173 replies to this topic

[Sadistic Savior]

Eximar, on 16 September 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

If you are truly going to maintain that lots of people do it in every match, that you can't prevent FF and it's the victim's fault, and that apologizing is a bad thing, then I surrender. No reason to discuss it any further...

I kinda agree. I don't know what the big deal is. You're not going to convince people not to do it. At best you'll convince them to be more careful.

This is not a new issue. it has been on-going forever. And people still do it every game. I see it all the time.

[Sadistic Savior]

Tesunie, on 16 September 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Rage. Laziness. Doesn't matter. You penalize your team because you had a "minor hiccup".

Sorry. It's not intentional. And it isn't going to stop. You can prevent it if you really want to.

Quote

I've been friendly fired to the point I almost lost a leg before, and I didn't leave.

Your sacrifice was compeltely forgotten by the next game. No one cared. Not trying to be mean, but thats the reality. If you had quit and started a new game, no one would have cared either.

This is randomized team deathmatch right now. It is basically Quake with teams. All teammates might as well be generic AI placeholders. All this will probably change with CW, but right now, it makes no difference at all what you do.

Quote

I would never quit a match because I "saw someone I didn't like on my team".

Just sayin, you have that option. You're not forced to play with anyone you don't like.

Quote

Alternatives? Of you leaving me when I might need you most? It ruins the fun of the game for me

It doesn't have to. Quit and start a new game. No damage, and no pissed off teammates.

Quote

if you purposefully take action to hinder the game for other players, it is called griefing.

Griefing does not mean what you think it means.

If I am not deliberately shooting you, it is not griefing. I am not shooting with the intent of ruining your game. But if you really think it is, you could always report me.

Quote

I know I've accidentally discharged my weapons after playing Guild Wars 2 for too long between. Got so use to changing my camera angles with the right mouse button, I tried to do it here and shot my second weapon groupings.

OMG! You were totally griefing! Because intent doesn't matter, right?

Quote

Time to load and time to exit? Same with starting a match and exiting because of friendly fire.

Exactly. Which would make sense if I was hitting people a lot. But since I virtually never do, there is nothing the training grounds can offer me except another delay.

Testing grounds takes too long IMO. Sorry. I am willing to take the risk of hitting you to avoid having to use it.

[DEMAX51]

There is so much idiocy in this thread it's unbelievable.

If we're in the middle of a brawl and you accidentally shoot me, I can forgive that. It happens (though, personally, if someone moves into my line of fire, I'll do my best to aim my lasers above them to do as little damage as possible).

But if you shoot me at the start of a game, that is absolutely nobody's fault but yours. You want to test your weapons, or even just hear the cool sound they make? Fine. Do it. But it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to make sure you're aiming away from your teammates, and it's as simple as that. YOU are the one pressing FIRE, YOU are the one who has to make sure there are no teammates in front of you. It's not my fault if you're too lazy to make sure you've got a clear shot.

edit: And if the person you shoot decides to turn around and headshot you, you've got it coming.

Edited by DEMAX51, 16 September 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Sadistic Savior]

DEMAX51, on 16 September 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

You want to test your weapons, or even just hear the cool sound they make? Fine. Do it. But it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to make sure you're aiming away from your teammates

I take precautions. They are not always 100% effective. If a light is zipping in front of me, accidents might happen. But I do try to avoid damaging them.

Quote

It's not my fault if you're too lazy to make sure you've got a clear shot.

It is not my fault that they are too lazy to go around me.

Quote

edit: And if the person you shoot decides to turn around and headshot you, you've got it coming.

They can try. So far no one has been successful.

If they are successful, they will get tagged by the system for a team kill, not me. So they are only hurting themselves anyway.

[Tesunie]

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Sorry. It's not intentional. And it isn't going to stop. You can prevent it if you really want to.

I can prevent it by, according to you, standing still the whole game so I don't "accidentally" run in front of your field of view and get shot by a teammate. Please tell me how this logic works. You press the fire button. You are the one aiming the weapons. You are the one not using the testing grounds as they are intended. But it is all my fault for being a fast mech trying to move into a good position to help the team win the match. Really?

