86 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Arctourus, on 09 September 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

wonder if you can create a macro that will constantly charge the gauss so it's perpetually ready or nearly ready to fire.....

No, you can't. Macro's can't do anything you couldn't do manually with good timing. The macro could charge and hold as long as it can, then recharge, but you'd still have the weapon constantly "ready to fire - charging - ready to fire - charging".

Re macro's to stop UAC5 jamming: Red herring.

If you're using a UAC5 macro to stop jamming, you're doing less damage than you could be.

Even before the reduction of jam rate, UAC5's did more damage over time just holding down the trigger and double firing - even counting the down time from jams.

Now? It's completely stupid to fire them slowly and not jam. Instead, hold the trigger down, do far higher DPS (even counting jams), and if your weapons do jam? Use that time to twist defensively. In short: Macros to prevent UAC jamming are entirely the province of players who haven't bothered to work out the math of how freaking amazing UAC's doublefiring is.

---

There are three factors to consider: Burst damage, damage over time, and Time on Target requirement. Burst damage is always more important than damage over time, and required Time on Target is a bad thing (it exposes your CT to incoming fire).


Ultra mode grants twice the burst DPS of regular mode, and slightly more damage over time.

Ultra mode grants 5 second windows reducing required Time on Target.

This combination allows you to burst hard, potentially destroying a target before it can do significant damage to you, and it allows you to still do more damage over time while twisting to spread incoming damage. A non-jamming macro allows you to pointlessly do less damage up front and less damage over time, while requiring 100% ToT.

[Edustaja]

The random dice roll has to go. It's not good design in a multiplayer.

[ShadowbaneX]

WarHippy, on 09 September 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Accept that is what you are advocating. You talked about how they made it hard to use more than one ac/20, one erppc, and now you want them to make it so you can't use more than one uac/5. The list keeps getting bigger and the build options smaller. There needs to be a better way to balance things without making them worse or unfun to use.
Complexity for the sake of complexity does not lead to good game design or fun game play. Complexity by itself can be great, but it shouldn't be the only thing that matters.

It would only be a fallacy if it wasn't true. There has been a pattern to what they are doing one could take that pattern to its conclusion and see a game where nothing is worth using accept for weapons that are now considered lacking by comparison. So far their balancing has consisted predominantly of knocking things down as opposed to building things up. We will just have to see, but when the uac/5 gets hit with the nerf hammer I promise you we will see more threads like this complaining about the next weapon on the list people switch to.

And yet, a single AC/20, ER PPC is fine. Hell, you can still use two Gauss Rifles & PPCs, they just have other draw backs. LB-10/Xs still do work, as do Large Lasers. They're just a penalty to using them. I don't want them to make dual uAC/5s, that'd make me sad, it's my first build and I still love it, but it is too strong and they could use a toning down.

I'm hoping for dual fire modes with a lengthening of the time it takes to unjam the weapons. Ultras will still be scary, but there's a chance that things can go wrong. Also, single uAC/5s do need a buff of some nature when solo-mounted.

Also, it is very much a fallacy, "if you nerf the uAC/5s then all we'll be using is Small Lasers"? Pretty much a textbook definition of the slippery slope.

[Grimlox]

I completely agree with Wintersdark above.

I would also like to add that a big part of the reason UAC5's are being looked at next is the fact they got a buff right around the same time the 2PPC/Gauss nerf came in. There was nothing wrong with the effectiveness of UAC/5's when they still had 25% jam rate, they did not need a buff.

You can't honestly look at Uac/5's and AC/5's and say the two are balanced. Ultras have a lot of benefits and their only downside (jamming) is actually a benefit when you consider how it allows you to twist and spread damage before the next massive burst of DPS comes out.

[Wintersdark]

Edustaja, on 09 September 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

The random dice roll has to go. It's not good design in a multiplayer.

This.

Random mechanics like that are simply not fun, and this is why: They create a situation where a player can win or lose based entirely on luck instead of skill. While that may be ok for the firing player, it's much less fun for the victim.

The old analogy is this:

Assume a simple PVP game where you have 100 health, attack once per second, and three weapons:
One hits 100% of the time, for 10 damage. This weapon does 10 damage per second, and will kill an enemy player in 10 seconds.
One hits 50% of the time, for 20 damage. This weapon also does 10 damage per second averaged, and will kill an enemy player in 5+ seconds. 5+, because it could take any amount of time.
One hits 10% of the time, for 100 damage. This weapon also does 10 damage per second averaged, and will kill an enemy player in 1+ seconds. Again, it's possible for you to never kill an enemy player.

