185 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Alistair Winter, on 07 September 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

I play all weight classes, though I probably play heavy mechs more than light mechs. I have more trouble going up against an assault mech in my light mech, than I do going up against a light mech in my assault mech. Even in my Awesome 8Q, which is arguably the worst assault mech in the game, I will eventually smash most light mechs with my PPCs.

I'd rather go up against any mech than a light, no matter what mech i'm in. I've pounded the {Scrap} out of light mechs with ERPPC's (My K2 was the only mech i used for a long time) and they seem to do little damage.

Quote

Very few people in this game restrict themselves to one weight class. But of those who do, I've rarely seen anyone argue that their own mechs should be nerfed.

Everyone has their favourites But i was just pointing it out as a reason players will disagree with the OP.

Quote

This is a big factor against bad players, and less of a factor against good players. As skill levels increase on both sides, the ability to hit your target becomes less and less of an issue, and other factors become more important.

You really don't need to be a world class gamer to hit a light mech with large lasers and streaks in this game.

It has nothing to do with being able to hit them. I rarely miss, but it's impossible to keep hitting the same bit of armour over and over, unlike when firing at an assault. They torso twist so slow that you can keep your shots hitting one area, say ct. You will probably also hit the side torso's if the assault player has the sense to twist, but most shots will hit the same area.
With a light however the hits will be spread all over due to the lights speed plus torso twist. All that armour adds up.
A jenners head, arms, torso, and side torso armour comes to around 160 i think, and an Atlas torso and side torso's comes to around 200. It's not that big of a difference. Of course you may be lucky enough to hit the same area often and get through the lights armour fast, but i find i get through an Atlas armour much faster consistently.

Quote

On the contrary, PGI wants the assault mechs to be the best mechs, because that means they make more money. Assault mechs are, after all, more expensive.

They want all the players to get assault mechs, and they want the price to be so high that players will be tempted to buy premium time or use MC to buy standard mechs or hero mechs.

If it's one thing PGI pays close attention to, it's how to adjust the game to ensure maximum profit. That is why...

• We have "upgrades" that are more or less mandatory for all mechs, especially Double Heat Sinks.
  
• We now make less money per match than we used to
  
• We have to buy several variants of the same mech in order to be competitive
  
• We only get 50% for selling used mechs and it's impossible to buy a mech chassis without engines, weapons and upgrades, even though you don't want any of those

These factors are all in place to make things more expensive, to make you more inclined to spend real money on this game. And the same applies to why assault mechs are better than light mechs.

Well i was just using PGI's words when they said they wanted Lights to be the class that kills assaults.

[Alistair Winter]

Wolfways, on 07 September 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with being able to hit them. I rarely miss, but it's impossible to keep hitting the same bit of armour over and over, unlike when firing at an assault. They torso twist so slow that you can keep your shots hitting one area, say ct. You will probably also hit the side torso's if the assault player has the sense to twist, but most shots will hit the same area.
With a light however the hits will be spread all over due to the lights speed plus torso twist. All that armour adds up.
A jenners head, arms, torso, and side torso armour comes to around 160 i think, and an Atlas torso and side torso's comes to around 200. It's not that big of a difference. Of course you may be lucky enough to hit the same area often and get through the lights armour fast, but i find i get through an Atlas armour much faster consistently.

This is why people are saying that SSRMs are now useless - because they hit light mechs all over. Now, as soon as the Kintaro came out, I ran an experiment with a Kintaro equipped with 5 SSRMs. I have never burned through light mechs at such ridiculous speeds.

The advantage of having a stationary target must be weighed up against the advantage of being stationary. It's easier to hit someone who's going 50 kph, but it's also easier to hit other people when you're going 50 kph as opposed to 150 kph.

How often have you seen a light mech trying to duck, bob and weave, dodging bullets at 150 kph and circling his target, only to run face first into a cliff, drop to 0 kph and take a 2 PPC + Gauss alpha to the face? I see that happen quite regularly, and I expect to see it even more when they bring back collisions.

In the Atlas, you don't really need to worry about crashing and using cover against a light mech, so you can focus all your energy on hitting your target. That's easier, it requires less multitasking.