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Your sacrifice was compeltely forgotten by the next game. No one cared. Not trying to be mean, but thats the reality. If you had quit and started a new game, no one would have cared either.

This is randomized team deathmatch right now. It is basically Quake with teams. All teammates might as well be generic AI placeholders. All this will probably change with CW, but right now, it makes no difference at all what you do.

It makes a difference. I have reported people who, every time I see them play, DC before the match even starts. If I see the same name often enough, and I always see them disconnected, I'm going to remember that name and report it. I don't care if I see it before the game starts, or shortly after the game starts. If I see it too often, I report.

It's called building a reputation for yourself. I sometimes have dropped with the same person in a match for several matches in a row. Even to the point where I greeted them at the start of the match. It can make a difference. And if it doesn't matter for the next game, it matters for THAT ONE GAME. When you have 2 or 3 people disconnect, you end up with a very frustrating game. A DC is as bad as a team kill, and almost as bad as friendly fire.

You fail to consider that other people are behind these screens. Those other mechs are piloted by other people, not a computer. They deserve some respect.

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Just sayin, you have that option. You're not forced to play with anyone you don't like.

Sure, it's an option, but it's a poor option and an excuse. All it does it hurt the game, hurt your team, and waste your own time as you have to unload from a game and reload into another game. Wouldn't it still be better to test your own weapons in the testing grounds if you are going to have to load and exit a game? Would save a lot of people headaches.

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

It doesn't have to. Quit and start a new game. No damage, and no pissed off teammates.

Instead, you get more people upset with you, let down your team, and treat other people like trash to be disposed of or left behind when things don't happen to please you. I'd rather thought other humans deserved more respect than that. I'd rather try to salvage a game and help other people if I can.

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Griefing does not mean what you think it means.

If I am not deliberately shooting you, it is not griefing. I am not shooting with the intent of ruining your game. But if you really think it is, you could always report me.

Well, with that paraphrased section, yes. If you took the whole paragraph, or even three, it makes more sense. Reposting for you to read it:

Tesunie, on 16 September 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Rage. Laziness. Doesn't matter. You penalize your team because you had a "minor hiccup". I've been friendly fired to the point I almost lost a leg before, and I didn't leave. I've already loaded in, and the team is counting on me to do my part. I might be angry (even after an apology, but an apology eases it and makes me willing to still help you), but you and me are not the team. By you leaving for any reason before your mech's demise, you hinder the team. Even if you are left with a single point of health left on your mech and you can still move, you can still help. Be a distraction. Try to cap. If you still have weapons, try to shoot enemies before you die. Even a handicapped mech can still help farther the team's position.

I would never quit a match because I "saw someone I didn't like on my team". I would never hinder my team, even a bunch of strangers, because of a personal matter between me and another mechwarrior. If anything, I try to ignore that one player, go on with the match, and fight my own way. Just had a match where I had someone I knew from the forums (and didn't like here) in the match. I played anyway, and watched as he died very quickly. (He was on the enemy team anyway, but even then, I just ignored him and did what I needed to do.)

Alternatives? Of you leaving me when I might need you most? It ruins the fun of the game for me, and if you purposefully take action to hinder the game for other players, it is called griefing. Even the friendly fire dealt at the start of a match can be considered griefing, especially if one does it over and over again. (I will give, accidents happen. We aren't talking about accidents, but "accidents" that come from "test firing weapons" in a clearly bad area and time to do so.) To prevent this from happening, just test your weapons on the testing grounds, as intended, or turn and face a wall. There is little excuse for shooting a fellow teammate for any reason at the start of the match (some exceptions may apply).

You, leaving a match prematurely, when it isn't caused by a bug outside of your control, is a form of griefing. http://mwomercs.com/...79#entry2753479

Quote

Non-Participation
Any MechWarrior who willfully or repeatedly-

• Fails to engage the enemy or mission objectives; or
  
• Disconnects their BattleMech during combat;

Is guilty of Absence without ‘Mech and shall be moderated.

