211 replies to this topic

[xengk]

Why not both?
My 8Q now runs with 2x PPC for long - mid range sniping, 2x LLaz for med - short range defend, and 2 MLaz to fill the gap while other weapons are on cooldown.

Rhaythe, on 10 September 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

*Whoosh!*



You called?

Personally, I still prefer Metal Rage over Hawken.

Edited by xengk, 11 September 2013 - 01:25 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ax2Grind, on 10 September 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

PPC's were the main meta weapon of choice for months...its ok if they take a hit so that they are more balanced with the other weapons. Did it reduce DPS? Sure...on average I score 500 damage instead of 800 damage with my PPC mechs...but two PPC's or ERPPC's are still quite dangerous...are still useful...and are still being used by many competitive players I face online...and they still kill other mechs. And yes, its about time the Large Laser felt like a good choice and some thought had to go into whether to take them or a PPC. That's what happens when weapons are closer to being balanced.

And to those who try to reason that its like it was in closed beta, your full of it. PPC's were truly useless then, now they can be used quite effectively.

Sure they were the weapon of choice for many months but that is not because they were overpowered or unbalanced, rather most people found them easier to use than trying to learn how to hold a pulse on a LL.

You also mention damage. So if I did 500 damage with my PPC mech and 500 damage with my LL mechs and now I am doing 350 damage with my PPC mechs and 500 damage with my LL mechs which is what is occuring, how is that balanced against LLs?

Lastly, the Large Laser always was a good choice for anyone that got off their lazy bum and learned how to actually hold a pluse with them, in fact most of the time they were a better choice than PPCs and ER PPCs back when their heat was at its lowest, at least they were for me by about a 15-20% margin in damage and kill ratios.

And here is the final problem. Back when the heat was much lower on the PPC and ER PPC, that is when I felt that some thought had to go into choosing them over a LL. Now no thought is required at all since I find the PPC and ER PPC worthless due to how hot they are now compared to my ability to manage their heat output.

I guess what irks me is that people keep quoting balance and saying they are balanced now but none of my personal testing is finding them balanced even remotely. In each and ever mech I try the PPC and ER PPC on, I find myself doing 30-50% worse than I do with a LL build where as before, when I tracked my stats, a PPC build produced almost mirrorlike results to the LL. Now this might be because I am told I am very, VERY good with lasers and most people I spectate on can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn with them. This however irks me even more because that means the PPC is being nerfed because it is easier to use rather than because it is actually performing better.

[Karl Streiger]

Viktor Drake, on 11 September 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

This however irks me even more because that means the PPC is being nerfed because it is easier to use rather than because it is actually performing better.

When its easier to use - than it is better - simple fact.

And you seem to make the mistake to count damage as an indicator for successfull or less successful usage of a weapon.
Its not.
Even when you are able to keep the burn of a laser really tight - that most of the damage hit just a single spot - the PPC will always do better.
For example 40 dmg by a PPC to a Hunchbacks RT may have the same result (no armor) as when you dealt 50dmg with Large Lasers...simple because slight damage will wander off.

The next factor is: a PPC is 100% or 0% damage. So with reduced speed and more heat - they are still really potent weapons - and i didn't stoped using them - i even like them more - because they are harder to use

---

xengk, on 11 September 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

Why not both?
My 8Q now runs with 2x PPC for long - mid range sniping, 2x LLaz for med - short range defend, and 2 MLaz to fill the gap while other weapons are on cooldown.

Well brackets still work - had once a 8Q with two ER-PPC and 5 MLAS - for the same reason - although it was simpler in usage. (and i only loos 3 dmg to your build - and have a faster engine)

Only because of Ghost Heat we have this discussion - because in all other circumstances a Quad LLAS or Quad PPC Awesome would outgun you in any case

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 September 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[M0rpHeu5]

Why coulden't they just do this to the PPCs before adding the ghost heat I wander.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

My unit does a lot of 12-mans, both in the tournament/RHOD aspect, and in randoms. PPCs are not gone, but they are not as prevalent any longer, either.

