124 replies to this topic

[Túatha Dé Danann]

There are certain mech chassis that simply cannot mount FF - in most cases, these are assaults. If you put in Endo-Steel on Heavies, you already hit a mark where you have to be very creative in your build-ups in order to not run out of crit slots before a loadout makes sense. either you do not have enough space for DHS, ammo or you must downgrade to another engine.

The point is, that there is a certain breakpoint at about 50-60 tons, where we do not have the Crits anymore to fill in Ferro in any useful manner. This means, that mechs with a slight higher weight-class (lets say 70 tons) immediately see a sharp drop in their armor protection compared to one weight-class below (lets say 60 tons), meaning they are bigger, slower and have the same armor protection.

This is not good. Increasing the max. amount of armor points this way will cripple all assaults, as they are much slower, but do not show the armor values they should have. And they need that protection, because they are BIG and SLOW. So, from my point of view, this is a "No". What I could think about is to reduce either the amounts of crits (14 crits are pretty hefty) or to slighty increase the weight-saving ratio upwards.

In general, a relative armor increase benefits Lights the most and Assaults the least. In my honest opinion, I even think we should introduce a non-linear armor-rating, so that Lights have 2x the armor protection of the BT-rules (like we have now) and Assaults up to 2.5x of that value. I see assaults dropping like flies, where lights take the same damage (Spider...) and still stand. This has two reasons:
1) The Hitboxes are so small, that a lot of damage goes into oblivion (Laser and SRM)
2) Lights are in general too small for their tonnage (A spider would need to have about 1/3 of the volume of an Atlas, but we see something like 1/20)

If we outbalance the size of Lights relative to assaults with their tonnage, then we can go on in terms of giving a general boost to armor. Right now, Lights soak up far too much damage aside from pinpoint-weapons - which is also a reason why they are overused.

Fixing Lasers and SRM, Light-Hitboxes and their size and then we are good to go. I think that the size and hit-registration of for example a Raven is very good - beside its legs. Which may be the reason why you see it so rarely, because you cannot abuse it like you can for the Spider.

Edited by Shevchen, 14 July 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[John80sk]

Most of those arguing against it really don't seem to understand the current state of the game. 25-60t mechs are not in a good place now. There is a reason why the queue is 60-80% heavies/assaults.

The only real problem I see with this is clan mechs. For example the Timbertart being able to frontload more gunside/CT armor would be pretty problematic. Of course this could be an IS only change, which seems reasonable enough seeing as how Clan mech's only pay for ferro with 7 crit slots vs the IS 14.

Good idea though OP, you've got my vote.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

The problem with Lights right now is, that they cannot exploit the hell out of the broken mechanics as they could before, and thus you see people trolling in other chassis.

Imagine this: You see a bunch of enemy mechs in front of you, in a nice fireline and you sit in a spider - you have ECM and lasers. You just run in front of all these mechs, fire your lasers and are back in cover before you can take any serious damage. In BT rules, you would be dead 4 times by now.
Now try that again with a centurion. You have more armor and more weapons - you should perform better in that thing right? But no, where the spider survives, you die. The panda makes a sad face.

With the introduction of Clan weapons, that spread a little more, spiders have a problem. More of the DPS comes through, meaning they die as well as Centurions.

This is how it SHOULD be. You do not run with a 30 ton mech in front of 8 and think you might survive. The Locust is the prime example on how the pilot a light. Or the Raven. These both mechs are working as they should - which means: No cheap exploits of hitboxes and HRS.

The reason you see so few light and mediums be played right now, is because next to 90% of all players playing these mechs went on the bandwagon playing Foo-tactics. Now that they are invalid, they realize, that their tactics were as intelligent as a potato and go to the next chassis, where they hopefully do not suck as much. But that does not change on how you should pilot a Light or Medium mech. You just do not survive a frontal assault in a light anymore. Because you are a freaking Light.

edit: Back to topic
We do not need an artificial boost of armor for Lights or Mediums. Lights are scouts and should only engage on long or medium ranges. They lose a lot of potential damage output, but can re-balance that with spotting. They can get a full wagon of XP and money just by spotting - and thus they should do that.

