81 replies to this topic

[Draconis March]

ShinVector, on 12 September 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

SPLS fight at the 4min mark: 250ms + non-functioning HSR (this was the past, slightly better now) + 1v1 lights.
It sucks.

Your shots were literally all over your targets. You seldom hit the same component more than once, and even more seldom was your reticle kept on that spot for the duration of the shot. Hardly any sort of anecdotal evidence that they "suck."

Mutaroc, on 12 September 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Agree with you Peef, It is a bit too risky to have to be at -90 mts from your target... Plus streak became super popular after the buff to 2.5. So yup.

In my JR7-D i have only 3 med L and 2x SSMR2 and fell in love with that build. I can shoot from away, rarely overheat and have the SSMR2 to take care of light mechs or for the brawl.

Do you like your own posts on Facebook too?

[Atillius]

I recently Mastered my Jenners and figured I'd give the 2ML, 4SPL a go. I just wasn't getting the damage I was with 6MLs with the way I run my Jenner. I have an XL300 on my hull and 3 JJs. Instead of running into the mob, I prefer to get behind them and take well aimed alphas at their backs. I usually get 2 off before they notice and all I need it to land 1 more full or 2 partitals and it will cause them to pop. I tried the hit and run of SPLs aiming at legs, but it didn't pan out well. I am not one to counter other lights, I go for Missile Mechs and Heavies. I will keep on trying the 4SPL/2ML combo though, I think I need to change my tactics though.

[Asmosis]

Trade one of your med lasers or SPL's for a tag so you can wrack up tag cbill bonuses.

I'm a big fan of the SPL for 1v1 engagements, but you dont often find a lone heavy mech that you can pull apart.

2-3 MPL's would probably be better than 5-6 SPL's due to the short duration and 2x range, lower alpha isnt *that* important when you reach your heat cap after a couple volleys anyway.

You could always try going to the extreme of 1x ER LL + 4 regular SL's (maybe tag as well, depends how much armor/speed/DHS your prepared to sacrifice)

[ShinVector]

Draconis March, on 18 September 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Your shots were literally all over your targets. You seldom hit the same component more than once, and even more seldom was your reticle kept on that spot for the duration of the shot. Hardly any sort of anecdotal evidence that they "suck."


Do you like your own posts on Facebook too?

It seems your EGO has failed to under full that this sentence actually means.

Quote

SPLS fight at the 4min mark: 250ms + non-functioning HSR (this was the past, slightly better now) + 1v1 lights.
It sucks.

Show me some video evidence how great you are 1v1 lights for your 90m small pulse ?

It seems you an unhappy that people are commenting that your 'amazing' small pulse idea is not so, amazing after all..
That's because ANY decent light pilot would have tried the small pulse configuration a long long time ago..

Most will come to the same conclusion... The range of 90m is TOO short for you to be able to attack while taking as little damage as possible !
Hit and run, harassment does not work and you are likely to get blown up due to seismic.

Do get it that light mechs are not meant for brawling ?

[Draconis March]

ShinVector, on 18 September 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

It seems your EGO has failed to under full that this sentence actually means.

I don't know what this sentence is supposed to be saying. Needs more grammar.

ShinVector, on 18 September 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Show me some video evidence how great you are 1v1 lights for your 90m small pulse ?

It seems you an unhappy that people are commenting that your 'amazing' small pulse idea is not so, amazing after all.

You clearly didn't read my original post. It's making your overly defensive reaction look even more incredibly silly than it already does.

[Brenden]

Six Small Pulse Lasers?
Why not Six Medium Pulse Lasers?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...82ea8a2f067bcf3
There she Blows.

[ShinVector]

Draconis March, on 18 September 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

I don't know what this sentence is supposed to be saying. Needs more grammar.


You clearly didn't read my original post. It's making your overly defensive reaction look even more incredibly silly than it already does.

"Has anyone else tried this build before? How'd it work for you?"
You create a post asking the opinion of others and yet you ignore the comments from the various decent light pilots here on the flaws of SPLS.

Instead you would rather criticise people on less relevant topics.
I know your type now.. In any case you have been marked.