Personally, I see a lot more reason to use LLas and erLLas if/when doing long-range support, now. With a noticeably faster re-fire time and also a noticeably lesser heat burden (even with the ER variants), you can push out almost identical damage to a PPC, and you can push it out faster, more often, and with less down-time. An absolute 'perfect' marksman (of which almost none exist) might be able to make better use of the old PPC/Gauss combination, but it would require levels of skill that I haven't seen in my unit nor in even our best competitors; the 'insta-alpha' of 35/45 damage from 1000 meters that we saw so often a few months ago just isn't something that can be feasibly executed any longer (at least not reliably).

PPCs are still good weapons; if you don't have the tonnage/space/slots for a Gauss, AC/5's (pairs of regulars or ultras) or and AC/10, they are your prime choices for long-range damage. If you can mount a decent projectile weapon and a couple of erLLas, though? It's a better overall combination that doesn't see you weakened at any particular range and doesn't burden you with a heat load that becomes sub-optimal in heated engagements, or on hot maps.

Edited by Arrachtas, 11 September 2013 - 02:54 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Viktor Drake, on 11 September 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

You also mention damage. So if I did 500 damage with my PPC mech and 500 damage with my LL mechs and now I am doing 350 damage with my PPC mechs and 500 damage with my LL mechs which is what is occuring, how is that balanced against LLs?

yes. but, a PPC mech can hit 1 location over and over. the PPC requires a tiny fraction of exposure to do this locational damage. the laser sprays damage all over the mech unless it is standing still or not twisting. This is a huge difference.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Karl Streiger, on 11 September 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

When its easier to use - than it is better - simple fact.

And you seem to make the mistake to count damage as an indicator for successfull or less successful usage of a weapon.
Its not.
Even when you are able to keep the burn of a laser really tight - that most of the damage hit just a single spot - the PPC will always do better.
For example 40 dmg by a PPC to a Hunchbacks RT may have the same result (no armor) as when you dealt 50dmg with Large Lasers...simple because slight damage will wander off.

The next factor is: a PPC is 100% or 0% damage. So with reduced speed and more heat - they are still really potent weapons - and i didn't stoped using them - i even like them more - because they are harder to use

Easier is not better. This is like saying an AK-47 is better than a M16 because it is easier to maintain and fire. The Ak-47 is heavier, alot less accurate and its ammo weighs more too which why they were replaced by the AK-74. However the M16 actually takes training and practice to maintain and learn to take advantage of its higher accuracy. This is kind of like PPCs vs LL. PPCs you can apply spray and pray with them because you have no ammo and if you hit you get 100% damage. LLs are percision aim weapons where you have to hold a pulse.

Also, when I compare mechs I use every stat, not just damage. For example back when the QD first came out I ran a 4G and a 4H with nearly an identical build, the exception was one had a pair of PPCs and the other a pair of LLs backed up by more DHS bought with the weight saved by mounting LLs instead of PPCs. I then ran these back to back to compare them and the results were near mirrorlike with the exception being that the LL managed about 20% more damage. K/D, Wins Rate, everything else was virtually the same. As far as the extra damage on the LL build, well I am sure this was do to spread and the ability to fire more often with the LL build but lets face it, damage is damage. This means the LL build actually was better at supporting my team by weakening the enemy team more plus I got higher reward amounts as well thus is is pretty obvious to me which of the two weapons was the better "all arounder". Sure there were some matches having a PPC was a definate advantage but there were just as many where the LL build was the better. This made is real obvious that the PPC and LL were very closely balanced. This was also back when PPC heat was at its lowest.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 September 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

yes. but, a PPC mech can hit 1 location over and over. the PPC requires a tiny fraction of exposure to do this locational damage. the laser sprays damage all over the mech unless it is standing still or not twisting. This is a huge difference.