Mediums are best used as fast flankers. Where the main group advances, the Mediums are fast enough to flank enemy mechs opening a second frontline the enemy cannot ignore or they die. You could of course also play a slow medium that is equipped with a weapon loadout similar to a heavy, but then you may notice, that your armor protection is so thin, that you still have to rely on hit&run.

The pilots using Lights and Mediums do exactly that. There are people out there with brains and they show that it is still possible. They are just harder to use.

Edited by Shevchen, 15 July 2014 - 06:22 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I think its fair trade, as of now, there is absolutely no viable reason to choose FF over ES other than having extra slots to spend.

If there was a choice of a little less extra tonnage for a little more armor, I say hell yes.

Make it an actual useful choice instead, a tactical decision with a real purpose.

Granted it would benefit Light/Medium armor values the most, but if there is a real benefit for Heavies and Assaults to also have a reason to use it over ES only builds it just opens up more dynamic choices IMO, and thats a good thing.

The question I think is most important, is would FF add a pool of armor that allows you to put it anywhere you want? Or would it be a general bolstering over the entire mech body?

For instance, on a Quickdraw that is known for taking excess leg damage, would it be able to put all the extra armor from that pool into its legs to give it a little better strength there where it really needs it?

Edited by Mister D, 16 July 2014 - 09:07 PM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

The thing is, that Lights and Mediums are already the Mechs that profit most from FF, as they are currently the only mechs that are equipped with it. So they save additional tonnage, which heavies and assault don't. That is already a (hidden) buff for Lights and Mediums. On Clan Mechs, you see that this buff is also expanded to the Heavy chassis (while sadly, we only have a single mech in that region, which on the other hand also explains, why the Mad Cat is so prominent right now - beside having the optimal tonnage for a heavy mech)

Mechs like the Shadowhawk were immensely often used, as they had two things:
- 55 tons for a medium
- FF that saved them 1,5 tons, which is a lot for a medium mech trying to tweak its loadout. FF enables Lights and Mediums to get full armor protection you otherwise would only get by sacrificing weapon loadout.

So in the end, the weight savings are already a buff I agree the most to, as they compress a little the chassis spread from the tonnage and loadout-perspective. I think, FF is already good as it is. And Light benefit from two things: Their small size and their high speed. If you do not take advantage of these things, you should not go into a light mech.

I've seen a lot of spiders standing still while shooting on other mechs. Honestly, they deserve to be one-shotted. Try that in a Locust, or a Raven.

Edited by Shevchen, 15 July 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[kosmos1214]

well iv ben puting a lot of thought in this and i think what is needed is to change the way armor is mounted
for example on my catapul a1 the arms can mount 40 points of std armor each this armer waighs 1.2 tons on each arm
but what i feel we shuld be doing is mounting 1.2 tons of std armor that gives 40 points of protection

so then with ff i could still mount 1.2 tons of armor but insted of giveing 40 points it would give 44.8 points of protection
and if i wanted to use ff to save waight i would then mount 12% less armor and still have 40 points oh and for this system we would be mounting armor in chunks id sujest each chunk being 1/20 of a ton and giveing 1.6 point of protection
it would give us all most as much control as we have now and allow for ff to be useful

[SaltBeef]

Any buffs would have to be across the board not favoring one side or the other. No inner sphere only buffs. Buff all mechs leave weapons the same and the game gets alot more interesting. Ammo and precise targeting become key to ballistic builds. No ammo buff.... better not forget to bring backup energy weapons.

[CocoaJin]

How does FF suck? It provides the same protection for less weight. It doesn't seem it was intended as a buff in protection, but instead, away to squeeze out more heat efficiency, weapons or adding utility modules on a mech.

So yeah, if you measure it for what it wasn't intended for, I guess it could be perceived as sucking. But I'd argue it's the assessment that sucks.

Personally, I think being able to mount another medium laser on a light(that can easily be a 33-50% boost on an IS light), or equip more heat sinks on high heat build as a phenomenal boost.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love more armor if I can get it, but no need to bad talk FF as scape goat to make up an argument to justify getting it.

