185 replies to this topic

[WM Wraith]

Imperius, on 07 September 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

You understand nothing. Until my Atlas runs at 136kph, we are not equal. Until my mech torso turn speed matches yours we are not equal. Until my mech can run over all terrain and though mechs like lights do quit talking to me about equality. Lights are fast and with speed the trade off is you're a fly. One mistake you pay for it with your life that is how all mech games except armored core have handled any light mech. This Sim should be no different.

With the current mech movement model, an Atlas at 136 kph would shake you worse than a blender. My Kitana at 81 kph has less bounce than my Atlas at 58 kph.

But according to PGI, working as planned right?

[YueFei]

Wolfways, on 08 September 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Please tell me how to counter it.

Look up aerial dogfighting techniques, and look at the difference between a "one circle fight" and a "two circle fight". You want to turn the fight into a "one circle fight" if you are in the slower turning mech. You want to break away from the more agile mech's turn "post", rather than allowing him to keep you in his post.

[Scratx]

Actually, bolding the relevant OP part.

Imperius, on 07 September 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

With the lack of collisions and rampant nerfs to all weapons that efficiently kills a light mech the game has become a joke, and ECM is still OP as day one. Congrats on fixing the HSR, now can we get some collisions? When I see a light run into 50 things to circle me and I hit one rock and stop I see a huge issue. What skill is involved in this kind of play? I mean really tell me? when you have 4 lights do this might as well ALt+F4 and go youtube or play a better game. All I see it buff after buff to a light mech. THEY ARE SCOUTS!!! NOT BRAWLERS LIKE YOU HAVE MADE THEM PGI. FIX THIS NOW!

Wolfways, on 08 September 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

lol you just kind of proved his point.
If you are the fastest mech in the group you are the scout, no matter if you're a light or an assault. So naturally lights are the best scouts.
No lights are scout-only, though neither are any of them brawlers. To me at least guerrilla/fast strikers/hit and runs means you do not give the enemy a chance to fire back. Get in, do damage, get out. Currently in MWO lights can just run around without worrying too much about taking lots of damage. The good pilots are great at taking practically no damage.
Lights should be hit and run strikers.
Mediums should be the brawlers.
Heavies should be heavy weapons support.
Assaults should be...well assaults (or tanks, which in MWO they are not even close).

Imperius, on 08 September 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Guerrilla Warfare: Wars fought with hit-and-run tactics by small groups against an invader

Hmmm. I don't see in the definition anywhere it saying stays out in open and circle strafing without consequence, thanks for helping prove my point.

Guerrilla Warfare suggest lights should have to play smart and use cover and watch their surroundings. Pretty much the same as a scout except they attack when it's smart. That is not the kind of play I see coming out of 90% of the lights in this game.




Just posted the same thing you just said and then saw your post.

I was not refuting the OP's entire post. I was refuting his assertion they are merely scouts. I have proved they aren't.

The fact that most lights do the circle of death thing is not something I am interested in defending. I don't really like how they tend to hug people and yes, I would like collisions back once they're working well. That would kill the hugging more than anything else.

[stjobe]

Imperius, on 08 September 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

stjobe

I thought you were "done reading" my posts?

Imperius, on 08 September 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

you're oblivious to the imbalance in the game and you're trying to defend what little broken advantage you have because once it's gone so is your "elite status" you keep giving yourself will go with it.

Hardly. I have quite a firm grasp on my "status", and it's far from "elite". I'm an experienced light pilot, an okay medium pilot, a so-so heavy pilot, and an atrocious assault pilot. I can walk off the field with zero kills in my Founder Atlas, that's how skilled I am as an assault pilot. And still I drop in it from time to time and try to improve.

Incidentally, I have little issue with lights when I'm in my Atlas; perhaps it's from knowing intimately how the other side lives.

However, I've been here for over a year, and I've seen the balance shift to and fro; from Small Laser 400XL Awesomes and 200kph trollmandos to the more current poptarts and 2xPPC/Gauss. Never, as in not once, have lights been the dominating factor on the battlefield. Not even in the 3L heyday were they what decided battles; that has always been the heavies and assaults. To argue that "lights are getting out of hand" is plain silly; last time anyone took any measurements, lights were 11% of all 'mechs (over about 750 matches). That's an under-representation of 14 percentage points; most of those were found in an over-representation of assaults and heavies.

And apart from when the broken, grief-prone knockdown mechanic made bumper cars out of Dragons and every team had a designated hitter has it been easier to take out lights than it is right now.