Pada, people keep using this arguement over and over and I will 100% admit these features are what makes the PPC unique and are an advantage however you and many others make these advantages out to be the trump card that makes the 1 million times superior to the LL and that is just overstated to say the least.

LLs weight 2 tons less and are 30% cooler firing than PPCs are now. Add in the fact that you can take that two tons and covert them into additional heatsinks and LL builds are probably only 60% as hot as a PPC now. THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!!

See how I can turn the advantages around? Also this is only the tip of the iceberge where LL advantages are concerned. You can add the following:

1 - Ability to correct aim if you don't hit your intended target (Not a all or nothing attack like the PPC where a miss results in zero damage).
2 - Ease of initial aiming. (Very easy to place your crosshair on a target rather than having to judge lead).
3 - Less noticeable beams (No big blue bolt that scream here I am shoot me).
4 - Less noticeable effect on hit (No big blue bolt smashing into the enemy in a shower of sparks that screams, "I am taking damage, better MOVE!!!") In fact, it is easy for LL damage to totally escape the notice of the enemy pilot.

The point is there are just as many advantages to using LLs as disadvantages when compared to PPCs and the PPC advantages DO NOT trump all.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 11 September 2013 - 01:16 PM.

[Iron War]

PPC get hit with 3 hammers added heat . . . minimal range of 90 meters . . . and projectile speed down to 1500 m/s. ERPPC has added heat with a terrible heat system.

Easy fix make non-engine DHS 2.0 or make the projectile speed instant (projectile speed near light speed) . . . if i had it my way i would do both.


Man made lightning is slow as **** . . . what a joke.

[hashinshin]

Large lasers have 1 less heat and 1 more damage than on TT.

But hey, at least we finally reduced the PPC to tabletop values cause uhm.... yeah we did it team! They're totally as useful as they were in closed beta now!

Edited by hashinshin, 11 September 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Viktor Drake, on 11 September 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Pada, people keep using this arguement over and over and I will 100% admit these features are what makes the PPC unique and are an advantage however you and many others make these advantages out to be the trump card that makes the 1 million times superior to the LL and that is just overstated to say the least.

LLs weight 2 tons less and are 30% cooler firing than PPCs are now. Add in the fact that you can take that two tons and covert them into additional heatsinks and LL builds are probably only 60% as hot as a PPC now. THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!!

See how I can turn the advantages around? Also this is only the tip of the iceberge where LL advantages are concerned. You can add the following:

1 - Ability to correct aim if you don't hit your intended target (Not a all or nothing attack like the PPC where a miss results in zero damage).
2 - Ease of initial aiming. (Very easy to place your crosshair on a target rather than having to judge lead).
3 - Less noticeable beams (No big blue bolt that scream here I am shoot me).
4 - Less noticeable effect on hit (No big blue bolt smashing into the enemy in a shower of sparks that screams, "I am taking damage, better MOVE!!!") In fact, it is easy for LL damage to totally escape the notice of the enemy pilot.

The point is there are just as many advantages to using LLs as disadvantages when compared to PPCs and the PPC advantages DO NOT trump all.

thats the point, ppc makes a great sniping gun, but it's not the only viable weapon. lets not forget that with just 1 and 2 less heat the PPC dominated this game until last month.

I have no problems doing well with either PPC, and i certainly have yet to feel gimped by taking the ppc vs a laser.

[Morikuro]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 September 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

My preference would be projectile speed, but even simply returning the under 90m damage to PPC would be fine, since it's not like you were doing great damage for heat anyhow. But it did allow you SOME degree of PBR defense with them.

Tbh, anyone who gets mad about the equivalent of 1 or more small lasers (it was small laser damage, right?) damaging them in exchange for a bunch of heat on the firer's side is probably just angry that a PPC is killing them at all. It really stings if the PPC boat has nearly killed you and you were about to get him, but that's all it is. I never felt threatened by the min range of a PPC boat...now if he had an ER PPC mixed in, that was different. At least you had the option though. But in a game where the only other weapon that does nothing at min range is a self-guided package you can sling over hills when people who aren't you are spotting, that's kind of a big deal. I didn't even boat them and it was just baffling.

