211 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

PropagandaWar, on 10 September 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

we need consistency. Its like the friggin streaks doing 2.5 dmg. Why? SRM 2's do 2 and you know they are going to nerf the {Scrap} out of them when sixes and fours come in. Get it right now don't adjust when they come out. 15 is fine for a er ppc. Because when clan comes out it won't need adjustments/

yet according to smurfy, with Artemis....the SRM does 2.5. But I sure dont remember seeing the patch note for that..... they need more transparency on here.

[PropagandaWar]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 September 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

yet according to smurfy, with Artemis....the SRM does 2.5. But I sure dont remember seeing the patch note for that..... they need more transparency on here.

really lol. Lies Lies I tell ya!

[Ax2Grind]

Rumors of the PPC being dead are wildly inaccurate. PPC and ERPPC both have a place and are both still viable. I see them and use them in PUG, 4 man, and 12 man drops. You would not see these weapons in competitive 12 mans if they were useless.

PPC's are just no longer easily boat-able, and the Guass/PPC combo is now tougher to pull off. That's a good thing. PPC's were the main meta weapon of choice for months...its ok if they take a hit so that they are more balanced with the other weapons. Did it reduce DPS? Sure...on average I score 500 damage instead of 800 damage with my PPC mechs...but two PPC's or ERPPC's are still quite dangerous...are still useful...and are still being used by many competitive players I face online...and they still kill other mechs. And yes, its about time the Large Laser felt like a good choice and some thought had to go into whether to take them or a PPC. That's what happens when weapons are closer to being balanced.

And to those who try to reason that its like it was in closed beta, your full of it. PPC's were truly useless then, now they can be used quite effectively.

[TOGSolid]

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And to those who try to reason that its like it was in closed beta, your full of it. PPC's were truly useless then, now they can be used quite effectively.

That's entirely due to hit detection being a lot better. Stat wise they are absolutely back to how they used to be.

[SteelPaladin]

TOGSolid, on 10 September 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

That's entirely due to hit detection being a lot better. Stat wise they are absolutely back to how they used to be.

Technically, they still have a higher projectile speed than they did in closed beta. Back then, the gauss rifle had the fastest speed at 1200 (IIRC, PPC was 900, which is what the AC/20 does now). The boost in speed combines well w/the better hit detection to make them feel like you're at least hitting for flooding your heat meter.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 10 September 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[Villz]

I do alright with them l2p

[Khobai]

Any weapon with a 90m deadzone is useless in this meta where lights will facehug you because theres no collision. And if you have to mix PPCs with non-PPCs your loadout is half as effective as if you just boated the same type of weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[YueFei]

Khobai, on 10 September 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Any weapon with a 90m deadzone is useless in this meta where lights will facehug you because theres no collision. And if you have to mix PPCs with non-PPCs your loadout is half as effective as if you just boated the same type of weapon.

That doesn't work if the PPC users work at least in pairs. Just like Fighter Pilots try never never to fly alone, always have a wingman. Two PPC users standing 100 meters apart and if a light mech hugs one of them, the other guy will vaporize the little guy.

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That video is post-nerf though. Thatd be like me showing my 2500 damage with LRMs from LRMpocalpyse and saying LRMs are fine even though theyve been nerfed since then.

??? That video is how the PPC and Gauss currently are. As you yourself said, it is "post-nerf".

Look at that video and realize how much more you could spam PPCs back when they were 8 heat and had a 3 second recycle time. =P

[Modo44]

Khobai, on 10 September 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Any weapon with a 90m deadzone is useless in this meta where lights will facehug you because theres no collision.

Imagine if you could take other weapons instead of boating PPCs.

[Drasari]

Modo44, on 10 September 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Imagine if you could take other weapons instead of boating PPCs.

Yeah like boating UAC-5 and SRM....

[Khobai]

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??? That video is how the PPC and Gauss currently are. As you yourself said, it is "post-nerf".

Yeah I read that as pre-nerf for some reason. My bad. ERPPCs and Gauss are definitely still viable. PPCs however are worthless with their deadzone.

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That doesn't work if the PPC users work at least in pairs. Just like Fighter Pilots try never never to fly alone, always have a wingman. Two PPC users standing 100 meters apart and if a light mech hugs one of them, the other guy will vaporize the little guy.

Not a good example since no decent light pilot is going to fight 1v2 unless one of the mechs is heavily damage or its a last ditch effort to win. A more likely scenario would be a pack of lights swarming the 2 mechs with PPCs and theyd be mostly defenseless.

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Imagine if you could take other weapons instead of boating PPCs.