All of these are "fair". But the later two weapon are increasingly luck based and lead to worse gameplay overall. Nobody wants to be randomly one-shot when they approach an enemy player, it's just not fun. And a victory against such a player who simply fails to hit due to random dice rolls may offer an element of "Hah! So there!" but still leads to a situation where even when you beat the player, you can't necessarily claim it was because you where more skilled, but rather just because the RNG gods favoured you.


Randomness, in a multiplayer PvP game, is just bad. Period.

[Carrioncrows]

A single Ultra deals 9 DPS at double rate of fire.

x2 of them for 18 DPS.

When 3 of them can get off 175 rounds of ammo ( 875 dmg) in 8-13 seconds. That is a bit much.

[ShadowSpirit]

All they have to do to balance ACs is tinker with:

1) reload time -- slow them down, lower DPS

2) range -- AC/20 shouldn't be effective much beyond 270. Certainly not beyond double its range. I've seen AC/20s being lobbed across a map and connect for non-trivial damage.

.... if they do anything beyond that they're falling victim to their tendency to over-complicate things. This game doesn't need a steeper learning curve right now.
...........

There is such a huge disparity right now with weapons in terms of their effectiveness and I am not convinced the PPC/Guass nerf helped things. We'll see what happens to ACs but right now:

The ERPPC is dead. Too much heat.

PPCs are too slow. They took the best balanced weapon and really gutted it. The no damage within minimum range was a good thing. I don't think they needed to change heat or velocity. The guass charge already served to decouple the two weapons ... more than that was overkill.

The death of the PPC now brings UAC/5 and AC boats into superiority. Lasers are just terrible in virtually every way. They definitely need to consider reducing beam durations and deliver more damage faster.

A hunchback 4p getting into range should be scary as hell. It's just laughable right now. Overheats non-stop. Heat scale is still wacked and virtually EVERY BUILD requires double heatsinks.

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 09 September 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Pastor Priest, on 09 September 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

I'm now picturing mechs with supersoakers.

No way bro. that would be way OP. internals wouldn't stand a chance.

[Roughneck45]

What if they changed the chance to jam to a chance to get an extra shot?

Sure, it would still be random, but it would be a lot more reliable without being overly dominant.

Although, it still wouldn't have "it's own role" like PGI is going for, it would just be a better AC5.

[One Medic Army]

WarHippy, on 09 September 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

The devs have already said they will be taking another look at u/ac5's so be ready for the incoming nerf bat. In fact they have also said they will be looking at adding more "unique" weapon mechanics like they did with gauss so that nothing fires the same way or at the same time.

Which from where I stand is a good thing, makes managing multiple weapons systems take a bit of skill, and also makes weapons feel distinctive.
Right now we just have hitscan weapons, projectiles with travel time, and the aforementioned projectiles but with shotgun spread.

[Byzan]

Im still not sure what to think of the UAC/05 now

at first I thought it was overpowered then I had a run that went like this:

1shot, Jam, 1 shot, Jam, 1 shot Jam, 2 shots, Jam, 3 shots, Jam 2 shots, jam

without a word of a lie I had 3 games I could not get more than 3 shots off without a jam and constantly had 1 shot jams. I thought it had been given a stealth nerf.

then every once in a while you get a nice jam free run and rip stuff to shreds and enemy mechs run for cover like roaches when the light goes on.

Its true one on its own isn't too much of a threat but when you can fit 2 they are really powerful, 3 is just sick. Probably the reason the Muromets is generally considered the best mech in the game.

overall the changes dont make sense to me. I mean 25% to 15% is a MASSIVE change, its not a small adjustment... And the Gausse and PPC changes were massive nerfs as well not small adjustments.

Just does not seem like smart balancing to me.

like the machine gun changes, they went from gimp to overpowered and back to gimp again.

Edited by Byzan, 09 September 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[WarHippy]

One Medic Army, on 09 September 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Which from where I stand is a good thing, makes managing multiple weapons systems take a bit of skill, and also makes weapons feel distinctive.
Right now we just have hitscan weapons, projectiles with travel time, and the aforementioned projectiles but with shotgun spread.

Is it skill, or is it pointless complexity for the sake of complexity? Does distinctive feel mean silly mechanics? I mean when I go to the firing range I want a distinctive feel when I fire different weapons so I guess I will start touching my nose while standing on one foot so it feels different. Effectiveness be damned.

[CancersCincar]

B-But I use the U/AC5 on my Cicada-3M before it was "OP"

[Angel of Annihilation]

ShadowbaneX, on 09 September 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

That said, using a single uAC/5 isn't that effective and I hope whatever feature they implement doesn't hinder them, and actually I hope it improves them somewhat. I'm still hoping for the ability to have an alternate fire mode for ultras. One mode single shot, no chance of jamming. Other mode always fires two shots, one immediately after another, but can jam. Increase the cooldown time to 1.5 seconds. Also increase the time it takes to clear a jam.