I'd be more inclined to say leave it alone, especially in light of Modo 44's statement that it would catapult mechs up a class. If this is accurate, it's a important consideration in an argument against it.

Edited by CocoaJin, 27 July 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[kosmos1214]

CocoaJin, on 27 July 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

How does FF suck? It provides the same protection for less weight. It doesn't seem it was intended as a buff in protection, but instead, away to squeeze out more heat efficiency, weapons or adding utility modules on a mech.

So yeah, if you measure it for what it wasn't intended for, I guess it could be perceived as sucking. But I'd argue it's the assessment that sucks.

Personally, I think being able to mount another medium laser on a light(that can easily be a 33-50% boost on an IS light), or equip more heat sinks on high heat build as a phenomenal boost.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love more armor if I can get it, but no need to bad talk FF as scape goat to make up an argument to justify getting it.

I'd be more inclined to say leave it alone, especially in light of Modo 44's statement that it would catapult mechs up a class. If this is accurate, it's a important consideration in an argument against it.

here why it sucks endo steal is in the game its fine in the tt do to endos cost but in mwo where every mech it maxed out theres no choice in less you are a light or maby a med so the fact is ff needs some kinda of buff

to give an example on my catapult endo gave me 5ish tons at the costt of 14 slots where as ff would have given me
1.5ish tons at the cost of 14 slots now this might not be exact as im do ing this from memory but the point is here ff needs some kinda buff to make it use full to some thing other then lights and meds

[CocoaJin]

kosmos1214, on 27 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

here why it sucks endo steal is in the game its fine in the tt do to endos cost but in mwo where every mech it maxed out theres no choice in less you are a light or maby a med so the fact is ff needs some kinda of buff

to give an example on my catapult endo gave me 5ish tons at the costt of 14 slots where as ff would have given me
1.5ish tons at the cost of 14 slots now this might not be exact as im do ing this from memory but the point is here ff needs some kinda buff to make it use full to some thing other then lights and meds

But when you compare FF and Endo for lights and mediums you get the opposite results, FF provides more tonnage than Endo, easily 2-3x more. Some of my desired chassis get less than .5 tons from using Endo. Perhaps FF is not the optimal choice for your chassis, but it's just fine for mine. So overall, I can't see how one can say FF sucks...anything sucks when applied outside its area of strength. I'll tell you what, I'm not going hang an argument on Endo sucking based on its poor performance on my lights. Apparently, it's just best used on heavier mechs, just FF appears to be best used on lights and mediums. Different strokes for different folks...err, mechs.

FF is fine, leave it be.

Edited by CocoaJin, 27 July 2014 - 08:39 PM.

[John80sk]

I think people may be misunderstanding this idea (or I'm misunderstanding it, but I don't think I am).

The suggestion is not to make ferro increase armor by 12%, but increase the maximum armor cap by 12%. So by actually filling out this armor, it would not provide the weight reduction bonuses that it currently does.

CocoaJin, on 27 July 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

But when you compare FF and Endo for lights and mediums you get the opposite results, FF provides more tonnage than Endo, easily 2-3x more. Some of my desired chassis get less than .5 tons from using Endo. Perhaps FF is not the optimal choice for your chassis, but it's just fine for mine. So overall, I can't see how one can say FF sucks...anything sucks when applied outside its area of strength. I'll tell you what, I'm not going hang an argument on Endo sucking based on its poor performance on my lights. Apparently, it's just best used on heavier mechs, just FF appears to be best used on lights and mediums. Different strokes for different folks...err, mechs.

FF is fine, leave it be.

Nothing you said was correct... no mech gains more benefit from ferro over endo, some mechs are able to equip both as they have more crit slots than they are able to make effective use of.

[kosmos1214]

John80sk, on 27 July 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

I think people may be misunderstanding this idea (or I'm misunderstanding it, but I don't think I am).

The suggestion is not to make ferro increase armor by 12%, but increase the maximum armor cap by 12%. So by actually filling out this armor, it would not provide the weight reduction bonuses that it currently does.


