough devoting 15 tons + ammo to a weapon that explodes instantly when scraped by a small laser, having to devote a completely different thought process to using them in tandem with other, more straightforward weapons just seals the deal. They're just not worth the effort.

all of this

so i decided on this one to really try to play with the changes and see if there is a light at the end of the proverbial tunnel. this is what i found.

Concerning the gauss;

- The charge time decreases the rate of fire significantly, good/bad idk, but personally i would like the dps back to where the Gauss is useful as an off hand sniping/no-heat weapon again. as others have pointed out the AC20 and ultra 5 both deal tons more dps in an average match, dual ultra 5's being no slouch with sniping either. even clustered ac2's are a good idea for sniping as long as you don't chain fire.

- the charge time mechanic, it is very hard accept if you already had trained yourself with the old gauss. at long ranges its not bad, in certain ways its nice because of the release of the mouse click and the charge is easy to keep track of if your not under fire.

- gauss speed - eh really nice for aiming, it kinda almost makes up for the charge mechanic because of its sheer ability to hit *$&. personally i think the gauss should shoot farther if it has this much speed, it should out-range the ac 2 and ultra 5 to make up for the lower dps.

- the real deal concerning gauss-> many of us own many mechs, it may beguile us as to why pgi decided not all highlanders or victors get to use an ac20 or why misery has 1 missile slot, who actually buys champion mechs or what all those other stalkers..... are for.... when will we get weapons and diversity in map design or why mechs cant climb hills..... but alas the issue im having is that many of my mechs that used 1 gauss for its pure alpha now need an ac20 (HGN-HM, HGN-733, HGN 732, V-DS to name a few), i can cheat and put mixed ac's in some of them to make up that lost alpha, but truly an ac20 would be what fits the bill, especially on assaults. this just seems such a backhanded move, i dont want to use another weapon on my highlander II build but i guess now... idk. i have much to consider.

concerning the ER/PPC

- the projectile speed decrease is fine maybe a little on the slow side but not bad at all once you get used to it.

- ppc damage under 90m - finally, thank you.

- er/ppc heat - just a little extreme on the ER i think. below i ran a test, please run your own tests and variations to compare if you want. This test is to show the relative effectiveness of combining the gauss with a high heat energy combo by determining the sustained firing capability until the point of overload. this is important because if two mechs face each other 1v1 and they are both around equal in weight/firepower/skill, he who shuts down first is likely to lose. Sustained fire capability is paramount in team play as well.

- so i set up on Forest Colony in the training grounds, with HGN-HM: 18 DHS: XL 300: no JJ for this test, armed with a Gauss and switched up between 2 PPC, 2 ERPPC, 3 LPL, 3 LL, and 3 ER LL, these are done firing all weapons, and precharging the gauss to fire the same instant as the others, at full bore until the mech overheats. each test starts with my mech at full walking speed (54kph) overland and with 3% walking heat. all tests were run at least twice to verify. 2

for comparison

- 2 ER/PPC = 14 tons 6 crits

- 3 ER/LL = 15 tons 6 crits

- 3 LPL = 21 tons 6 crits

- 2 ERPPC can fire 3 times before you max on heat and you can shoot the gauss twice if you precharge, before you overheat on the third ERPPC shot.

60ERPPC+30G=90 Damage

- 2 PPC can fire 6 times before shutdown and you can fire the gauss 5 times (with precharge) in this span of time.

120PPC+75G=195 Damage

- 3 LPL can fire 3 times and you can fire the gauss twice then shutdown

95.4LPL+30G=125.4 Damage

- 3 LL can fire 4 times and gauss 3 times then shutdown.

108LL+45G=153 Damage

- 3 ERLL can fire 3 times and gauss 2 times then shutdown.

81ERLL+30G=111 Damage

so from this test we can conclude from a sustained fire point of view in combining high heat energy with the gauss; over 90m the 2 PPC is king of the gauss combo being able to deal almost 200 damage before overheating and sustaining fire for twice the time compared to most of the other weapons, 6 shots before overheating. for brawling the 3 LL comes in a good second at 153 damage and 4 shots before shutdown.

on the low end we can see the worst performers were ironically the 2 ERPPC with a pitiful 90 damage, even 3 ERLL are able to pull 111 over the head of erPPC with the same amount of shots and the LPL stomped both with 125 damage again in 3 shots also taking the absolute DPS record.

strictly speaking from a long range direct fire viewpoint. 3 ERLL look much better then 2 ERPPC, its not instant and it is a little shorter range, but it will produce better dps over the course of a match with good shooting and sustained fire. and you will be able to use them better than ERPPC's when the battle closes to a brawl being able to chain fire 3 ERLL vs 2 ERPPC heat monsters. It even compares well to PPC's in regards to its DPS at long ranges it is unparalleled by the other energy weapons.

I would advise PGI to actually lower ERPPC's heat a small amount like 1, increase ppc projectile speed slightly (just another 100m-150m/s), increase (lengthen) the recycle time of ppc's slightly maybe quarter to half a second, remove the gauss charge or reduce its recycle time to compensate for its lower dps, slow the gauss projectile a little (maybe 100m-200m/s less) but increase its total effective range closer to 800m-900m and give it a true minimum range like the PPC where its projectile simply does not do damage, or does very little damage. I think if they did that, everyone would be happy.

and please posit this.

- there are 3 main ways to have a dedicated long range battery in mwo, these are with LRMS, gauss+ppc/ERLL and ac2+ac5/ultra5 combos with lots of ammo

I see many many players using combinations of these weapon schemes to fill the long range-med range firing gap before the ac20/srm smashers can unleash their thunder.

this, if you think about it presents us with a perfect paper scissors rock scenario that i think PGI should help not hurt. it goes something like this, and these are all good things.