This is the major problem. Every time they fix it so that mulitples of a given weapon aren't OPed, they break it so that using a single of that weapons is totally useless. The UAC/5 was case in point. It was virtually useless as your single Ballastic weapon because it jammed way too often and was unreliable. The 15% rate still jams often but now at least you can usually get 4-5 shots off minimum before it jams.

It anything they just need to tone down the rate of fire a bit, not mess with the jamming again.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Byzan, on 09 September 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

overall the changes dont make sense to me. I mean 25% to 15% is a MASSIVE change, its not a small adjustment... And the Gausse and PPC changes were massive nerfs as well not small adjustments.

Just does not seem like smart balancing to me.

like the machine gun changes, they went from gimp to overpowered and back to gimp again.

I have to agree even though I think the UAC/5 changes are good and necessary, at least for single gun users. PGI has made some pretty sweeping changes that don't feel much like they are attempting to balance the weapon. Rather is seems they want to balance the usage of the weapon. For example, if 70% of the people in game like using PPCs, Lets screw them up until onl;y 30% of the people us them, then all the people who whine about them will quit whining. This is kind of a brute force approach that fixes nothing.

I am also preplexed where they get their numbers from. For example, the PPC and ER PPC in Closed Beta did have 10 and 15 heat and no one used them. They then "balance" them to a lower heat, we use them for almost a year, then within the last 2-3 months people start to complain about them, so they take them back to full circle and give them 10 and 15 heat respectively again. I just don't understand how they weren't balanced at 10 and 15 heat before and now suddenly they are now and don't give me that hit detection BS as the issue. Every weapon back then had hit detection issues or something else just as bad wrong with them. People primarily didn't use PPC and ER PPCs because of heat.

The point is that we shouldn't be seeing sweeping changes to any weapons by this point. At most it should be very small increments to get them dialed in. Instread it almost feels like PGI is blindfolding themselves and playing pin-the-tail-on-the-mech and where ever the tail gets stuck, that is the value there are going to use for weapons balance.

[Royalewithcheese]

I don't think there's too much point in worrying about UAC/5 balance in anything but the short term, because they're going to get a complete redesign pretty soon. Hopefully to eliminate the dice rolls

[One Medic Army]

WarHippy, on 09 September 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Is it skill, or is it pointless complexity for the sake of complexity? Does distinctive feel mean silly mechanics? I mean when I go to the firing range I want a distinctive feel when I fire different weapons so I guess I will start touching my nose while standing on one foot so it feels different. Effectiveness be damned.

Charge up on the gauss is about as much of a "for the sake of being different" as I'd want to go.
Lasers are a good example of different mechanics, different feel, but not complex for the sake of complexity.

If you want to go for most complex weapon system to use properly right now, it'd have to be LRMs.
To use them effectively requires knowing the local terrain, knowing the target's motion, fitting yourself with artemis/TAG/spotter friend, and then someone has to hold a laser pointer on the guy until the missiles finally hit.

PPCs and Gauss, the way they were, were very easy to use, in fact almost the easiest weapons to use.
PPCs hardly had to be led with how fast they traveled, and Gauss worked at every range up to 1000m with no requirements to watch heat.

Aiming is just one of many skills that can be involved in a combat game.

[DarkDevilDancer]

The problem is since gauss change everyone has switched to uac5 all I see in my bracket now are uac boats, now I don't have an issue with people using them by any means I do myself.

My worry is they'll see how popular it's become and over nerf it, it was jamming too much before the change, now it jams less than needed to make it balanced but we don't want the changing the chance so it's unreasonably high.

[IceCase88]

To Whom It May Concern:

Per your requests, we have nerfed and changed all weapons charateristics in an effort to anticipate future QQing. The new weapons targetting and firing will be similar to kicking field goals in Madden Football or free kicks in EA Sports FIFA soccer/football. The changes implemented are to ensure no one has fun and makes the game barely playable. Your QQ requests have been honored. Enjoy... or do not enjoy.

Best Regards,

The QQ Crowd

[Bhael Fire]

Roughneck45, on 09 September 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

It does need to be changed. It is just too good.

I think this game will have balance when taking an AC10 isn't a bad idea.

It's not too good...individually, that is. It's only really powerful when boated with 3 or more of them. Individually or even with 2 of them, they are not that powerful. Good...but not powerful. I think most of QQ about them is coming those that got their butts hurt real bad by the triple configs.

And there's nothing wrong with AC/10. I have a couple AC/10 builds that do exceptionally well.