41 replies to this topic

[Epic Fail]

Is there any thoughts on revisiting scouting?

The way I see it now, scouting is in terms of spot target. Which again, as far as I know, revolves around spotting a mech, holding the lock until indirect fire-support hits and then you get the tick.

I believe that this is leading to mechs like the AC/10 spider... or the ac/20 cicada.

Would the ability to gain a targets data be used to garner XP for scouts rather than the indirect support be more efficient for those of us that actually like to scout?

From a lance standpoint, as a scout it is far more important to me and my lance mates to know what is actually coming rather than being able to put a couple hits of LRM onto the target and then bugging out. Or building a mini assault mech to try and take on stragglers. Thile I understand the balance of light mechs being able to take on an assault by skilled pilots, but that shouldn't be the primary role for a scout in an assault map.

[Syllogy]

They are looking at ways to reward scouts.

That being said, actually communicating with your team is a much more effective tool than any mechanic that is built in.

[Hisashi No Oni]

This is part of the silly way they have ECM hooked up. Even if you see them you cant spot/lock them. So with that you kill scouting. They make ECM as intended and you will have scouting again even without reward.

[Khobai]

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They are looking at ways to reward scouts.

Whats the point of rewarding scouts if scouting still isnt a viable role? A team that scouts should have an advantage over a team that doesnt scout. Currently that isnt the case because there's no information worth sending scouts out to obtain that cant be obtained in a less risky way (i.e. 3PV).

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That being said, actually communicating with your team is a much more effective tool than any mechanic that is built in. [/color]

Except there is no easy way to communicate with your team. Expecting players to type everything is absurd. Scouts have no easy way of marking targets. Commanders have no easy way of using the information provided by scouts to assign primary and secondary targets for focus fire. Lack of communication tools is one of the fundamental reasons scouting is worthless.

So how do we strengthen scouting? Aside from better communication tools, which I already covered, NARC would be a good second place to start. Once you NARC an enemy mech they should stay revealed indefinitely until they suffer enough damage to destroy the beacon (which should require way more than 35 damage to destroy). NARC should be the primary method of tracking and keeping tabs on enemy mechs.

So how else do we make scouting worthwhile? Give scouts the ability to find out information thats actually worth the risk. Scouts should be able to "deep scan" enemy mechs and reveal every detail about them (like where their ammo is located). Not only that, but that mech's most recent loadout information should be permanently recorded in your teams c3 computer network, so you no longer have to wait for it to pop up whenever you target it. Its kindve dumb that if you target a mech and see its loadout, then untarget it, then target it again, you have to wait again to see its loadout... the loadout should appear instantly, although updating the information might take a couple seconds (in case a weapon was destroyed for example).

Anyways those are just some ideas.

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This is part of the silly way they have ECM hooked up. Even if you see them you cant spot/lock them. So with that you kill scouting. They make ECM as intended and you will have scouting again even without reward.

Its true and sensor/electronic warfare needs a complete overhaul. For one thing, sensors should detect mechs much farther away than 800m, because if you can already see a mech with your own eyes before its detected on sensors, then sensors arnt doing you any good. ECM also shouldnt grant stealth on par with Null Signature System. If you want that kindve stealth you should have to take all the downsides that come with NSS.

Edited by Khobai, 11 September 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[FupDup]

Part of the problem is that scouting can be done effectively by any heavy that goes over 80 KPH and/or any mech using 3PV.

[Syllogy]

Khobai, on 11 September 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Whats the point of rewarding scouts if scouting still isnt a viable role? A team that scouts should have an advantage over a team that doesnt scout. Currently that isnt the case because there's no information worth sending scouts out to obtain that cant be obtained in a less risky way (i.e. 3PV).



Except there is no easy way to communicate with your team. Expecting players to type everything is absurd. Scouts have no easy way of marking targets. Commanders have no easy way of using the information provided by scouts to assign primary and secondary targets for focus fire. Lack of communication tools is one of the fundamental reasons scouting is worthless.

ERMAGERD!

Guess I'll just have to use Teamspeak until the in-game voice chat is working.

[Khobai]

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Guess I'll just have to use Teamspeak until the in-game voice chat is working.

That only works in 12v12. Because even if you drop in a 4-man you still cant use teamspeak to talk to the other 8 members of your team. So teamspeak is not really a solution except for those doing 12v12.