LRMS/ indirect support -> direct counter to pew pew/dakka dakka death (sensor decay with spotters), good for driving defenders out, destroys slow mechs of all kinds

- no need for direct line of sight, or exposing oneself

- destroys mechs quickly and allows indirect team convergence

- must maintain team coordination and maintain tactical locations for firing angles and supporting the team

- heat, weight and ammo constraints demand balanced builds, your team should have a reasonably sized lrm rack on almost every mech. LRM boats leave your team a little vulnerable, its better to have a balanced build.

-lrms are nice because you don't have to dedicate your whole build to using them, an lrm 10-30 is sufficient leaving room for lasers and cannons. lrm boats are not usually a good idea solo bc they often are left unguarded and become scrap for the other long range builds any short range build and any light.

AC/ ratta-tatat -> is the direct counter to alpha striking mechs of all kinds, exceptional against gauss/ppc builds, excels at all ranges if built and piloted right. weak really against only skilled pilots and lrm cheese if your slow.

- can sustain a high rate of fire effectively disabling an unskilled pilot on the receiving end

- usually does alot of dps for very little heat

- good at all ranges

- must have "creative" keybindings for some builds

- good combos like AC 2+ AC 5/ultra 5 or dual+ ultra 5's dont need you to sacrifice all your firepower for ammo and cannons, the victors/highlanders/cataphracts are amazing when used with combos of AC's and backup weapons.

gauss/ppc/ long range direct fire alpha+JJ -> direct counter to lrm boats and fatlas's

- very good at the hill and angle game if used right

- the ability to instantly disable and sometimes kill enemy mechs, IE trash a side torso or leg in one alpha

- if used with JJ and/or a speedy build can allow for a balanced and useful 20+ damage sniper that can reposition quickly to support the team vs a slow 40-60 alpha heavy/assault sniper.

- usually requires you to either make a dedicated sniper build because of heat/weight constraints or use one or two ER/PPC with/or a gauss with backup weapons.

all of these are valid long range builds. its just that direct fire gets alot of heat because its effective in skilled hands, it really doesn't matter if your long or short range when your aiming for that XL or that ac 20 to take it out of action. nothing beats laying that damage right where you want it. Thats why the ac 20 ppc gauss and ultra 5 are just monsters, yes LPL are deadly, but i like my mix of LL, ML for that heat efficient sting.

now the gauss is some strange turbo charged contraption that requires some "manual" coaxing to shoot, strange but different... not a bad thing just why the gauss? it already suffers super crits, weighs more than any other ac, already competes with the ac20 which is a most supreme weapon right now. i mean im not pointing fingers but the ac 20 and ultra 5 are king for the most part, the gauss was a contender in this game. but not by a long shot now with a pre-charge? as a sniper weapon? that is used mostly in builds that need it for its low heat instant hit damage?

how are you even supposed to fight that dual/triple/quad ultra 5 blaster? if your lucky he jams first thing, if not anywhere from 20 damage->death could be your fate. and the gauss only deals 15 damage, slower now. vs ac 20s with higher alpha and dps and ultra 5's which just out dps everything right now who wouldn't be upset that their highlander or victor (or other one armed ballistic mechs that cant fit the ac 20, just a gauss or some strange combos of ac's) now has an even more strangely crippled gun arm? honestly i will just make up the difference, but ultra 5's get boring, at least the ac 20 and the gauss have that rush of oh "dont miss its so much in a single bullet i cant waste a single shot!"

lastly please remember the gauss is the go-to weapon for the ERPPC and other high heat energy builds because it doesn't make heat. making a mech that uses high heat weapons complimented by no heat weapons (that have their own tradeoffs) is a classic example of balancing a mech. pilots of mechs that have little choice other than a gauss now see their options more limited from the gauss mechanic change.

that is all, thank you for your time and consideration.

[Rumjaku]

Killkie, on 05 September 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

• It is not easy to switch, mentally and contextually, from guass to the normal game mechanic. I find myself precharging weapons that don't need it, and obviously firing them too soon
  
• when a teammate steps in front of you, it, effectively, disables your weapon if you were in the middle of operating the mechanic
  
• UPDATED 9/07: While specialized, homogenous gauss mechs are probaby not affected by the change, what about heterogenous mechs that come with a gauss weapon, stock, and cannot fit an AC20? People with heterogenous builds are going to have a harder time keeping the Gauss in their mix of weapons and will, to them, become a liability, totally invalidating all but the most extreme of the cannonical mech designs which include the gauss

I have NEVER scored a TK with a Gauss rifle until the new charge mechanic was introduced.

I also heavily agree with you on getting confused when firing weapons other than Gauss, most commonly in heterogeneous Mech loadouts.

[joker1974]

No more Gauss for me, utterly stupid mechanism to fire. I loved Gauss, and now they took it away.

[BulletFetish]

Main problem I have with the gusss is that I cant hear the mechanic when in combat so frequently miss shots because I have just passed the time out period. I have no idea how to fix this. Maybe a big Gause chare info graphic in reticle, Reticle change color or shape?

Difficult to use as is.

[Duke Nedo]

Think THIS change was great, but now you could remove the ghost heat scaling and be done with it.

[FireDog]

MAJOR Gauss nerf for us poor joystick users... ErPPC too hot as well. PGI quit with the sorry weapon nerfing and give us NEW GAMEPLAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, Why in the he11 does PGI love lights so much?

Edited by FireDog, 16 September 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Gorgo7]

Sir/Madam

I pilot a dedicated (ER) PPC machine (AWE-9M) the heat increase doesn't bother me but the velocity change does. At 1200 m/s it is too slow. It should be instant on target as the lasers are. No dodging.

Cheers,

Gorgo7