You are not suppose to leave a match till your mech no longer functions willingly and knowingly by your own actions. The very act of leaving a match willingly is purposefully hindering your team, which is a form of griefing.

Shooting your weapons in a live fire situation in an area that is likely to still hit a teammate even when you try not to, can (key word can) be a form of griefing. They added the testing ground for a reason. You should have no need to test your weapons in the middle of a match, unless a bug reset your weapon configurations.

If I saw you shooting me or teammates, even accidentally, and I see it happen "often enough" for me to have concerns, I will report you (you meaning the offender, not really you personally). If I see you attacking a friendly mech, intentionally and fully, I will defend that mech and report you after the match.

Accidental shooting of allies should be so rare of an even that no one should see it happen enough by the same user to bother reporting. If it happens often enough, even accidentally, to cause someone to pause and report, then the accidents are happening far too frequently than is "accidentally" possible.

Of course, all this possible "accidental" weapons fire and friendly fire hits could, once more, be completely prevented by users going to the testing grounds to test their weapons.

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

OMG! You were totally griefing! Because intent doesn't matter, right?

If it happens once, no. It was my mistake and my bad and I will own up to it and admit it. If I keep doing it, keep damaging people, and it happened in more than a very very rare match, then it is a problem and should either be addressed, or reported. Once, with apology normally, is an accident and you just have to move on. If you see the same name doing it all the time or it isn't so rare for it to happen, then something is wrong.

PS: You need to learn the definition of "griefing". http://en.wikipedia....ipedia:Griefing

Quote

Griefing is the act of chronically causing grief to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting the immersion of another player in their gameplay.

You leaving the game, or accidentally (and consistently) shooting teammates is a form of griefing. Who's to say if your one shot was really an "accident"? Who is to know why you have DCed? Someone could be faking an "accident" to grief, when really it was intentional.

Intent does matter, but there is a point where even intent no longer matters if the player continues to preform the same, hazardous, action that produces similar results and continues to produce grief to their fellow teammates. If you insist on shooting your weapons first thing in the game, and even if honestly accidental, you continue to shoot friendly mechs, then it is a danger to the team and you are, even if unintentionally, griefing the team.

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Exactly. Which would make sense if I was hitting people a lot. But since I virtually never do, there is nothing the training grounds can offer me except another delay.

Testing grounds takes too long IMO. Sorry. I am willing to take the risk of hitting you to avoid having to use it.

If you do not seem to hit people in your live action weapon tests, than there is no problem with you personally. However, testing grounds can test your heat dissipation before you enter into combat, so you can see how quick a mech cools and if you might have problems. It also lets you configure your weapon groups with no risk to your team.

You are willing to risk hitting me because you are lazy and too impatient to go to the testing ground to properly test your weapons, yet it is "my fault" for walking "in your line of fire". How is this making sense to you? Explain, very carefully and thoroughly, why it is my fault, no mater what mech I am piloting, that you shot me while you tested your weapon at the start of the match. I seriously wish to know why you feel it is my fault and responsibility that you hit me with your weapons while improperly testing your weapons in a live fire situation. Please make this make sense, because right now I can't seem to follow the logic on why this can be.

Take the 2 minutes to go to the testing grounds, fire and configure your weapons, and then leave and join a real match. It seriously probably takes 2-3 minutes for the total procedure, which probably is half the time it takes to load into a real match, including search time to locate a match. It really is very rewarding to use the testing grounds, for you AND for your team.


You seem to constantly forget, you are a team. A team wins together or loses together.

Share Victory. Share Defeat.

[DEMAX51]

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

I take precautions. They are not always 100% effective. If a light is zipping in front of me, accidents might happen. But I do try to avoid damaging them.

If you hit them, any percentage of the time, you're not taking adequate precautions

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

It is not my fault that they are too lazy to go around me.

Yes, it is. Because they're not being "lazy." They just aren't expecting someone on their team to be THAT stupid.

It's not my job to make sure a teammate doesn't shoot me, it's his. Rationalize your actions to yourself however you want, you are clearly in the wrong here man.

Edited by DEMAX51, 16 September 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Tesunie]

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

It is not my fault that they are too lazy to go around me.