Edited by ShinVector, 19 September 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[Kaijin]

If there's any mech class with a role in MWO, it is the light. Because it is the fastest (and the most mobile if it's got jump jets), keeping track of the enemy is a primary role. That's scouting. Sniping from long range with an ER PPC is not scouting. Packing so many medium lasers that you'll shut down in the middle of a dance with another light mech is not scouting. The weaponry needed on a light mech is what you can take out another light mech with, as that is the other primary role - Eliminating enemy light mechs. If both of these have been taken care of, then you can mix it up with the bigger mechs.

SSRM-2s have been buffed. SSRM-2s are very useful against light mechs. Put whatever you want on your Jenner F and Jenner K to grind to elite so you can master the JR7-D

[Sable Dove]

I don't see why people would say it's not good. 6SPL has nearly the same DPS as 6ML, but is far more sustainable, and easier to concentrate that damage on a specific component.

Against other lights, at least in the typical dogfighting game, it's incredibly powerful.
Against heavier mechs, it requires support from your team, although one-on-one, it can take down just about anything that isn't boating streaks.

Yeah, the short range is a risk, but dogfighting with other lights is frequently at that range anyways, and with your speed and jumpjets, it's pretty easy to get in range of bigger mechs if you're not dumb about it.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

SPLs are situational. As soon as u are noticed by a decent pilot yr in for some trouble. The Way of the SPL-F is to go unnoticed. You are a fox, not a tiger.

Edited by Brown Hornet, 19 September 2013 - 03:13 AM.

[ShinVector]

Sable Dove, on 19 September 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

I don't see why people would say it's not good. 6SPL has nearly the same DPS as 6ML, but is far more sustainable, and easier to concentrate that damage on a specific component.

Against other lights, at least in the typical dogfighting game, it's incredibly powerful.
Against heavier mechs, it requires support from your team, although one-on-one, it can take down just about anything that isn't boating streaks.

Yeah, the short range is a risk, but dogfighting with other lights is frequently at that range anyways, and with your speed and jumpjets, it's pretty easy to get in range of bigger mechs if you're not dumb about it.

Like Hornet said:

That's the thing... Huge risk.. As another light pilot.. If I see the other light only has SPLS... I going try my best to stay at range least 200m or more where his SPLS does 0 damage while my Mediums does full.. Also.. you don't need 6 mediums when 5 is to 4 is just fine.
And you lose the ability to backstab from a distance with SPLS... A jenner must be able to do this..

[Atillius]

After finding and reading this thread, I took all the advice and went forward with all the Jenner Hulls. I have had amazing results as I learn to play better. As of late, I chain fire my MLs, unless I slip behind the heavies who are pre occupied with what's in front of them. I have found that 6 MLs, in alpha, at the back of even an Atlas will kill it in 3 vollies. I usually, get 2 vollies off before they realize I am there, and the last I get by using the Jenners manuverability to stay at there rear. On harassing tactics, I just chain fire to be a pest and jump over the heads of the opponents, hoping they shoot each other.

So much fun!

EDIT....

....After further review...I must say since I have switched to all SPLs (6) on my F-C and 4 on everything else, it fits my play style since I learned how to brawl better. As other's have stated, its eats legs up and causes enough butt pain to the target. I am constantly drawing half the opposing team to me and I am killing Cats or taking them out of their rain of death tactics, quite fast. Much fun!

[Szegedin]

Atillius, on 19 September 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

After finding and reading this thread, I took all the advice and went forward with all the Jenner Hulls. I have had amazing results as I learn to play better. As of late, I chain fire my MLs, unless I slip behind the heavies who are pre occupied with what's in front of them. I have found that 6 MLs, in alpha, at the back of even an Atlas will kill it in 3 vollies. I usually, get 2 vollies off before they realize I am there, and the last I get by using the Jenners manuverability to stay at there rear. On harassing tactics, I just chain fire to be a pest and jump over the heads of the opponents, hoping they shoot each other.

So much fun!

EDIT....

....After further review...I must say since I have switched to all SPLs (6) on my F-C and 4 on everything else, it fits my play style since I learned how to brawl better. As other's have stated, its eats legs up and causes enough butt pain to the target. I am constantly drawing half the opposing team to me and I am killing Cats or taking them out of their rain of death tactics, quite fast. Much fun!

