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Uac/5 Damage Analysis


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#1 Amaris the Usurper

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 09:27 AM

Edit (9/17): Analysis of patch changes added.

Edit: Now with new stuff (at the end).

TL;DR: With a 25% jam probability, the UAC/5 dealt 3.95 DPS on double-shot mode, which was lower than the single-shot value of 4.55. Now, with a 15% probability, it deals 5.23.

Based on experience fighting with and against the UAC/5, it seems to me that it is now moderately overpowered. I present some statistical analysis to support this conclusion and to clear up for the community how to calculate its average DPS, which I don't think has been done before. Basically, my argument for its being overpowered rests on the idea that it was good before and is now significantly better.

First, some definitions:

C = cooldown time for single-shot mode (currently 1.1 s)
D = damage per shot (currently 5)
J = jam probability (between 0 and 1; currently 0.15 and was 0.25)
U = unjam time (currently 5 s)

When you hold down the fire button for double-shot mode, the weapon always fires one shot immediately. It then waits C/2 seconds, and one of two things may happen:
  • There is a probability J that the weapon will jam and be ready to fire again in U seconds. No ammo is used, and no heat is generated.
  • There is a probability 1-J that the weapon will fire another shot and be ready to fire again in C/2 seconds.
Consequently, failure deals D damage and takes C/2+U seconds, while success deals 2*D damage and takes C seconds.

If we make a large number N of double-shot attempts, we expect that there will be J*N failures and (1-J)*N successes. The total damage will be J*N*D+(1-J)*N*2*D, while the time elapsed will be J*N*(C/2+U)+(1-J)*N*C. We can divide the two to find the long-run average DPS. After canceling the N's and combining like terms, we get

DPS = (2-J)*D/((1-J/2)*C+J*U).

Using this formula, we find DPS = 5.23 for J = 0.15 and DPS = 3.95 for J = 0.25. In single-shot mode, DPS = 5/1.1 = 4.55. For comparison, the AC/20 puts out 20/4 = 5 DPS.

Verification: In Testing Grounds, it took 373.6 s to fire 397 shots, for 5*397/373.6 = 5.31 DPS, which is greater than the prediction by about 2%.

Another interesting phenomenon is visible when looking at the expected total damage over time. Rather than tediously working out the theory, I wrote a MATLAB program that simulates (using a random number generator) the UAC/5 behavior described above and records the total damage dealt over time. Each of the curves below is the average of 10,000 separate runs with a single gun.

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In both cases, the expected DPS exceeds the long-run trend to about the same degree up to the 2-second mark. After this, the old UAC/5 goes through a roughly 5-second period of lower-than-average DPS before settling into the long-run trend. By contrast, the new UAC/5 continues to deal damage at the elevated rate up to about the 4-second mark before settling smoothly into the long-run trend.

With the old UAC/5, one could expect a 2-second period of elevated damage, followed by a 5-second period of reduced damage. It would make sense, therefore, to use burst fire when emerging from cover for a quick attack or when engaging a target that would only be visible for a few seconds. Otherwise, you would get not only lower DPS on average in a sustained fight, but also a 5-second window of even worse performance at the beginning--right when you would like to dish out a lot of damage and get a quick kill.

By contrast, burst fire with the new UAC/5 is great for both short and sustained attacks. Extra damage can be pushed out in the initial stages for a (hopeful) quick kill, and, if this doesn't work, one tends to be right at the long-run DPS trend, which is, furthermore, better than the single-shot value.

Conclusion: There are no longer any serious drawbacks to using double-shot mode. The risk of jamming should give a better alpha strike at the cost of reduced long-run DPS, but it now improves both numbers. It also improves everything in between.

It could be argued that the possibility of getting nothing at all and having to wait 5-ish seconds introduces uncertainty that counteracts the added DPS. However, with 2-3 guns, I find that the results are now pretty uniform, enough so that simply assuming I will have the damage and going on the offensive works in the vast majority of cases. Also, it is usually possible to monitor the guns' performance and duck behind cover when they jam, so that maximum DPS is inflicted when actually in contact with the enemy.



Looking at my cumulative damage graph, it occurs to me that the results can be presented more intuitively if we think in terms of the improvement granted by double-shot mode over single-shot mode. Following this line of reasoning, what single-shot mode gives you is D damage every C seconds, and what you hope double-shot mode gives you is 2*D damage every C seconds, so it would make sense just to sample the data every C seconds. What happens in between doesn't matter all that much. Doing this produces the graph below.

