86 replies to this topic

[ShadowbaneX]

Ryokens leap, on 09 September 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

I have no issues with uac5 except for the unskilled who need a macro that totally eliminates the jam mechanic. If anyone can show me a video where a player can manually expend their total magazine of uac5 ammo and not jam then I'll stop whining, but until then uac5 macros should be outlawed.

Who needs a macro? Just hold down the fire button. You do far more DPS when hosing a target, even when it was a 25% chance to jam.

[Voivode]

Well, they took the jam chance from 25% to 15%, and honestly they might be a little too brutal. I'm picturing a compromise from how they used to be (Jam happy) and how they are now. Maybe 18-20% jam chance.

[Rhaythe]

Roughneck45, on 09 September 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

It does need to be changed. It is just too good.

I think this game will have balance when taking an AC10 isn't a bad idea.

Hey, I like my dual AC/10s...

Voivode, on 09 September 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Well, they took the jam chance from 25% to 15%, and honestly they might be a little too brutal. I'm picturing a compromise from how they used to be (Jam happy) and how they are now. Maybe 18-20% jam chance.

If that's all the change, then I'm fine. I agree with many of the voices here and think that the UAC5 is fine as is, but I'm okay with the jam rate being tweaked.

[Scav3ng3r]

Ryokens leap, on 09 September 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

I have no issues with uac5 except for the unskilled who need a macro that totally eliminates the jam mechanic. If anyone can show me a video where a player can manually expend their total magazine of uac5 ammo and not jam then I'll stop whining, but until then uac5 macros should be outlawed.

I chainfire my AC/5 with my UAC/5 and my UAC/5 jams maybe once every 2 matches or so.

[WarHippy]

ShadowbaneX, on 09 September 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

AC/20s are still very effective, it's just more difficult to use two of them on one mech right now.
ER PPCs are still very effective, it's just more difficult to use two of them on one mech right now.
Gauss Rifles are still very effective, it's just difficult to pair them with PPCs right now and people are bitching about the charge up mechanic.
Ultra AC/5s are still very effective, it's just stupidly easy to put a pair of them on a heavy or an assault, load it up with 7 or 8 tons of ammo and just go strolling out on to the battlefield and hold down the trigger and rack up 700+ damage.

Those things that got their "teeth kicked in" are still very powerful and useful weapons, PGI just made it so you can't grab several of them, stick 'em on a mech and be useful in all situations and at all ranges. Your Slippery Slope Fallacy that if they change the uAC we'll all be using SLs is, well, just that, a fallacy.

Right now the uAC/5 is very strong when used in pairs. I hope PGI can come up with something that will not just tone it down a bit, so that they're not overly strong, but also find a way of making the use of a single uAC/5 viable.

I would make a larger post, but there probably isn't much point. I will say though that making all the weapons only viable as one-off doesn't really seem like a lot of fun. It just adds needlessly complex loadouts that are jack of all trades master of none.

[oldradagast]

WarHippy, on 09 September 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I would make a larger post, but there probably isn't much point. I will say though that making all the weapons only viable as one-off doesn't really seem like a lot of fun. It just adds needlessly complex loadouts that are jack of all trades master of none.

Which, at this point, vastly increases the odds of this "solution" being implemented.

Somewhere along the line, it became bad for the game to be simple to play in a fun way - not to be confused with "simply to win by alpha striking."

[Nick Drezary]

Am I missing something or PGI will keep nerfing all weapons one by one until we will end up with MG/Flamer combo on the Atlases?

Edited by Nick Drezary, 09 September 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

oldradagast, on 09 September 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Which, at this point, vastly increases the odds of this "solution" being implemented.

Somewhere along the line, it became bad for the game to be simple to play in a fun way - not to be confused with "simply to win by alpha striking."

Well, they could buff the earnings for systematically dismantling an enemy mech and nerf the earnings for outright killing it. Then you'd *have* to more carefully pick apart your target if you want to make money. I still do that for the fun of it, but wouldn't mind making a little more money off it

[Dan Nashe]

Ac 20: 5 dps, 14 tons
Ac 10: 4 dps, 12 tons
Ac 5: 3.33 dps, 8 tons
Uac 5: 4.45 dps with macro, roughly 5 plus dps if you always double fire and just suck up jams.
Ignore that burst is better than sustained damage, where one uac5 is 9 dps
Ac 2: 4 dps

Ac 5 needs a bu ff, uac 5 needs a nerf.
I use a Ton of uac 5s, I did pre gauss nerf too.
just raise the uac 5 recycle time to 1.5, make jam chance lower if needed to balance.
Lower ac 5 to 1.25

Edited by DanNashe, 09 September 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

All of this {Scrap} doesn't affect the hardcore or the macro players. They have every work around in short order. For those of us getting by with bare bone computers and two button mouses we get slammed. It's impossible for casual and new players and if PGI can make it worse they will for some reason that defies any logic. I see now much longer wait times and failed to find matches and the same groups of guys over and over now. Seems like new and casual players have gotten PGI's message and beat feet too. Of course some apologist will be along shortly to counter anything I just wrote.