Anyway, we can swap rational arguments back and forth all day, like a couple of 13th century philosophy scholars, without ever coming closer to the truth. And the truth, as I always say in threads like this one, is in the pudding. Look at statistics. Take a screenshot after each match, play 100 matches. Check to see how many people are playing each weight class, and how well those people are doing. Count the number of times the light mechs have top score, let alone top damage or top kills.

Wolfways, on 07 September 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

Well i was just using PGI's words when they said they wanted Lights to be the class that kills assaults.

Well, I don't know about you, but it's been some time since I took what PGI said at face value

[Wolfways]

Just thought i'd add...
My only experience in a light mech (other than a little messing about with trials) is when i mastered my RVN-3L (after they were fixed). I never did much damage but that was because i played as a scout, using TAG for my team (pugs), capping points, or providing ECM cover. It has mostly been left as pretty much stock so was never a great mech, but i could kill other mechs with very little worry of being destroyed and if my team lost i was often the last mech alive and it took the enemy a long time to kill me.
But i just got bored with it, and it didn't feel like a heavy war machine (not that any mechs do now with the new dancing speed) and i shelved it, only occasionally getting 2xXP with it.

The biggest surprise for me was that when you watch lights run around they seem very erratic, bouncing all over the place, yet when you play one it's very smooth, almost just like playing a bigger mech. It felt kind of mellow actually...

[Kazairl]

Wolfways, on 07 September 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

A jenners head, arms, torso, and side torso armour comes to around 160 i think, and an Atlas torso and side torso's comes to around 200. It's not that big of a difference. Of course you may be lucky enough to hit the same area often and get through the lights armour fast, but i find i get through an Atlas armour much faster consistently.

This is true. I often see Atlas's die too fast.

[Wolfways]

Alistair Winter, on 07 September 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Well, I don't know about you, but it's been some time since I took what PGI said at face value

lol so true

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 07 September 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with being able to hit them. I rarely miss, but it's impossible to keep hitting the same bit of armour over and over, unlike when firing at an assault. They torso twist so slow that you can keep your shots hitting one area, say ct. You will probably also hit the side torso's if the assault player has the sense to twist, but most shots will hit the same area.
With a light however the hits will be spread all over due to the lights speed plus torso twist. All that armour adds up.
A jenners head, arms, torso, and side torso armour comes to around 160 i think, and an Atlas torso and side torso's comes to around 200. It's not that big of a difference. Of course you may be lucky enough to hit the same area often and get through the lights armour fast, but i find i get through an Atlas armour much faster consistently.

Why are you shooting at a Jenner's head, arms, torso, or side torsos in the first place? If you can answer this question truthfully, it might give you the first clue as to why you find lights hard to kill.

[Tynan]

Jenners have massively outsized CTs. If you're hitting them anywhere besides the legs or CT you're either very unlucky, using LRMs, or doing it wrong. Raven 2x and 4xs are barely faster than most mediums at top speed. Commandos don't have jump jets and are remarkably easy to hit, especially compared to other lights. Spiders' hitboxes are broken, yes, but given their hardpoints it's still relatively rare to see one do more than 300-ish damage.

Anyone complaining about how lights are too good I highly advise to take one out for a few rounds. Go from your Atlas or Stalker into a Commando-3A and let me know how that works out for you.

The reason you see lights as the last 'mechs in a losing fight fairly often comes down to two things:
1) They have the ability to bug out when things go sideways, and
2) They're usually not priority targets--no one's *trying* to kill them until the heavy firepower's dealt with. You put a Cat-K2 with dual Gauss or AC20s side by side with a Jenner and you know which target people are going to pick.

[Aluminumfoiled]

Just fix the spider and all is well. Average hit detection errors I can deal with. 3-6 spiders a match now. If that doesn't tell you somethings wrong, I got this bridge I'm selling cheap. Hardly used even. ERPPC to the face stationary, troll powers increased tenfold.

Known issue for a long while. Losing matches due to this. Hate to even mention lights-thankless hard job that they have. (notice the good pilots leaving off the ECM, not needed).