Nothing you said was correct... no mech gains more benefit from ferro over endo, some mechs are able to equip both as they have more crit slots than they are able to make effective use of.

thank you and yes u hit the idea right on the head

[CocoaJin]

John80sk, on 27 July 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

I think people may be misunderstanding this idea (or I'm misunderstanding it, but I don't think I am).

The suggestion is not to make ferro increase armor by 12%, but increase the maximum armor cap by 12%. So by actually filling out this armor, it would not provide the weight reduction bonuses that it currently does.


Nothing you said was correct... no mech gains more benefit from ferro over endo, some mechs are able to equip both as they have more crit slots than they are able to make effective use of.

You are right, I re-checked, I was incorrect. FF doesn't provide more than Endo for lights or mediums. That being said, FF is still beneficial for lights where running out of slots isnt as much of an issue and even 1/2 ton of free weight after squeezing another laser or heat sink is a nice perk so you can put some armor back on. Crit padding is nice too if it works that way.

[kosmos1214]

yah for lights and some meds that 1/2 ton or ton is a big help my 1st mech was a kintaro 18 after all

but i feel that as a whole ff needs some kind of help / buff because from what iv seen in builds it seems like if you are 35 tons + ff
becomes to situational in the battletech bordgame ff has a big place do endos cost but here in mwo cost is more of a how long will it take me to pay for it then a real limiting factor and at 14 slots for ether endo or ff for some thing like 7 out of every 10 mechs there is no real choice in less they have 14 slots they don't need then they take both all i want is endo vs ff to be a choice as it is there is no real choice here
and please under stand i dont want ff to be broken but i do want to see it become a real choice

Edited by kosmos1214, 04 August 2014 - 05:41 PM.

[ProfessorD]

Applying a percentage increase to maximum armor would be a much larger benefit to larger mechs. Although this is pretty much a straight buff to light mechs, it wouldn't be useless to heavier ones, since +12% of a much larger amount of armor is much more valuable than +12% of very little armor. For assault mech pilots that choose to use this modified FF, it offers a much larger buff than it would offer a light mech, so the choice between Endo and FF would be more meaningful. That's the goal, so at least for IS mechs, I completely support this idea.

I'm more skeptical about applying this kind of change to Clan mechs, since you never have a choice between ES or FF anyway, but I don't think I'd oppose providing Clans an equivalent effect.

[kosmos1214]

yah in many ways on this idea the elephant in the room on this idea is clan mechs but on the other hand all it might do is give clan mechs a little more option on customization which at this point is kinda limited from my under standing
could a clan mech owner comment on this as i dont own a clan mech

[Kaeb Odellas]

I don't understand this notion that this would be a flat buff to lights. Yes, lights are usually able to fit both FF and Endo, but right now FF is only good for saving just a tiny bit of weight for your builds. If they want increased protection, they have to give up that weight savings to slot in more armor, which means compromise. All this would do is make FF a decent alternative to Endo. You pick either pure weight savings, or the possibility of more armor protection for the same weight. Right now, FF is purely a weight-saving measure, and an inferior one at that.

As for the Clans, this would affect every clan mech but the Nova and Dire Wolf, but they'd still have to pay in tonnage for the extra protection, so it's a tradeoff.

CocoaJin, on 03 August 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

Crit padding is nice too if it works that way.

I don't think Endo and FF slots count for crits.

[Fire and Salt]

FF does not suck, and it does not need a buff.

Just because you logically equip endo steel first in a cost-is-no-object build, does not mean FF is useless.



FF offers slight additional tonnage gains to mechs that have lots of free space. If you only have a little free space, equip just endo.

Working as intended IMO.








...

Also, this would totally be a buff to light mechs and clan mechs. Yes, the tonnage would be a tradeoff, but giving additional options is always a buff, unless the option is so bad that it is never used.

Are there any jenner pilots here that wouldn't sacrifice 1 point from each arm and side torso to add 2 points to the CT and 1 to each leg?

Edited by Fire and Salt, 06 August 2014 - 12:35 AM.

[kosmos1214]

im am not saying that this idea isn't a buff it is most choices are
the real question is it reasonable

[kosmos1214]

bump