Billygoat, on 10 September 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

I still think the hard, 0-damage cutoff at 90m is stupid though. I feel that mechanic is only really appropriate for LRMs in this game and it feels out of place on PPCs, especially when at 89m you can see the shot connect, see sparks fly, etc, but nothing happens. It either needs some visual feedback to show the shot fizzling out or a return to the old sliding distance/damage scale. Or better yet, remove the silly minimum range mechanic entirely for non-missile weapons if it's not going to be applied evenly to Gauss, AC/2s, etc. that also have penalties at short range in Battletech.

A min range on the ballistics would result in tears of blood. Imagine UAC/5 boats being totally ineffective under 60 meters.

Edited by Morikuro, 11 September 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Morikuro, on 11 September 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Tbh, anyone who gets mad about the equivalent of 1 or more small lasers (it was small laser damage, right?) damaging them in exchange for a bunch of heat on the firer's side is probably just angry that a PPC is killing them at all. It really stings if the PPC boat has nearly killed you and you were about to get him, but that's all it is. I never felt threatened by the min range of a PPC boat...now if he had an ER PPC mixed in, that was different. At least you had the option though. But in a game where the only other weapon that does nothing at min range is a self-guided package you can sling over hills when people who aren't you are spotting, that's kind of a big deal. I didn't even boat them and it was just baffling.



A min range on the ballistics would result in tears of blood. Imagine UAC/5 boats being totally ineffective under 60 meters.

not to mention make absolutely no bloody sense, lol.

[Morikuro]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 September 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

not to mention make absolutely no bloody sense, lol.

I know, right? Kind of like the PPC min range damage now.

[Bishop Steiner]

Morikuro, on 11 September 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I know, right? Kind of like the PPC min range damage now.

agreed. I would be OK (though not in love) with the projectile speed (apparently, lightning is slow) and heat, if they hadn't totally nerfed any PBR capability to the PPC, which is not strictly speaking, canon. That minimal damage capabilty, even at such high heat penalty, oftentimes was the difference between life or death in many of my mechs.

[TOGSolid]

Eh, they'd be better off making the ER PPC more attractive than to get rid of the PPC's min range.

Edited by TOGSolid, 11 September 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Billygoat]

Morikuro, on 11 September 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

A min range on the ballistics would result in tears of blood. Imagine UAC/5 boats being totally ineffective under 60 meters.

Which would be HILARIOUS and almost worth it just to see the wailing on the forums and ALL CAPS DEMANDS for refunds and bloody oaths to never spend money again by people who just bought an Ilya as their ticket for the UAC/5 exploit train.

But not quite. Hence my preference for removing or adjusting what is an unnecessary and unintuitive mechanic for any direct fire weapon, including PPCs. PPCs are now too hot to brawl with effectively (which is perfectly appropriate), so to my mind, the minimum range mechanic can and should go.

[Khobai]

Quote

yes. but, a PPC mech can hit 1 location over and over. the PPC requires a tiny fraction of exposure to do this locational damage. the laser sprays damage all over the mech unless it is standing still or not twisting. This is a huge difference.

Except you can still boat 6 large lasers on a stalker. You only have to hit a location for a fraction of a second to do the same damage as 2 PPCs. You just fire three groups of 2 large lasers or two groups of 3 large lasers and suck up the small penalty.

Quote

Eh, they'd be better off making the ER PPC more attractive than to get rid of the PPC's min range.

PGI overnerfed PPCs .

I would like to see PPCs at 9.5 heat with their minimum range restored to how it was. I'd also like to see ERPPCs at 14 heat with their range of 810m reduced to their canon range of 690m. And I'd like to see some disruption utility added to PPCs where they have a % chance to disrupt targeting for X seconds.

Thats more of a fine adjustment than diving off the deepend like PGI did.