Posted Image

The black and red parts are just a smoothed version of the earlier plot; I have also included the single-shot damage trend as a dashed black line. The green lines are for a hypothetical UAC/5 with C = 1.3, J = 0.225, and U = 7.5. Based on my experience, the single-shot rate of the UAC/5 is probably a bit too fast, and the rate of the AC/5 is probably a bit too low; furthermore, Russ has stated that the UAC/5 is just an AC/5 with the ability to double tap at risk, so assigning them both the same base cooldown seems justified. It then remains to adjust the J and U values so that something like the old burst DPS is achieved along with a similar long-run DPS decrease. My only concern is that the 7.5-second unjam is too long, but the chances of a jam are about 2 in 9, and the purpose of double-shotting is to produce a short alpha strike, so it may be OK.

It's also interesting to look at dividing the average cumulative damage on double-shot mode by the cumulative damage on single-shot mode to see how much of a relative advantage double-shotting offers for a given UAC/5. This is shown below for the new and old UAC/5, as well as the hypothetical one described above. For the current J = 0.15 autocannon, double-shotting is clearly preferable to single-shotting.

Posted Image

Finally, if you require that average double-shot DPS be less than single-shot DPS, you can (using the formula above and with some simple algebra) come up with

J > 1/(1/2+U/C).

For U = 5 and C = 1.1 (the current values), this means that J > 19.82%, as Buso Senshi Zelazny found graphically below.



At the suggestion of Itsalrightwithme, I have computed error bars for the cumulative damage graphs above. Each plot is for a different number of guns, but the cumulative damage-per-gun is shown (instead of total damage) to allow better comparison. The plots show the "interdecile range", i.e., you have a 10% chance of getting cumulative damage below the black brackets, 10% above, and 80% within; the black line is the average figure. The red line shows the single-shot UAC/5 trend, and the blue line is the AC/5 trend. As expected, the spread lessens as the number of guns increases. Each was computed from 50,000 trials.

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Post-patch (9/17) analysis follows:

The new average long-run DPS is 3.83, which is only 15% above that of the AC/5.

Here are the same plots as above, but for the new UAC/5 with C = 1.5 and J = 0.2. The single-shot rates of the AC/5 and UAC/5 now correspond, so I have taken away the blue line. The error bars still show the interdecile range.

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Instead of the spread between the 10th and 90th percentiles, we might want to see the 20/100 spread. In other words, the top of the error bar is the maximum possible damage, and the bottom is the amount of damage that we are 80% confident that we will meet or exceed.

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With 3+ guns, we can be ~80% confident that we will meet or exceed the single-shot damage total over 15 seconds of continuous firing. With 4 guns, we can be 90% confident that we will meet or exceed the single-shot total over a 3-second burst.

Edited by Amaris the Usurper, 24 September 2013 - 01:03 PM.


#2 The Boz

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 09:39 AM

Wow, this is... pretty rigorious, thorough, and well thought out. Good job, you!
inb4 "But it's heavier and larger than the AC5, it is supposed to be better!", "Twist your torso to avoid the damage!", "Any other weapon can kill you just the same if you mess up!", "It uses up ammo really fast!", "Taking UAC5s means that your mech is made of paper and slow!", "You have no proof, this is all just theorycraft!"

#3 Deathlike

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 09:42 AM

All I can say is that AC5 needs a cooldown reduction close to or the same as the UAC5 (the UAC5 itself needs its cooldown increased a tad), and that the UAC5's jam rate is in need of a nerf because it is too generous. 20% would fine... not the 15% (1 out of every 7 shots = jam).

Edited by Deathlike, 11 September 2013 - 09:44 AM.


#4 DaZur

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 09:48 AM

View PostThe Boz, on 11 September 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Wow, this is... pretty rigorious, thorough, and well thought out. Good job, you!
inb4 "But it's heavier and larger than the AC5, it is supposed to be better!", "Twist your torso to avoid the damage!", "Any other weapon can kill you just the same if you mess up!", "It uses up ammo really fast!", "Taking UAC5s means that your mech is made of paper and slow!", "You have no proof, this is all just theorycraft!"

Yeah... please do preface any rational commentary / discussion so you can unceremoniously dismiss it. :D

@ OP... Nice research, analysis and sourcing. No refuting empirical data.

That said, I don't thing anyone is refuting that the latest patch over-corrected the UAC/5 and your data actually supports the premise that the recent buff broke the balance mechanism, that being the "sustained DPS".

In short... Good weapon made overtly better by mitigating it's global balance mechanism.

#5 Amaris the Usurper

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 09:51 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 11 September 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

All I can say is that AC5 needs a cooldown reduction close to or the same as the UAC5 (the UAC5 itself needs its cooldown increased a tad), and that the UAC5's jam rate is in need of a nerf because it is too generous. 20% would fine... not the 15% (1 out of every 7 shots = jam).

I agree.