The concept isn't hard to grasp: If you have troubles taking out lights look at yourself first; is your build suitable for fighting lights? Is there something in your skill-set you could improve? Something in your tactics? Were you, in fact, outplayed by a more skilled opponent? If so, tell him "gg" and think of a way to counter his moves next time.

You have to understand that one-on-one any 'mech can and should be able to take out the other; it doesn't matter if it's a light vs assault, medium vs heavy, assault vs assault - it comes down to player skill, and that's how it should be. It is, as I've been hitting you over the head with, a PvP game. Player skill is what should count, not weight class or armour tonnage or weapons loadout.

That's why I don't like these kinds of threads; they all sound like "nerf rock, paper is fine, said scissors". It's not even that I really care about whether we have collisions or knockdowns; I've played with them before and I am happy to do so again (if knockdowns aren't as grief-prone as they were in CB). It's just that your OP came complete with "no-skill lights" and the regular "waah, waah, it killed me, nerf it!" hyperbole, like "all light-killing weapons have been nerfed", "lights can run through the whole enemy team without taking damage" and so on and so forth. Those things are not true, and arguing changes to game balance from untrue, unfounded, and overstated arguments just ****** me off.

Imperius, on 08 September 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

but not be able to run though a whole team as standard practice.

Here we go again; this just doesn't happen unless the whole enemy team is asleep at the wheel, or so bad they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

Please don't make these kinds of hyperbolic arguments; anyone that's ever dropped in a light knows them to be untrue and nothing you say after that can be taken seriously. Which is a shame, because I'd love to discuss the to be or not to be of collisions, knock-downs, melee, and DFA; but I can't have a discussion with someone who is arguing from false premises.

[Imperius]

Scratx, on 08 September 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

I was not refuting the OP's entire post. I was refuting his assertion they are merely scouts. I have proved they aren't.

The fact that most lights do the circle of death thing is not something I am interested in defending. I don't really like how they tend to hug people and yes, I would like collisions back once they're working well. That would kill the hugging more than anything else.

If you even read half my posts I do say they should be able to attack, but again you're splitting hairs. They are scouts that attack not BRAWL. I really don't even understand why you posted anything at this point. In guerrilla warfare you "scout" and then attack. So quit wasting my time cause you're not even making sense, what are your trying to even argue about?

[YueFei]

Man he runs an Atlas with STD260. He decided to cram as many tons of GUN! on that mech as he could. If someone gets up close and into his rear arc, he deserves to die. With a mech that slow I think even a slower Medium could get and stay in rear arc permanently.

[YueFei]

Imperius, on 08 September 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

If you even read half my posts I do say they should be able to attack, but again you're splitting hairs. They are scouts that attack not BRAWL. I really don't even understand why you posted anything at this point. In guerrilla warfare you "scout" and then attack. So quit wasting my time cause you're not even making sense, what are your trying to even argue about?

Heh, so many people in this thread trying to help you improve, offering advice, even offering to drop with you into matches, but you just don't get it.


If you carry this attitude into your real life activities (and I'm pretty sure you do), you will fail. You will fail at life. I've met people like you before, it is a waste of time trying to help someone like you.

[Sadist Cain]

Alistair Winter, on 07 September 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

The way the game works right now, light mechs should be equal to heavy mechs and assault mechs.

This is the ******* problem right here.

"Role warfare" ...********

[Imperius]

Imperius, on 07 September 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

With the lack of collisions and rampant nerfs to all weapons that efficiently kills a light mech the game has become a joke, and ECM is still OP as day one. Congrats on fixing the HSR, now can we get some collisions? When I see a light run into 50 things to circle me and I hit one rock and stop I see a huge issue. What skill is involved in this kind of play? I mean really tell me? when you have 4 lights do this might as well ALt+F4 and go youtube or play a better game. All I see it buff after buff to a light mech. THEY ARE SCOUTS!!! NOT BRAWLERS LIKE YOU HAVE MADE THEM PGI. FIX THIS NOW!

Where did I say I have trouble killing a light in this post? I say they are too easy to brawl with and if I do see a pack of them might as well quit the game and drop in a new one.

If my atlas moved at 136kph and could climb all the terrain. Would you not be here to complain?