Edited by Khobai, 11 September 2013 - 07:25 PM.

[YueFei]

Khobai, on 10 September 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Yeah I read that as pre-nerf for some reason. My bad. ERPPCs and Gauss are definitely still viable. PPCs however are worthless with their deadzone.

Not a good example since no decent light pilot is going to fight 1v2 unless one of the mechs is heavily damage or its a last ditch effort to win. A more likely scenario would be a pack of lights swarming the 2 mechs with PPCs and theyd be mostly defenseless.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the minimum range makes PPCs *worthless*. Certainly it's a big handicap, and I personally prefer the old way with damage fall-off which is more intuitive. But if we picture a 2v2 scenario of 2 lights versus 2 heavies, if 2 lights hug 1 heavy, the other heavy will just two-shot one of the light mech's legs, and that scenario soon becomes 2v1.

If each light mech hugs a heavy, each heavy can ignore the light mech that's hugging him and shoot the light mech that's hugging his buddy.

Sure the light mechs can win a 2v2, by playing smart, and hit-and-run, but I don't think simply hugging the heavies will work.

Anyways, even with linear damage fall-off the way it used to be, hugging still reduced PPC damage to 0 for all practical purposes, but that didn't make the PPC useless in the past.

Let's not speculate about Nv2 scenarios, where N>2, because without tonnage limitations in place, only numbers of mechs matters, not tonnage of mechs involved in a scrap.

[ShinVector]

Khobai, on 11 September 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Except you can still boat 6 large lasers on a stalker. You only have to hit a location for a fraction of a second to do the same damage as 2 PPCs. You just fire three groups of 2 large lasers or two groups of 3 large lasers and suck up the small penalty.



PGI overnerfed PPCs .

I would like to see PPCs at 9.5 heat with their minimum range restored to how it was. I'd also like to see ERPPCs at 14 heat with their range of 810m reduced to their canon range of 690m. And I'd like to see some disruption utility added to PPCs where they have a % chance to disrupt targeting for X seconds.

Thats more of a fine adjustment than diving off the deepend like PGI did.

Just to represent people who play at 250ms and above... Large Lasers aren't too great because you still have to lead with moving targets. Worst being fast light mechs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 September 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

thats the point, ppc makes a great sniping gun, but it's not the only viable weapon. lets not forget that with just 1 and 2 less heat the PPC dominated this game until last month.

I have no problems doing well with either PPC, and i certainly have yet to feel gimped by taking the ppc vs a laser.

As I read in another thread, popular doesn't mean better. Sure the PPC dominated in terms of how many people used them, this doesn't mean they were actually overpowered. People don't seem to understand this, rather they believe that if alot of people use them, they must be overpower.

Hell Pada, there are already posts calling for a nerf to Large Lasers because they are now the "Popular" weapon. This is a weapon that has never even been on the radar as a OPed weapon up until they added all this heat to the PPC and ER PPCs. Now people are transitioning to the Large Laser and suddenly the calls for Nerfage emerge. I mean think about it, if the PPC and ER PPC was balanced at their current values, then people wouldn't suddenly start complaining about the Large Laser being OP simply because they wouldn't appear on every mech and "appear" to be Overpowered due to how popular they are.

One last concept. You talk about them only being increased 1 or 2 more heat. Well envision this. I have a glass, it can hold 8 ounces of water. Now I can easily fill the glass with 6 ounces of water and carry it around and not spill it. At 7 ounces I can still carry it around but I have to be careful. At 8 ounces, the slightest shake causes some of the water to spill. At 9 ounces, the glass becomes useless. This is what is going on with the PPC and ER PPC right now. For example at 11 heat, the ER PPC was very manageable with heat. At 12, it started to get hard to manage but it was still tollerable. At 15, the cup runneth over. The point is that there is a breaking point and sometimes even a small change will cause something to move past the breaking point. Right now the PPC and ER PPC are definately past the breaking point.