#6 valrond

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:24 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 11 September 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

All I can say is that AC5 needs a cooldown reduction close to or the same as the UAC5 (the UAC5 itself needs its cooldown increased a tad), and that the UAC5's jam rate is in need of a nerf because it is too generous. 20% would fine... not the 15% (1 out of every 7 shots = jam).


Agreed, they should both have 1.5s cooldown, and the UAC5 about a 20% jam rate. Oh, and make the UAC% default shooting mode the standard, non-double tap. If you want to double tap, do it manually.

#7 The Boz

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:25 AM

The jam chance should be removed totally, because it will NEVER result in a reliable, non-random, unexploitable mechanic. UACs should have higher rates of fire than their AC counterparts, but at the cost of weapon spread, preventing pinpoint component damage at over 200 meters or so.

#8 DaZur

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:27 AM

View PostThe Boz, on 11 September 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

The jam chance should be removed totally, because it will NEVER result in a reliable, non-random, unexploitable mechanic. UACs should have higher rates of fire than their AC counterparts, but at the cost of weapon spread, preventing pinpoint component damage at over 200 meters or so.

I like the solution but you're going to catch the wrath of the "skill purists" who balk at any form of random / chance aim-point deviation... :)

#9 Damocles69

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:51 AM

Numbers and math look incredibly sound. Nice work man!!! Maybe email this to Garth or Paul or send em a PM with this info.

#10 The Boz

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:51 AM

Oh, the ones that are happy with the random macro-avoided DPS of the UAC5 as it stands now?
I can't think of any other way to balance it as the "higher ROF AC" from lore that makes it reliable...

#11 Dan Nashe

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:52 AM

From my experience the weight and range don't necessarily balance so much as they affect flavor, because hard point limitations reduce the importance of raw weight and it's pretty easy to get into 300 meters (I.e. most people would take an ac 20 over an ac 10, an ml and 2 dhs).

Personally I think every ac should try a balance around 4 dps.
The bigger acs weigh more but have better alphas and burst dps.
In other words:
AC 20: increase recycle time to 5.0 seconds
AC 10: as is
UAC 5: Increase recycle to 1.25 and make jam chance whatever yields 4 dps statistically for always double firing)(I believe this is about 12.5 percent with a 5 second jam. Jam chance and length of jam can both be adjusted for feel)
AC 5ç reduce recycle time to 1.25 seconds
Ac 2: as is.

Assuming pgi feels uac 5s are too powerful and ac 10s are closer to ideal. All ac dps can be tweaked up or down to balance with lasers and srms.

Note that a ll is 2.12 dps, a lpl is 2.75, a ppc is 3.33 and a gauss is like 3.
Srms spread damage, so really hard to compare.

As for secondary characteristics, alpha > burst > range, so higher weight still gets you better weapons one on one. (I'd rather have an ac 20 than a uac 5 if the uac 5 did 4 dps too if I didn't get 5 extra tons with the lighter ac).

Note that this makes the ac 5 the right choice if you intenf to macro and NEVER double shot, and now the ultra 5 has the option of much higher burst (8 shots in 5 seconds, then a jam) but suffers from ammo problems and slightly shorter range (ac 5 has slightly better range right now).

Again: these numbers are based on the assumption that pgi feels all weapons should be closer to the 10, 5, and 2. I'm just balancing acs against each other, and I think everyone agrees the 20 and uac 5 are both a lot better than the 2, 5 and 10.
And
This is based off both the raw dps (theoretical math) and anecdotal evidence about how often each weapon is used in reality and my personal feelings on what would get me to use all 6 acs.

Edited by DanNashe, 11 September 2013 - 11:08 AM.


#12 Mechteric

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:54 AM

I think UAC5 should be set to the same cooldown/cycle rate as standard AC5 first, then they can go and adjust its % chance to jam accordingly.

#13 Almond Brown

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 11:03 AM

Given a 3 UAC5 mount, the Jam mechanism is not even a concern. Macros aside, firing 2 on full auto, until they jam then switch fire to the third gun, also on full auto, and you will find a high likelyhood that the 3rd gun will continue to fire until the first 2 guns become unjammed. Rinse and repeat. Works with 2 as well but with a DPS drop of course. :)

#14 Lonestar1771

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 11:04 AM

View PostThe Boz, on 11 September 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

The jam chance should be removed totally, because it will NEVER result in a reliable, non-random, unexploitable mechanic. UACs should have higher rates of fire than their AC counterparts, but at the cost of weapon spread, preventing pinpoint component damage at over 200 meters or so.


Please this. The accuracy decrease could, with logic, be explained by the barrels heating up from constant fire. Maybe add in a mechanic that removes jamming altogether but greatly reduces accuracy the longer you hold the fire button. Which would keep it in line with real world weapons like the SAW. It would be used as a suppression weapon. You short burst it to maintain accuracy or spray and pray to keep the other team hiding both reduce the dps and provide a mechanic most gamers are used to and understand.