[BarHaid]

Khobai, on 11 September 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

So how else do we make scouting worthwhile? Give scouts the ability to find out information thats actually worth the risk. Scouts should be able to "deep scan" enemy mechs and reveal every detail about them (like where their ammo is located). Not only that, but that mech's most recent loadout information should be permanently recorded in your teams c3 computer network, so you no longer have to wait for it to pop up whenever you target it. Its kindve dumb that if you target a mech and see its loadout, then untarget it, then target it again, you have to wait again to see its loadout... the loadout should appear instantly, although updating the information might take a couple seconds (in case a weapon was destroyed for example).

This is a great idea! To make it actually have a bit of exclusiveness, I would suggest that it be a Module. And if someone on your team has the Command Console, that data transmits to all teammates. Maybe restrict it to lance members?

edit: You should post this in Feature Suggestions.

Edited by BarHaid, 11 September 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

I'd even take it a little further and allow "scouts" to have better sensor packages, i.e. be able to see the heat level of an enemy mech (maybe scouts get the old style thermal vision?), perhaps longer sensor range by default, and a way to flag a target, i.e. their triangle turns a different color when a scout designates it. That'll let people you don't have voice comms with know that you've got eyes on a target, its high priority, etc.

[Khobai]

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I would suggest that it be a Module.

Yeah what I was thinking was a scanning module, where you would get within X meters of the targeted mech, and then press 'i' or something to scan them (like in the old mechwarrior games where you had to scan things).

Once you scan a mech it would put the enemy mech's exact loadout onto an overlay screen which you could toggle on/off much like the overhead map. And anyone on your team could instantly check the loadouts of all the enemy mechs that have been previously scanned (they would appear in a 4x3 tile pattern). Additionally, it should show other normally hidden details like where that mechs ammo is stored, what modules that mech has installed, etc...

And maybe even allow light mechs to designate specific components of enemy mechs to shoot at. Like if a light mech sees an enemy mech has ammo in its right torso, it can designate the right torso as containing ammo, and an indicator will appear for teammates to see that tells them to shoot there.

I mean theres all kinds of possibilities for how to make scouting a stronger role.

[BarHaid]

Khobai, on 11 September 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

And maybe even allow light mechs to designate specific components of enemy mechs to shoot at. Like if a light mech sees an enemy mech has ammo in its right torso, it can designate the right torso as containing ammo, and an indicator will appear for teammates to see that tells them to shoot there.

OMG SCOUTS R OP!! PLZ NERF SCOUTS!!1!

Just getting that out first.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Epic Fail, on 11 September 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Is there any thoughts on revisiting scouting?

The way I see it now, scouting is in terms of spot target. Which again, as far as I know, revolves around spotting a mech, holding the lock until indirect fire-support hits and then you get the tick.

I believe that this is leading to mechs like the AC/10 spider... or the ac/20 cicada.

Would the ability to gain a targets data be used to garner XP for scouts rather than the indirect support be more efficient for those of us that actually like to scout?

From a lance standpoint, as a scout it is far more important to me and my lance mates to know what is actually coming rather than being able to put a couple hits of LRM onto the target and then bugging out. Or building a mini assault mech to try and take on stragglers. Thile I understand the balance of light mechs being able to take on an assault by skilled pilots, but that shouldn't be the primary role for a scout in an assault map.

You realize that "Real Scouting" is actually a very simple process. You just take your mech forward of your team, find the enemy and report their movements and composition. That it!!! Scouting is no more or no less than this and really any mech can do to, though obviously lights are better at it.

As far as game mechanic, the only real enhancement to assisting with this would be better tools like maybe an automated role call of spotted mechs. Example:

You see the enemy mech and as you put your cursor on each enemy mech, a message is generated to your team:

Target Spotted: Alpha - Jagermech - D3
Target Spotted: Bravo - Centurion - D3
Target Spotted: Charlie - Atlas - D4

So on and so forth. This basically allows light mechs to pretty much continually keep their team notified of what they have seen and where they have seen it. To cut down on the Spam, one a enemy is spotted by a light, it will not generate a new message for 30 seconds.

Basically they just need a tool that allows scouts to keep feeding info to the team. I would probably make these modules and limit them to being used on light mechs plus a select few mediums like the Cicada. I would also make them cheap to aquire.

[Khobai]

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You realize that "Real Scouting" is actually a very simple process. You just take your mech forward of your team, find the enemy and report their movements and composition. That it!!!

Yeah but scouting should be an ongoing role that lasts the entire game. It shouldnt just be "oh I spotted the enemy mechs and spammed the R key". Scouting is a role that should involve not only finding and identifying enemy mechs, but also tagging/narcing them, designating them as targets and finding weakspots, etc... its a role that a light mech should have to keep performing all game.