[Disapirro]

MicroVent, on 07 September 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Just fix the spider and all is well. Average hit detection errors I can deal with. 3-6 spiders a match now. If that doesn't tell you somethings wrong, I got this bridge I'm selling cheap. Hardly used even. ERPPC to the face stationary, troll powers increased tenfold.

Known issue for a long while. Losing matches due to this. Hate to even mention lights-thankless hard job that they have. (notice the good pilots leaving off the ECM, not needed).

I have a feeling all will not be well with some. You will just find another boogy man.

[Relic1701]

I'll just leave this here.....

[Xendojo]

I love my ravens

And i have since the day they came out. Right now lights are not as powerful as they have been.

I have though, in my 142KPH RVN-3L ran through several main bodies of the enemy and survived. But i took damage, i was beat up after i made it through and only maybe as much as i should have been.

One mistep, one mistake, and i would not have made it through. To weave through 8-12 mechs and live, this should be a credit to the pilot, not light mechs being OP. And there are some dedicated light pilots, who have lots of practice.

Edited by Xendojo, 07 September 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[Disapirro]

Now that's funny.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 07 September 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

Why are you shooting at a Jenner's head, arms, torso, or side torsos in the first place? If you can answer this question truthfully, it might give you the first clue as to why you find lights hard to kill.

Because i'm trying to kill the little ***** at long range before they get anywhere near me (which isn't easy on these tiny maps) and it's very hard to hit the legs from a distance.

[Judge Redeemer]

Imperius, on 07 September 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

With the lack of collisions and rampant nerfs to all weapons that efficiently kills a light mech the game has become a joke, and ECM is still OP as day one. Congrats on fixing the HSR, now can we get some collisions? When I see a light run into 50 things to circle me and I hit one rock and stop I see a huge issue. What skill is involved in this kind of play? I mean really tell me? when you have 4 lights do this might as well ALt+F4 and go youtube or play a better game. All I see it buff after buff to a light mech. THEY ARE SCOUTS!!! NOT BRAWLERS LIKE YOU HAVE MADE THEM PGI. FIX THIS NOW!

You do know that one your atlas alpha can blow it to smitherins!
you got a ******* 100 ton tank so use it!

[Wolfways]

Tynan, on 07 September 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

Anyone complaining about how lights are too good I highly advise to take one out for a few rounds. Go from your Atlas or Stalker into a Commando-3A and let me know how that works out for you.

I did that. I got a hell of a lot more survivability. But in a RVN-3L though not a Commando. Actually i think Commando's are probably about where i think all lights should be.

Judge Redeemer, on 07 September 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

You do know that one your atlas alpha can blow it to smitherins!
you got a ******* 100 ton tank so use it!

Completely depends on the weapons loadout.

[sokitumi]

It's not as much a light problem as a server and never ending SDR problem. The SDR is a poor design and sits at the thresh hold of 'possible' with this engine/netcode - in hitbox size and speed.

[Tynan]

Wolfways, on 07 September 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Actually i think Commando's are probably about where i think all lights should be.

Then it's a damn good thing the devs don't agree with you, or no one would pilot lights. If all we had were commando-equivalents you'd see one light every four matches, at best.

[Imperius]

Collisions are coming back. It was announced in the NGNG podcast. When that happens I can't wait for the babies defending lights here to come back to cry that it's too hard to avoid things while running fast and shooting and the change killed lights playability.

[Lord Ikka]

I'll be glad when collisions come back. While I don't think Lights are OP right now, I do think that collisions will give some of the newer Light pilots, who didn't deal with it in Closed Beta, a pretty hard learning curve. Of course, this will teach them to pilot even better, so watch out for some of those Light pilots to get even nastier when they learn to pilot with some more caution.

[Imperius]

Tynan, on 07 September 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Then it's a damn good thing the devs don't agree with you, or no one would pilot lights. If all we had were commando-equivalents you'd see one light every four matches, at best.

Actually they are looking into slowing down all lights to match the net code so they can be hit. They are going to test the servers at max speed a light can be hit without registering wrong. Then they are going to drop it down 30kph for an advance mod "speed" not sure what it's called but the lights can sprint at the risk of blowing their legs up. So with collisions and a speed drop. I will see you here later saying it's not fair.