[ShadowbaneX]

WarHippy, on 09 September 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I would make a larger post, but there probably isn't much point. I will say though that making all the weapons only viable as one-off doesn't really seem like a lot of fun. It just adds needlessly complex loadouts that are jack of all trades master of none.

They don't need to only viable as one-offs. You can still use Gauss at close range, there's just a bit of a learning curve now. AC/20s can still do a lot of damage at beyond close range. ER PPCs are good for sniping but can hit targets in close.

As for complex? Good, sounds like fun. My latest mech uses an ER PPC for range, an LB-10/X for in close work backed up by SRMs and a couple of MLs. It's complex, effective and a hell of a lot of fun. To take the old joke BoatWarrior Online wasn't good for the game and it's good that PGI is getting people to mix things up.

Nick Drezary, on 09 September 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Am I missing something or PGI will keep nerfing all weapons one by one until we will end up with MG/Flamer combo on the Atlases?

Yes, the part where this is a Slippery Slope Fallacy much like WarHippy was making.

DanNashe, on 09 September 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Ac 5 needs a bu ff, uac 5 needs a nerf.
I use a Ton of uac 5s, I did pre gauss nerf too.
just raise the uac 5 recycle time to 1.5, make jam chance lower if needed to balance.
Lower ac 5 to 1.25

I would argue that increasing the time it takes to clear might be a better balance than increase jam chance.

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 09 September 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 September 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Well, the UAC is pretty brutal, but then again...isn't something always brutal?

I have definently seen a huge influx of UAC5 machines (heck I take out my Ilya WAY more often now), but I still hesitate to call a nerf. I want to see how things go for a while before I form an opinion on it. I will say this though, it definently isn't a weak loadout.

agreed it is but the most brutal weapon should really be the AC20 in a single mount, it should be feared, but because of the lax and open custom mechanic in mwo, things get nerfed because of min maxers

[Kibble]

Want to balance the uac5s? Make it fire two shots(double tap) with one mouse click and hold then have the cool down a bit higher than the ac5. With one single click you can shoot just one round. Makes sense to me.

[Hellcat420]

the problem with uac5's are that people are using macros with them to prevent jamming.

[ShadowbaneX]

Hellcat420, on 09 September 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

the problem with uac5's are that people are using macros with them to prevent jamming.

That might be a bit of a problem with the triple uAC builds, but for the paired uAC builds the problem is that, even with jamming, holding down the trigger does a disgusting amount of DPS.

[General Taskeen]

What did you people expect?

Its been said since Closed Beta that the UAC has an awful mechanic to balance around. Two Shells, same damage, better cool down, roll the dice jam? How does any of that make sense for balance? Or would people like to experience the insanity of UAC/10's or UAC/20's in this silly format?

And as far as "pugs" complaining, the UAC/5 has always been a "FOTM" due to its programming and exploitable by avoiding jams (but utilizing its good cool down) with macro's.

In all likeliness, the UAC changing is a GOOD THING, if its done right.

My guess is the following, at lease this is the most logical way to balance the UAC's,

- They may/should keep a "burst" mechanic as it is, (shooting two shells or whatever)
- The actual damage per shell should be much lower, like say 3 Damage (so 2 shells landing in the same spot would be 6 damage, not 10 as it is now, of course the "3" could be lower or raised to find a sweet spot for balance)
- Ammunition doubled or trippled to account for lower damage per shell
- JAMMING replaced by player skill mechanic not rolling dice mechanics (the weapon bar could show the gun itself "heating" up, the longer it is fired, when the bar reaches "too hot/critical" the gun jams)

Edited by General Taskeen, 09 September 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Nunspa]

Voivode, on 09 September 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Well, they took the jam chance from 25% to 15%, and honestly they might be a little too brutal. I'm picturing a compromise from how they used to be (Jam happy) and how they are now. Maybe 18-20% jam chance.

