81 replies to this topic

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

ohtochooseaname, on 19 September 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

Also, one of the ways to survive at 90 meters is to hug the opponent to prevent pinpoint alphas and only take a fraction of the damage. In this case the place you are shooting for may only be exposed for a fraction of a second, so the higher damage per second of beam time may be very important.

I hugged PEEFsmash's deep red CT Cataphract once in a Jenner. Took the kill but ended up legged in 2 seconds.

[ohtochooseaname]

IV Amen, on 19 September 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

I hugged PEEFsmash's deep red CT Cataphract once in a Jenner. Took the kill but ended up legged in 2 seconds.

Yeah, hugging high damage ballistics is suicide. One of many, many reasons 6 SPL is a lousy build.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

ohtochooseaname, on 19 September 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Yeah, hugging high damage ballistics is suicide. One of many, many reasons 6 SPL is a lousy build.

Hugging any skilled player is a suicide.

[ohtochooseaname]

IV Amen, on 19 September 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Hugging any skilled player is a suicide.

Not if they have srm's, medium lasers, and/or ac2's or 5's.

[PEEFsmash]

ohtochooseaname, on 19 September 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

This is inaccurate: 1 small pulse does 6.8 damage per second of on time, while a medium laser does 5. This is a 36% increase. Furthermore, the method of using a laser is generally to sweep across a target: this is from a mismatch between your mouse's speed to the speed of the target on the screen. The more skilled you are, the less of a mismatch there is and the less it matters. Also, one of the ways to survive at 90 meters is to hug the opponent to prevent pinpoint alphas and only take a fraction of the damage. In this case the place you are shooting for may only be exposed for a fraction of a second, so the higher damage per second of beam time may be very important.



I think your numbers are a bit off: for 20 seconds, the SPLs fire 8 times for 163.2 damage (8th shot ends at 19.75 seconds) while the Medium laser fires 5 times for 150 damage. If we did 21 seconds, it would fire 6 times for 180 damage. However, the really important part is that 3 shots in a row (9 seconds, 90 damage) with 6 ML's is enough to overheat a jenner on a normal heat map, while the SPL's overheat on the 7th shot (17 seconds, 142.8 damage), meaning that SPL's can do over 50% more damage prior to overheating.

You say 20 seconds is too long, but light vs light battles frequently take that long. Also, when taking on heavier stuff, the idea is to not be noticed until it is too late and/or engage a busy target from behind. This can easily last longer than 20 seconds. The SPL's are far better for light vs light combat, which is frequently entirely within 90 meters. Grant it, the disadvantage of the SPL is that the enemy light can basically run away and at least get past 90 meters.

All that being said, I'd personally never take all SPL's over all ML's due to the range issues. I find being limited to such a short range for all weapons to be impractical. I would, however, consider 3 SPL's and 3 ML's

My numbers are directly from the smurfy weaponlab. Check it out for yourself. MLas does more damage in 20 seconds.

As far as the time on target thing....you are forgetting the extra time you have to spend looking at the enemy because you have to turn towards them more often. This leaves you less time to spread damage. Like I said, maybe SPulse have a small advantage within 90, but really, it doens't amount to sh*t because of the massive disadvantages pointed out.

[Corvus Antaka]

Your better off with at least 2 MLaser and 4 Spulses due to the loss of range. But the small pulse laser is exceptional exactly because of it's beam duration and faster cycle due to the beam time. Even normal smalls are incredible backup weapon on any mech due to the cycle time.

[ohtochooseaname]

PEEFsmash, on 20 September 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

My numbers are directly from the smurfy weaponlab. Check it out for yourself. MLas does more damage in 20 seconds.

As far as the time on target thing....you are forgetting the extra time you have to spend looking at the enemy because you have to turn towards them more often. This leaves you less time to spread damage. Like I said, maybe SPulse have a small advantage within 90, but really, it doens't amount to sh*t because of the massive disadvantages pointed out.