#15 Buso Senshi Zelazny

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 12:20 PM

Another MATLAB enthusiast! You inspired me to do a little analysis on my own. Since most people seem to think that a 20% jam rate with the current cool down would "feel right', I wanted to check it out.

Here is a graph of the DPS of a UAC/5 in constant double fire mode:
Posted Image
Looks like a 20% chance to jam in double fire mode would yield almost identical DPS to firing in single shot mode. The exact percentage would be 19.82%, but 20 is close enough :)

I think this backs up what the community seems to be saying, that a 20% jam rate would "feel right". You would get a negligible difference in long term DPS, making the double fire mechanic more situational, i.e only use it if your target is heading towards cover, or if you are ducking back into cover and you want to squeeze out a little bit more damage.

If you want to change the cooldown to 1.25 to try and bring it in line with the other autocannons, then the graph looks like so:
Posted Image
With a 1.25 cooldown, a 22.22% chance to jam would yield in identical DPS. Not sure I like this so much, the UAC/5 should have higher DPS. I'd rather leave the cool down for the UAC/5 as it is now, bump the jam chance up to 20%, and then drop the cool down of the AC5 to 1.25.

#16 TOGSolid

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:00 PM

*golf clap*

Great thread Amaris! Number crunching like this is always a great way to straight up kill any "is it too good" debate so having solid figures to point at is super handy.

Quote

Personally I think every ac should try a balance around 4 dps.
The bigger acs weigh more but have better alphas and burst dps.
In other words:
AC 20: increase recycle time to 5.0 seconds
AC 10: as is
UAC 5: Increase recycle to 1.25 and make jam chance whatever yields 4 dps statistically for always double firing)(I believe this is about 12.5 percent with a 5 second jam. Jam chance and length of jam can both be adjusted for feel)
AC 5ç reduce recycle time to 1.25 seconds
Ac 2: as is.

Assuming pgi feels uac 5s are too powerful and ac 10s are closer to ideal. All ac dps can be tweaked up or down to balance with lasers and srms.


I really, really like this suggestion.

Edited by TOGSolid, 11 September 2013 - 01:00 PM.


#17 Shadey99

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:25 PM

View PostBuso Senshi Zelazny, on 11 September 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

With a 1.25 cooldown, a 22.22% chance to jam would yield in identical DPS. Not sure I like this so much, the UAC/5 should have higher DPS. I'd rather leave the cool down for the UAC/5 as it is now, bump the jam chance up to 20%, and then drop the cool down of the AC5 to 1.25.


True, but how about 1.25 cooldown and a 18% jam chance? Very very close to the DPS @ current with 20% (4.5 vs ~4.53). Ironically it's also pure TT jam chance.

Personally much like I suggested with lasers (except in reverse), I think the UAC should have a bar that builds up until a jam. This would give player control of the jam mechanic much like I suggest the beam duration of lasers should be player controllable. Now having said that the amount of the bar that builds up per shot can be random, so each round fired can build up X+R% of the scale. Releasing the button would start to drop off the jam rate.

I would also like to see the mouse press act as a toggle for the UAC rapid fire, so a tap and hold fires at AC5 rate with no jam rate. Tap, release, tap and hold engages rapid fire mode (1/2 AC5 fire rate) and the jam chance builds up.

Random chance mechanisms that are either on or off with no feedback to the player are a bad idea.

Edited by Shadey99, 11 September 2013 - 05:15 PM.


#18 Monky

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:28 PM

At this point I'm in favor of scarpping the random jamming altogether, any jam rate except an extremely high one is abusable with macros as has been proven over and over again.

I say add a heat meter specific to the UAC's, when it passes the cap, you jam. Tune the # of shots you can get away with from there.

Edited by Monky, 11 September 2013 - 01:28 PM.


#19 TOGSolid

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:34 PM

View PostMonky, on 11 September 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

At this point I'm in favor of scarpping the random jamming altogether, any jam rate except an extremely high one is abusable with macros as has been proven over and over again.

I say add a heat meter specific to the UAC's, when it passes the cap, you jam. Tune the # of shots you can get away with from there.

Buffing the AC5 or pulling the UAC/5 back in line with the AC/5 would make macro UACs pretty much a none issue.

Edited by TOGSolid, 11 September 2013 - 01:35 PM.


#20 Monky

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:41 PM

View PostTOGSolid, on 11 September 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Buffing the AC5 or pulling the UAC/5 back in line with the AC/5 would make macro UACs pretty much a none issue.


I don't really follow your logic there, if you can accomplish higher DPS than single firing while avoiding a jam through a macro, it will always be better to run the macro





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