I use 3 on my illia.. trust me, they all jam.. alot.

I have 3 med laz specifically or that reason.

[WarHippy]

ShadowbaneX, on 09 September 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

They don't need to only viable as one-offs. You can still use Gauss at close range, there's just a bit of a learning curve now. AC/20s can still do a lot of damage at beyond close range. ER PPCs are good for sniping but can hit targets in close.

Accept that is what you are advocating. You talked about how they made it hard to use more than one ac/20, one erppc, and now you want them to make it so you can't use more than one uac/5. The list keeps getting bigger and the build options smaller. There needs to be a better way to balance things without making them worse or unfun to use.

ShadowbaneX, on 09 September 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

As for complex? Good, sounds like fun. My latest mech uses an ER PPC for range, an LB-10/X for in close work backed up by SRMs and a couple of MLs. It's complex, effective and a hell of a lot of fun. To take the old joke BoatWarrior Online wasn't good for the game and it's good that PGI is getting people to mix things up.

Complexity for the sake of complexity does not lead to good game design or fun game play. Complexity by itself can be great, but it shouldn't be the only thing that matters.

ShadowbaneX, on 09 September 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Yes, the part where this is a Slippery Slope Fallacy much like WarHippy was making.

It would only be a fallacy if it wasn't true. There has been a pattern to what they are doing one could take that pattern to its conclusion and see a game where nothing is worth using accept for weapons that are now considered lacking by comparison. So far their balancing has consisted predominantly of knocking things down as opposed to building things up. We will just have to see, but when the uac/5 gets hit with the nerf hammer I promise you we will see more threads like this complaining about the next weapon on the list people switch to.

Edited by WarHippy, 09 September 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[Andross Deverow]

ShadowbaneX, on 09 September 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

As someone that's been using uAC's since March, the change down to 15% was a strong buff. I've stopped playing my K2 because it was too easy to do 700+ damage per match. Several of them going into the 900-1000 damage range.

The Ghost heat change effectively killed the dual AC/20 builds. The PPC heat change and the Gauss charge was effective and it killed the dual PPC Gauss. The next seemingly stupidly effective yet easy-to-use builds seems to be lower alpha damage, but much higher sustained DPS. Dual Ultras alone manage just over 9 DPS. Add in 4 MLs and you can briefly manage up to 14 DPS. Against that kind of fire power even an Atlas will be cored through it's CT in under 10 seconds.

There's also the cockpit shake on top of it, although the ultras aren't the worst for that. The 4-6 light missile builds (Streaks & LRM5s) do that worse and can also manage a decently high DPS and have the added effect of ensuring your opponent has a rather difficult time actually figuring out where you are.

Facepalm all you want, paired uAC/5s are one of the stronger, easy to use builds and it's not uncommon to find 3-4 mechs running them in the average PUG match. That's a sign that it's the next flavour of the month.

That said, using a single uAC/5 isn't that effective and I hope whatever feature they implement doesn't hinder them, and actually I hope it improves them somewhat. I'm still hoping for the ability to have an alternate fire mode for ultras. One mode single shot, no chance of jamming. Other mode always fires two shots, one immediately after another, but can jam. Increase the cooldown time to 1.5 seconds. Also increase the time it takes to clear a jam.

Were back to the community whiners no matter how you look at it. Multiple UAC5's should scare the **** out of ya. Its what they do. Now with that said after we see the nerf bat hit them with some lame idea like they did to gauss whats next? Which weapon next? After people start using it because whiners got PGI to make UAC5 unuseable or not worth the tonnage and ammo to use.

They already nailed all energy weapons with ghost heat, missle patterns just plain suck. Im thinking they are going to make us use rocks n ****. I mean seriously, just keep nerfing the hell outta weapons to make a minority of whiners happy? God!! were doomed when clan tech arrives because our weapons will be even more useless as all of them will have been nerfed into oblivion.

Regards

[Dan Nashe]

Ryokens leap, on 09 September 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

I have no issues with uac5 except for the unskilled who need a macro that totally eliminates the jam mechanic. If anyone can show me a video where a player can manually expend their total magazine of uac5 ammo and not jam then I'll stop whining, but until then uac5 macros should be outlawed.

The thing is, with the new lower jam chance, you actually do more dps doublefiring and sucking up the jam. Not to mention the advantage of 5 seconds dodging fire and twisting.
So the no jam macro is like the ac 2 chainfire macro. Fun. But not actually good.