Smurfy is incorrect due to the simplicity of its algorithm. And, the advantage within 90 isn't small: if you ever face a decent pilot with it, it'll chew you apart, jenner to jenner. However, you won't because no decent pilot would run it.

The spread damage point is valid except for the fact that it's a jenner, which has huge problems doing that: it's extremely easy to hit either the back front ct from any angle.

[Steeler]

I am a fan of the 6 Small Pulse Laser build, even though the 3 Medium Laser / 3 Small Laser build has also worked great for me.

Most of my lights are brawlers, and I've mastered Jenner and Spider so far. In my experience (445 matches registered, 42 with the brawler built 6xSMPL Jenner), good piloting, situational awareness, speed and use of terrain will get you far, as long as you don't engage in silly head-to-head brawls with heavies. Let me emphasize "good piloting". You have to know the turn rates of the heavies, and when to dodge-thrust your jump jets to avoid getting critically hit. Do I ever get 1-shot cored by an AC20? You bet, but very, very rarely.

Guerilla tactics while LRM spotting has netted me many kills with this config, and in a full-out brawl, getting in behind heavies and assaults lets you do a lot of unnoticed damage. Like a previous poster, I average 4-600 damage, with a record of 1052 in one match. I have no idea if this build is worth anything in a clanwar, with "pro" 12-man teams, but it seems to work great in publics.

Just remember, that you're a distractor, not a brawler: Make enemies notice you, run away while your buddies tear into the mechs who are turning to fire on you, while you run behind cover and circle back for another few quick 6x Small Pulse Laser alphas. If they got their back turned, have a field day tearing into legs, arms or back, whichever is damaged the most. If you're good enough a pilot to get behind another light, you can pretty much 2-3 alpha core most of them.

I would recommend this build, if you're into frantic running and hard action, and have a steady aim.

Just my opinion.

That said, I like my 3xMPL, AMS, ECM Spider better

Edited by Steeler, 20 September 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[TygerLily]

I run my Jenner F with 5 mediums for better heat and range.

6 spl gives you a 20.4 damage alpha for 14.4 heat. By contrast, 3 mpl gives you 18 damage for 15 heat at twice the range. Very similar and the 3 mpl build can fit on a Spider 5D with ECM.

I think you'd be better off with regular small lasers. Same range, .25 longer beam duration which is negligible, only .4 less damage but you'd save 1.5 tons! Huge when your overall tonnage is so small.

[DEMAX51]

I'd like to challenge any of the 6 small pulse advocates to a 1v1 duel, you in your small pulse build and me in my 5 ML build, and we'll see how that plays out.

[ShinVector]

DEMAX51, on 20 September 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'd like to challenge any of the 6 small pulse advocates to a 1v1 duel, you in your small pulse build and me in my 5 ML build, and we'll see how that plays out.

Awww.. But I marked OP first.

[Szegedin]

DEMAX51, on 20 September 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'd like to challenge any of the 6 small pulse advocates to a 1v1 duel, you in your small pulse build and me in my 5 ML build, and we'll see how that plays out.

Wouldn't call myself a small pulse advocate, as I'd never *recommend* the setup to anyone - but I do run it and have never, to my memory, been out-dueled in a light fight -

By which I mean a spontaneous 1v1 from a relatively healthy state, with little outside interference...doesn't happen very often in matches but is great when it does.

A preplanned duel against a seasoned player sounds like fun though, I'd be game if you're serious...

Edited by Szegedin, 20 September 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

just 4 ml, and more DHS the last time I played with the F, I focus on always staying 250m from the target at all times

[Johnny Reb]

DeRazer, on 09 September 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

I certainly run the 6x SmPL - and it may even have been me you saw as I'm trying to Elite Jenners right now.

In fairness I'm doing it because I want to practise the face huggin' a bit - being more used by far to Heavies and Assaults.

As far as outcomes go... not that great - ratio of 0.25 means I die a lot. BUT! When I get another light 1 to 1 then it really shines.