Had my best matches in a 6 Small Pulse 7F - but it becomes less of a viable build as your start hitting more experienced opponents. I still prefer it, and find that the survivability of a fully armored Jenner is pretty high even if you're dicking about at 90m.

Don't know if stats mean much (or even if these are any good) but here's mine for a 7F, ~ 92% of these matches are with 6 Small Pulse Lasers.


JR7-F Matches:659 Wins:360 Losses:299 Ratio:1.20 Kills:542 Deaths:329 Ratio:1.65 Damage:155,314


It's my best W/L ratio among my frequently used mechs....but not the best K/D or anything. I attribute the W/L to how irresistible it is for an enemy team to shoot at a Jenner which is right up in their faces...where they might ignore one which is 270m away. (I guess that's the whole point of staying at range..) And if they're shooting at me they're not shooting at my teammates. But I'm new here < 2 months in, so I likely don't know as much as I think I do.

Personally, I can put down 40.78 points of damage from 2-SPL (6) alphas into one section of an enemy in the time I can put out 1-30 point ML (6) alpha which hits 2-3 sections of my target. This is most likely just reflective of my {Scrap} aiming skills with ML's and you can't ignore the fact that a Veteran Jenner pilot is going to be putting out their ML damage repeatedly from range and taking little to no retaliation.

But for me, I do have more fun with 6 SPLs.

Yet its pretty clear short range brawling will never be the smartest or most competitive way to run a 7F, for the reasons the vets here have outlined very thoroughly, both on this thread and others.

If you dropped with a premade sporting your SPL's you'd probably get laughed out of the queue...but I've yet to try that scene.

I have ended up in 2 PUG matches with PEEF_S, one time we won, one time we lost. Both times he called me out for, not doing my job because I was brawling. That's fair enough, but I would appreciate it if the more experienced folks around here don't overly insist on there being only one way to play random pickup matches.

Edited by Szegedin, 19 September 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Draconis March]

ShinVector, on 19 September 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

You create a post asking the opinion of others and yet you ignore the comments from the various decent light pilots here on the flaws of SPLS.

Show me where I did that. And no, dismissing your video on the grounds of bad aim doesn't count as "ignoring the comments from the various decent light pilots here on the flaws of SPLS." The fact is that I did no such thing.

ShinVector, on 19 September 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

Instead you would rather criticise people on less relevant topics.

I'd say your aim in the video you posted that's supposed to constitute as evidence for how bad SPLs are is pretty relevant.

ShinVector, on 19 September 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

I know your type now.. In any case you have been marked.

Oh boy. I'm scared now.

Szegedin, on 19 September 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Both times he called me out for, not doing my job because I was brawling. That's fair enough, but I would appreciate it if the more experienced folks around here don't overly insist on there being only one way to play random pickup matches.

Yeah. It's a pug. Don't know why you'd expect someone to do their "job" when they're not in a premade group that they actually have a job to do for.

Edited by Draconis March, 19 September 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[Szegedin]

Draconis March, on 19 September 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Yeah. It's a pug. Don't know why you'd expect someone to do their "job" when they're not in a premade group that they actually have a job to do for.

Well, from the vids and guides he's posted he just wants people to be better players, so I shouldn't whine about it tbh.

[PEEFsmash]

Szegedin, on 19 September 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

I have ended up in 2 PUG matches with PEEF_S, one time we won, one time we lost. Both times he called me out for, not doing my job because I was brawling. That's fair enough, but I would appreciate it if the more experienced folks around here don't overly insist on there being only one way to play random pickup matches.

Draconis March, on 19 September 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Yeah. It's a pug. Don't know why you'd expect someone to do their "job" when they're not in a premade group that they actually have a job to do for.

The way I treat the game is that I want to win every game I play. I'm not insisting there is only one way to play random pug games, but I do let people know when they aren't contributing to wins (and that means I'm ASSUMING that the goal of our team is to win, which doesn't seem like that crazy of an assumption to me). I want to win, I'll do as much as I can, but obviously I can't always do it myself.

The long and short of it is that small pulse lasers offer MAYBE a tiny advantage within 90 meters, but even then the advantage is slim or none, because in order to get that advantage you have to face your opponent more often due to the quicker recycle time.