Mixed loadouts tend to be ineffective compared to boated loadouts though. So why gimp your build?

[Corvus Antaka]

Khobai, on 10 September 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Mixed loadouts tend to be ineffective compared to boated loadouts though. So why gimp your build?

What exactly are you asking for here? You want more boats by dropping PPC heat? you want PPC to not have minrange because erppc is too hot? You want less boats? more ghost heat?

[Khobai]

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What exactly are you asking for here? You want more boats by dropping PPC heat? you want PPC to not have minrange because erppc is too hot? You want less boats? more ghost heat?

I want less boating and for mixed loadouts to be more effective. Convergence still rewards you too much for using multiple weapons of the same type.

Mixed loadouts are much more difficult to use than boated loadouts... because you have to keep track of weapons with different ranges, different leadtimes, different cooldowns, etc... yet theres no real advantage to mixing weapons whatsoever. That seems wrong to me.

Its harder to do, so it should be better, not worse.

Edited by Khobai, 11 September 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Khobai, on 10 September 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

I want less boating and for mixed loadouts to be effective. Convergence still rewards you too much for using multiple weapons of the same type.

Ah...so you want a new aiming system? I doubt that will ever happen at this point.

Mixed loadouts work fine for me. I've also had success with boats. Niether seems better than the other at this point.

[SteelPaladin]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 September 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

Ah...so you want a new aiming system? I doubt that will ever happen at this point.

Mixed loadouts work fine for me. I've also had success with boats. Niether seems better than the other at this point.

It doesn't have to be a new aiming system. There just have to be more weapons that synergize w/weapons that are not the same weapon. For example, there was a period in closed beta where the gauss rifle and PPC had the same projectile velocities. PPCs weren't even very good then, but they did get paired up w/GRs because they could be fired on the same aiming point (i.e. you didn't have to remember which gun was coming up next and shift aim between them). AC/5s and PPCs were great chums in TT because of identical ranges and the fact that one was hot/high damage and the other was cool/mid-damage, but that doesn't work in MWO because they have different projectile speeds and their cooldowns don't line up right (1.5 doesn't go into 4 evenly).

Making every gun a completely special snowflake works great when you're only firing one gun at a time (ala most other shooters). When you're expected to put multiple weapons together into batteries, similarities are as important as differences (as in the AC/5 + PPC example, where the heat patterns are different, but the fire profiles aren't). There's a reason Dreadnaught-type battleships dominated.

[Modo44]

Khobai, on 10 September 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Mixed loadouts tended to be ineffective compared to boated loadouts though.

FTFY.

Edited by Modo44, 11 September 2013 - 12:27 AM.

[tigerija]

deanon, on 10 September 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

The heat cost is to high, never put out enough damage for them to be worth it, Large Lasers are pretty much allways better since they allow you to fire more. Tried them with my highlander and 15 double heatsinks..

PPCs are too hot if you use only PPC weapons on your mech -.-' . So dont use 3,4,5 PPCs.

[Aym]

deanon, on 10 September 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

The heat cost is to high, never put out enough damage for them to be worth it, Large Lasers are pretty much allways better since they allow you to fire more.

Tried them with my highlander and 15 double heatsinks..

[Khobai]

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Ah...so you want a new aiming system?

No thats never gonna happen. I think the best I can hope for at this point is a stock mech only gamemode. Because PGI doesnt seem to be able to balance customization.

[Karl Streiger]

To make multiple weapons more efficent means that a combination of multiple weapon kinds shoud grant you a boost at a given range.
While a mono build could be superb at its special range - but less powerfull at any other:

Here is some I did a while ago:

You see the standard trapeze of MWO damage:
You see that 2 MLAS are more powerfull till ~ 330m at 40% of the weight and less heat as the ER-LLAS.
A combination of would work - (for example 2 ER-LLAS and 4 MLAS)

In the lower part you see some of my curves - including range characteristics of each weapon.
As for the MWO weapons the MLAS are more supperior over the Large Lasers at short range -but because of the range characteristcs the damage drops of quiete faster. Near 150m the LLAS is the better choice - that deal more damage as the ER-LLAS until 400m

That is only for lasers... you can think - that the MPLAS is more supperior to the MLAS at much shorter range - while the LPLAS would outgun the LLAS - but still there would be a small range bracket were it is less powerfull were the other weapon starts to become better.

So for example for a given weight and heat ratio those weapons deal at that range the most damage:
0-10m - SPLAS
10-20m - SLAS
20-40m - MG
40-90m - MPLAS
90-130m - SRM
130-160m - MLAS
150-200m - LPLAS
200-270m - PPC
....
....