Yup, I mount the spl in MWO Arena matches when its 1v1 lights. Not very effective against the big boys due to the decreased range.

[DEMAX51]

Szegedin, on 20 September 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Wouldn't call myself a small pulse advocate, as I'd never *recommend* the setup to anyone - but I do run it and have never, to my memory, been out-dueled in a light fight -

By which I mean a spontaneous 1v1 from a relatively healthy state, with little outside interference...doesn't happen very often in matches but is great when it does.

A preplanned duel against a seasoned player sounds like fun though, I'd be game if you're serious...

Absolutely, man - either PM me or drop by our TS server at ts.blackstaralliance.com and we'll set it up.

[Steeler]

I am just wondering... some of you are talking about using the medium lasers and "staying at optimal range, around 250m". How do you manage to stay away from another decent light pilot, fully upgraded? My lights run around 152 kph... not much in this game, if anything at all, can outrun that. Even if you have comparable speed, you'd still be caught up to, if you wanted to get any shots off, since nobody can torso twist 180 degrees. Even worse chance in a 1on1 of staying at those distances. In theory, it would end up in a brawl anyway, where the SMPL would have the advantage with less heat, higher rate of fire. I have never done a 1on1, nor do I intend to. I'd rather be a Soldier than a Gladiator. Win the war, not the skirmish. Gladiatorial fighting is all fine and well for sharpening skills, but in an Assault or Conquest, being a good hitter actually becomes secondary to tactics, in my opinion, that is, picking your fights, knowing who/when to engage and when to run like a rabbit, when to support teammates and when to leave them alone (yeah, we lights aren't the most honorable bunch, are we? ) It's calculations like those that win a match, not whether you have a 95% or 85% hit rate (personally, I score around the latter...). I have beaten pilots who were far better than me by far, by luring them into traps where they would get ganged, because they were so intent on taking down another light in a 1on1. You can have the most insane hit rate in the world, but if it's at the cost of overextending your grasp to get those hits, it's not worth much. Dead is still dead

[PEEFsmash]

Steeler, on 22 September 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

I am just wondering... some of you are talking about using the medium lasers and "staying at optimal range, around 250m". How do you manage to stay away from another decent light pilot, fully upgraded? My lights run around 152 kph... not much in this game, if anything at all, can outrun that.

Don't have to outrun it, just move about the same speed.

Steeler, on 22 September 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Even if you have comparable speed, you'd still be caught up to, if you wanted to get any shots off, since nobody can torso twist 180 degrees.

Jump>turn midair>shoot>turn in midair>point legs where you want to go>land.

Steeler, on 22 September 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

I have beaten pilots who were far better than me by far, by luring them into traps where they would get ganged, because they were so intent on taking down another light in a 1on1.

See, you just explained yourself what to do when a light gets too thirsty for you. Just run back to your team, do jumping turnaround shots on the way, everything will be okay.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 22 September 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Deathlike]

Why is someone feeding Peef's mega ego?

SPL is useful after its buffs, but the range limitation literally limits its potential. If you're concerned about having heat issues from having more than 3 or 4 MLs, the SPL is an interesting choice.

4 ML and 2 SPL sounds alright to me... but boating SPL makes you less productive and useful overall.. even if you raise more hell at short range.

[Steeler]

Peef, I *really* don't see that working at all. I may miss a trick or 2 in my book, but doing JJ 360's, firing mid-air, and continuing the same way seems like a sure fire way to a: bleed enough speed to be caught, and b: have atrocious accuracy. Even if you hit the ground running, JJ will still bleed horizontal speed at those KPH.
That said, I'd like to see a demo of that move, if it's consistently possible. I, for one, can't make JJ turns without bleeding speed, but I'm always willing to learn something new

Edited by Steeler, 22 September 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[Szegedin]

DEMAX51, on 21 September 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Absolutely, man - either PM me or drop by our TS server at ts.blackstaralliance.com and we'll set it up.

Great, I'll look at blackstar over the next few EST nights, If i keep missing you we'll work out something more specific. -