So if I was going to give Small Pulse Lasers a 10 under 90m, I would give Medium lasers a 9.5. So Small Pulse lasers have a tiny advantage at that range maybe, but the advantage is at the LAST PLACE YOU EVER WANT TO BE as a light. Under 90m is so incredibly dangerous in any situation other than 1v1.

But then at 100 meters I'd give Small Pulse an 8, and Medium lasers a 9.5.

Then at 150 meters Small Pulse is a 3 and Medium Lasers are a 9.5

Then at 200 meters Small Pulse is 0 (absolutely no damage) but medium lasers are a 9.5.

Then at 270 meters (which is typically a comfortable position for lights) Small Pulse is a 0 but medium lasers are a 9.5.

Then at 350 meters (which is one of the best ranges a light can be) Small Pulse is still 0 (and in order to do any damage youd have to run straight at the enemy for like 6 seconds) but Medium lasers get an 8.

Make sense? Small pulses are just bad if you have winning your matches at a goal. This goes not only for 12-man competitive but also pug games.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 September 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[ohtochooseaname]

Personally, I'd scale it a bit differently: under 90m, I'd give small pulses a 10, and mediums a 6. This is a combination of factors including duration, dps, damage, and heat. I still think medium lasers are generally better because staying out at 180m+ is necessary for survival long term, but if you're in a close in light vs light battle or trying to take out that Cataphract's side torso while he's trying to keep his back to you, there's really nothing better than small pulses for the tonnage and assuming ample slots.

Edited by ohtochooseaname, 19 September 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

ohtochooseaname, on 19 September 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Personally, I'd scale it a bit differently: under 90m, I'd give small pulses a 10, and mediums a 6. This is a combination of factors including duration, dps, damage, and heat. I still think medium lasers are generally better because staying out at 180m+ is necessary for survival long term, but if you're in a close in light vs light battle or trying to take out that Cataphract's side torso while he's trying to keep his back to you, there's really nothing better than small pulses for the tonnage and assuming ample slots.

You say "duration, dps, damage and heat" but these basically all amount to the same thing, except duration, so let's take them separately.

You talk about duration as if it is a benefit, like..."I only have to hold the beam on target for a short amount of time with small pulses." What you aren't realizing is that although the druation is in fact shorter for any one shot, you will spend more time holding beam on target in the end because you have to fire more times to reach a certain amount of damage. So, if you want to do 100 damage in small pulses, you will be pointing at your opponent at least as much as you would be if you were using medium lasers. Small pulses do not = more damage less aiming.

Now dps, damage, and heat...that is all the same thing. DPS is just a function of damage and heat. Now lets look at the actual numbers here.

So lets take the same exact build, 15DHS, 1JJ Jenner-F, and see what the stats are for Small Pulses and Med lasers.

So the maximum sustained DPS for the SPulse is 4.23, whereas the MLaser is 3.9. Okay, thats a small DPS advantage, but it asumes a situation that never happens with lights, which is "I'm going to fire forever and never stop."

Let's consider a more relevant damage statistic. Total damage over the course of a 20 second fight. 20 seconds is a standard fight time. Remember, we are assuming we are within 90 meters here. If you plan to stay under 90 meters for more than 20 seconds, you are as good as dead, and we won't need to have this discussion because you will be a pile of rubble.

Over the course of 20 seconds, the SPulses put out 148.4 damage (7.42 dps)
Can the MLaser build compete? Over the course of 20 seconds, the MLaser build puts out 150 damage (7.5 dps). That's right, higher DPS over the course of 20 seconds.
But let's take this a step further. With my MLasers, I can take a shot while charging into the 90m range...let's say from 270 meters. Then, on the way out, I can do a jump turnaround and fire ANOTHER shot at 270 meters. Both of these shots would be impossible for the SPulse user. This adds another 60 damage to my total, which puts me at 210 compared to your 148.4, making Medium lasers also the damage king in a standard light engagement. I would have to fire for 40 seconds straight, all within 90 meters for the small pulses to be EQUIVALENT to the MLaser damage. If I have coolshots on both mechs, that number gets bumped up to about 65 seconds. 65 seconds straight of non-stop firing within 90 meters simply does not happen.

I hope I've made my point, and this topic can be put to rest until the (hopefully) next pulse laser buff.