Negatives of an assault/heavy
-1 Speed
-2 Size (Easy Target)
-3 Torso Turn (some are better than others)
-4 Terrain (slopes and no walk areas)

Negatives of a light
-1 Armament (Lower DPS than an assault/heavy, but can do as much DMG)
-2 Not as much armor
(missing) -3 Collisions
(missing) -4 Ability to kill with any kind of lock on weapon while being out in the open. (Most lights run an ECM variant cause it's super OP)

[Imperius]

YueFei, on 08 September 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Heh, so many people in this thread trying to help you improve, offering advice, even offering to drop with you into matches, but you just don't get it.


If you carry this attitude into your real life activities (and I'm pretty sure you do), you will fail. You will fail at life. I've met people like you before, it is a waste of time trying to help someone like you.

You meant to say there are many people in this thread telling me to aim better, and drop with them so they can "show me how it's done" What is not being addressed is collisions leveling out the imbalance right now. This isn't a skill issue it's a balance issue and people keep telling me it's skill. You can call it help, I will call it de-railing the topics about "COLLISIONS" and "ROLE WARFARE" and misdirecting my argument about balance to an argument about skill.

If you don't have a valid point to as of why or why not a form of collisions (aka a penalty for not watching where you run your super fast mech}. Then please don't post here anymore.

I'm not suggesting knockdowns comeback, but there should be a stun for running into {Scrap} at full speed.

[Wolfways]

YueFei, on 08 September 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Look up aerial dogfighting techniques, and look at the difference between a "one circle fight" and a "two circle fight". You want to turn the fight into a "one circle fight" if you are in the slower turning mech. You want to break away from the more agile mech's turn "post", rather than allowing him to keep you in his post.

I have no problem fighting lights. I know how to move to keep them in my sight as much as possible (assuming there's nothing to back up to) and i can hit them well enough.
The problem is, unless you are using a high alpha build the damage gets spread around the target and it takes way more time to kill them than it does for them to get through one armour section.

[Mehlan]

Imp,

How many elephants have you seen climb a tree and jump/hurdle a fence? You're running a mastadon, complaining because the bobcat can do things you can't. Different animals, BIG slow and massive vs small and agile.
The essence of your complaint is that you can't handle terrain like the lights can...deal with it, or by the same token should we see your mech fall on it's arse/face when you 'bump' something?

[Wolfways]

Scratx, on 08 September 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Actually, bolding the relevant OP part.







I was not refuting the OP's entire post. I was refuting his assertion they are merely scouts. I have proved they aren't.

The fact that most lights do the circle of death thing is not something I am interested in defending. I don't really like how they tend to hug people and yes, I would like collisions back once they're working well. That would kill the hugging more than anything else.

Fair enough

[Qrbaza]

stjobe, on 08 September 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Yes you are complaining that circling lights are "god mode" even though you can take on two at a time and win.


There is only one role in MWO currently, and that's "do as much damage as you can". Anyone claiming there are other roles either don't understand the XP/CB reward system or are lying.


"Circle around god mode" speaks volumes about your skills. If I try that against any semi-competent assault pilot, I die. Circling only works against bad pilots that haven't learned how to counter it.


Not against the bads, no. But against bads, no skill is ever needed no matter what weight class you're in. And as I said above, circling a competent assault is death, because once you're in front of their guns, they will hit and they will kill you.


It also doesn't pay. At all. Kills, assists (especially Savior assists) is what you want, and you don't get those by breaking off every engagement and letting others do the killing.


Circling only occurs in two situations: A bad light pilot or a bad assault pilot. In the case of the bad light, he'll soon be dead, and in the case of the bad assault, he'll soon be dead. Don't be a bad pilot.


And there's the rub. You're having a hard time hitting lights, so instead of trying to improve you come to the forums to whine and try to get lights nerfed. Grow a pair, look at how good pilots counter lights and try to do the same. It's not hard, you just have to accept that you're not the greatest MechWarrior alive first.


No, you fix "circle of death" by learning how to counter it; once you do, you'll never be bothered by circling lights ever again.

The main problem isn't that we don't have knockdowns, the main problem is we have a lot of pilots that run assaults with load-outs totally unsuited to fighting light 'mechs, with no experience or skill in fighting light 'mechs, that don't have any inclination to learn how to do just that, and no will to change their load-out, that come to the forums complaining lights are OP and should be nerfed.

That is a much, much greater problem than not having knockdowns.

I dont pilot assault mech i mainly pilot medium so yes i can handle them but most people in assaults cant. And i was refering the circle of deat god mode against assaults or slower heavies. I was not complaining at all since i dont really care but rather stating my oppinion on how things should work and how things curently are.

Im so amased how smartly stupid people are now days...