[Lostdragon]

A long time ago in a galaxy far away the skill tree we have now was a generic placeholder for one that would offer options to specialize in roles like scouting or brawling. Maybe one day we will get those new trees.

[ShotgunWillie]

Khobai, on 11 September 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

That only works in 12v12. Because even if you drop in a 4-man you still cant use teamspeak to talk to the other 8 members of your team. So teamspeak is not really a solution except for those doing 12v12.

Because you can't announce "Charlie Lance is a pre-made, and we will scout" and then designate your fastest typist to hang back with the death ball and relay info to the team via typed chat while the other 3 in the lance relay info to him (or her, I'm all for gender equality, after all) on Teamspeak...

[stjobe]

Lostdragon, on 11 September 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

A long time ago in a galaxy far away the skill tree we have now was a generic placeholder for one that would offer options to specialize in roles like scouting or brawling. Maybe one day we will get those new trees.

Here's a link to what we thought we would get: http://mwomercs.com/...le-warfare-cont

Real scouting, real commanders, real line 'mechs, real roles for everyone - and different roles with different abilities. Scouts could multi-target and tighten indirect fire, but not use thermal imaging or seismic, assaults could use all kinds of vision, but not find out crit location information - it needed a scout to gather that. Only commanders could call in air strikes or artillery. And so on and so forth, a proper role system.

The game would be so much better if they hadn't abandoned this, and it would be so much better if we had some kind of non-voice way of communicating easily with our lance/company. It's absolutely paramount if scouting is ever going to be a functional role.

[Vellinious]

Epic Fail, on 11 September 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Is there any thoughts on revisiting scouting?

The way I see it now, scouting is in terms of spot target. Which again, as far as I know, revolves around spotting a mech, holding the lock until indirect fire-support hits and then you get the tick.

I believe that this is leading to mechs like the AC/10 spider... or the ac/20 cicada.

Would the ability to gain a targets data be used to garner XP for scouts rather than the indirect support be more efficient for those of us that actually like to scout?

From a lance standpoint, as a scout it is far more important to me and my lance mates to know what is actually coming rather than being able to put a couple hits of LRM onto the target and then bugging out. Or building a mini assault mech to try and take on stragglers. Thile I understand the balance of light mechs being able to take on an assault by skilled pilots, but that shouldn't be the primary role for a scout in an assault map.

AC10 Spider? Regardless of the reason, that's just plain stupid. It's slower and has ammo to protect on a mech that has very little armor to protect it. Better off with the PPC Spider...they still go top speed, have better range, and don't have to worry about carrying ammo that goes boom.

Never ceases to amaze me the builds I see people using in PUG matches. /shaking my head

[PEEFsmash]

Syllogy, on 11 September 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

ERMAGERD!

Guess I'll just have to use Teamspeak until the in-game voice chat is working.

Sometimes you just amaze me with your genius. Why didn't I think about getting my whole pug team to come to my teamspeak every single game I play! I'll just spend the first 5 minutes of every game getting them all to my channel, I'm sure they will all come and the enemy will surely let me set this all up, and then we will be good to go!

Edited by PEEFsmash, 12 September 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Khobai]

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Here's a link to what we thought we would get: http://mwomercs.com/...le-warfare-cont

Yeah I remember that, but if I recall that wasnt really a skill tree either, it was just a progression tree... you could still unlock every single skill for every single role.

What the game needs is an actual skill tree that forces your pilot to pick a specialization, because then two people can play the same mech, but have completely different roles... it adds way more diversity to the game.

Edited by Khobai, 13 September 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Syllogy, on 11 September 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

They are looking at ways to reward scouts.

That being said, actually communicating with your team is a much more effective tool than any mechanic that is built in.

Which is the problem. When just talking to someone is the best way of scouting, then your attempt at implementing a scout role has failed hard.

"Look, you guys, we just made this cool video game with different mechs. You can be fire support, brawler, scout-"
"What does the scout do?"
"Talks to his team via headset."
"So... the same as the rest of his team, and the same as every player in every FPS the last 5 years?"
"Yep."
"Boss."

I did see someone make some cool suggestions for how scouting might work, which PGI responded to. Like being able to automatically provide grid coordinates, being able to determine grid coordinates by aiming at any terrain, etc. PGI said they would look into it, and I expect it'll happen any day now, since that was.... 7 months ago, I think.