[John Buford]

Ok nubers make my brain just guess it is to much like work. I just think of it this way with MLAS I can start shooting earlier which gives me more ways to make my escape if things get to dangerous.

[ohtochooseaname]

PEEFsmash, on 19 September 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

You talk about duration as if it is a benefit, like..."I only have to hold the beam on target for a short amount of time with small pulses." What you aren't realizing is that although the druation is in fact shorter for any one shot, you will spend more time holding beam on target in the end because you have to fire more times to reach a certain amount of damage. So, if you want to do 100 damage in small pulses, you will be pointing at your opponent at least as much as you would be if you were using medium lasers. Small pulses do not = more damage less aiming.

This is inaccurate: 1 small pulse does 6.8 damage per second of on time, while a medium laser does 5. This is a 36% increase. Furthermore, the method of using a laser is generally to sweep across a target: this is from a mismatch between your mouse's speed to the speed of the target on the screen. The more skilled you are, the less of a mismatch there is and the less it matters. Also, one of the ways to survive at 90 meters is to hug the opponent to prevent pinpoint alphas and only take a fraction of the damage. In this case the place you are shooting for may only be exposed for a fraction of a second, so the higher damage per second of beam time may be very important.

PEEFsmash, on 19 September 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Now dps, damage, and heat...that is all the same thing. DPS is just a function of damage and heat. Now lets look at the actual numbers here.

So lets take the same exact build, 15DHS, 1JJ Jenner-F, and see what the stats are for Small Pulses and Med lasers.

So the maximum sustained DPS for the SPulse is 4.23, whereas the MLaser is 3.9. Okay, thats a small DPS advantage, but it asumes a situation that never happens with lights, which is "I'm going to fire forever and never stop."

Let's consider a more relevant damage statistic. Total damage over the course of a 20 second fight. 20 seconds is a standard fight time. Remember, we are assuming we are within 90 meters here. If you plan to stay under 90 meters for more than 20 seconds, you are as good as dead, and we won't need to have this discussion because you will be a pile of rubble.

Over the course of 20 seconds, the SPulses put out 148.4 damage (7.42 dps)
Can the MLaser build compete? Over the course of 20 seconds, the MLaser build puts out 150 damage (7.5 dps). That's right, higher DPS over the course of 20 seconds.
But let's take this a step further. With my MLasers, I can take a shot while charging into the 90m range...let's say from 270 meters. Then, on the way out, I can do a jump turnaround and fire ANOTHER shot at 270 meters. Both of these shots would be impossible for the SPulse user. This adds another 60 damage to my total, which puts me at 210 compared to your 148.4, making Medium lasers also the damage king in a standard light engagement. I would have to fire for 40 seconds straight, all within 90 meters for the small pulses to be EQUIVALENT to the MLaser damage. If I have coolshots on both mechs, that number gets bumped up to about 65 seconds. 65 seconds straight of non-stop firing within 90 meters simply does not happen.

I hope I've made my point, and this topic can be put to rest until the (hopefully) next pulse laser buff.

I think your numbers are a bit off: for 20 seconds, the SPLs fire 8 times for 163.2 damage (8th shot ends at 19.75 seconds) while the Medium laser fires 5 times for 150 damage. If we did 21 seconds, it would fire 6 times for 180 damage. However, the really important part is that 3 shots in a row (9 seconds, 90 damage) with 6 ML's is enough to overheat a jenner on a normal heat map, while the SPL's overheat on the 7th shot (17 seconds, 142.8 damage), meaning that SPL's can do over 50% more damage prior to overheating.

You say 20 seconds is too long, but light vs light battles frequently take that long. Also, when taking on heavier stuff, the idea is to not be noticed until it is too late and/or engage a busy target from behind. This can easily last longer than 20 seconds. The SPL's are far better for light vs light combat, which is frequently entirely within 90 meters. Grant it, the disadvantage of the SPL is that the enemy light can basically run away and at least get past 90 meters.

All that being said, I'd personally never take all SPL's over all ML's due to the range issues. I find being limited to such a short range for all weapons to be impractical. I would, however, consider 3 SPL's and 3 ML's

Edited by ohtochooseaname, 19 September 2013 - 09:13 PM.