[Odins Fist]

COLLISIONS: If you can't avoid running into things while driving a car, then you have no business driving a car.
.
.
COLLISIONS: If you can't avoid running into things driving a fast light mech weighing 30 tons or more, then you have absolutely no business piloting a light mech... "END OF STORY"
.
.
COLLISIONS: If you can't avoid running into the slow lumbering legs of a huge assault mech and then being knocked down, then you deserve to be "CURBSTOMPED" by that assault mech, and any of his teammates that are in range to unload any combinations of alphas into you and rendering your mech into a smoking heep of noob.
(side note) Both Mechs should take an amount of damage, how much is debatable.
.
No discussion on knockdowns, if you have learned poor piloting skills from lack of collisions, then that's your fault.
If you can't handle driving a light, that's your problem, not mine.
.
If they fix the hit reg on lights and put knockdowns back in, then get ready for a "MONSOON" of tears from lights pilots that naively thought they were good pilots.. The truth stings a bit doesn't it..??

Edited by Odins Fist, 08 September 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Pyropete]

SpajN, on 07 September 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

whine

Says one of the light mech pilots..

Seriously though without listening to the whine portion of the post he does have a point. From the last time I played last september to now it looks like there are mostly lights now instead of Gauss mechs of yesteryear.

[Pyropete]

Wolfways, on 08 September 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I have no problem fighting lights. I know how to move to keep them in my sight as much as possible (assuming there's nothing to back up to) and i can hit them well enough.
The problem is, unless you are using a high alpha build the damage gets spread around the target and it takes way more time to kill them than it does for them to get through one armour section.

Wolfways, on 08 September 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I have no problem fighting lights. I know how to move to keep them in my sight as much as possible (assuming there's nothing to back up to) and i can hit them well enough.
The problem is, unless you are using a high alpha build the damage gets spread around the target and it takes way more time to kill them than it does for them to get through one armour section.

1v1 maybe, but the tactics that are being used is 4 or 5 v 1 and all of them are just running in circles because collision isn't an issue anymore. After coming back from having not played in over a year it's total heaven for me in a light mech because I am not flopping around.

Not to mention you can pretty much stand on a heavys foot and they can't bend down enough to shoot you, but that's a topic for another day.

[Eleshod]

I've stated it before and ill state it again 99.9% of the time you'll never even get close to bumping a good light mech. If he's circle strafing he gets to see you the ENTIRE time, so what do you think ill do as a competent light pilot when you try to lumber your big fat atlas into my strafe pattern.... I'M GOING TO COURSE CORRECT.

On top of that most good lights hit and run I know I sure do, 15 damage from 3 medium lasers centered on your back, then a slight spread of SSRM2's and ill be gone before you turn around.

Some food for thought. There is a reason why they usually send ground forces/smaller more agile units in with a main battle tank.

[Imperius]

Eleshod, on 08 September 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I've stated it before and ill state it again 99.9% of the time you'll never even get close to bumping a good light mech. If he's circle strafing he gets to see you the ENTIRE time, so what do you think ill do as a competent light pilot when you try to lumber your big fat atlas into my strafe pattern.... I'M GOING TO COURSE CORRECT.

On top of that most good lights hit and run I know I sure do, 15 damage from 3 medium lasers centered on your back, then a slight spread of SSRM2's and ill be gone before you turn around.

Some food for thought. There is a reason why they usually send ground forces/smaller more agile units in with a main battle tank.

Where did I state I'm tired of lights that know how to avoid running into things and fight need to get nerfed? I'm trying to understand what school some of you attended to learn to read. They need to all be fired cause they failed you.

I SAID THE PROBLEM WITH "MOST" LIGHTS RIGHT NOW IS THEY CAN RUN INTO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING WITH NO CONSEQUENCE, THAT IS THE ISSUE!

[Mehlan]

Imperius, on 08 September 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Where did I state I'm tired of lights that know how to avoid running into things and fight need to get nerfed? I'm trying to understand what school some of you attended to learn to read. They need to all be fired cause they failed you.

I SAID THE PROBLEM WITH "MOST" LIGHTS RIGHT NOW IS THEY CAN RUN INTO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING WITH NO CONSEQUENCE, THAT IS THE ISSUE!

If/When a mech runs into another mech...they take damage. 'Lights' or otherwise... I've even gotten a couple kills (and been killed) in just that manner.

...and your gripe comes down to that their speed and lack of weight allows them cross over or climb objects you cannot.
You are an elephant, the light is a cougar, a leopard.... a smaller, much more agile creature. Learn to adapt.