So, you can't even turn around completely and shoot the wall behind your team? Are you THAT lazy?

I'm sorry, but if I'm in a light, I'm trying to scout or capture a point right off the bat. The faster I move, the sooner I get there, the sooner people have the information they might need or the sooner we get our capture score up faster.

Just left a match where my team lost capture by 4 points. If we seriously had a single base for 5 seconds sooner, we could have won the game. If all lights had to "avoid your fire" by "not being lazy and just go around me", that match would have not been as close as it really was. So YES. Sometimes those few seconds at the start of the game can determine if you win or lose.

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

They can try. So far no one has been successful.

If they are successful, they will get tagged by the system for a team kill, not me. So they are only hurting themselves anyway.

Which means you just double penalized them, by hitting them, and by forcing them to get a team kill by defending themselves. I pray that you never shoot me in a match and I actually felt like getting retribution. I can be one very devious mechwarrior when I wish to be...

Oh, and the very fact that someone must have tired, even if they failed, should be a good hint to you. I have never had anyone shoot me in response to me shooting them. I have had to defend myself from someone trying to kill me before, but never the other way around.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Sadistic Savior, on 16 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

It is not my fault that they are too lazy to go around me.

Son you are about to cost me my first warning on this forum.

How exactly are we supposed to go around you? You are facing the enemy. Not like I am running straight thru you (there is collision detection ya know).

Are you saying we should be late to the party because people like you aren't capable of admitting they are wrong?

I am about to see if this forum has an ignore section. I know the game does and am seriously considering adding you to it just to see if I can avoid dropping with you EVER!

[PostalPatriot]

Tesunie, on 13 September 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

I AIM FOR THE GROUND or HIGH INTO THE SKY.

You don't even want to know the amount of times my Spider has ate a team mates Alpha strike from the Shooting into the air thing!

[Tesunie]

PostalPatriot, on 16 September 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

You don't even want to know the amount of times my Spider has ate a team mates Alpha strike from the Shooting into the air thing!

This, of course, was back before testing ground was around, or the very rare occurrence where the game "forgets" my weapon configurations (sometimes a patch will do this without my knowledge), but even then, I still wait a few moments, or aim for a very nearby wall or rock instead.

I have not had to shoot my weapons needlessly in a very long time, mostly thanks to the testing grounds.

(I also suggest the ground, lowering your weapons as far as possible. Shooting in the air gives away your position to the enemy, and I don't want to give them any more information than I have to. Ground also shortens the distance my weapon fire travels, making it less likely to hit someone as it travels less distance.)

I can believe you. I've had to jump over some assaults in the canyon map because they took the narrow path on the sides and blocked the whole thing. If they fired into the air at that time... ouch.

Edited by Tesunie, 16 September 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Nick Makiaveli, on 16 September 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Son you are about to cost me my first warning on this forum.

I'm sorry.

Quote

How exactly are we supposed to go around you?

These are big maps. There are lots of places to run that are not directly in front of me. Run there.

Can you give me an example of a map where you have no choice but to be right in my face?

Quote

Are you saying we should be late to the party because people like you aren't capable of admitting they are wrong?

Are you saying a 10 second delay will kill you? What exactly will you lose?

Getting to the cap site 10 seconds late will have zero impact on the game IMO. Assuming it even costs you 10 seconds. Light mechs are fast.

Quote

I am about to see if this forum has an ignore section. I know the game does and am seriously considering adding you to it just to see if I can avoid dropping with you EVER!

I am sorry to hear that. I will try to find a way to pick up the pieces.

[Sadistic Savior]

Tesunie, on 16 September 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

So, you can't even turn around completely and shoot the wall behind your team? Are you THAT lazy?

I already said I take precautions. If you insist on zipping right in front of me, well, there isn't a lot I can do. I'll try to avoid hitting you though.

Quote

I'm sorry, but if I'm in a light, I'm trying to scout or capture a point right off the bat.

If you are a light, you are a lot faster than me. So going around me should be trivial for you. The few seconds it will take you to do that will have no impact on the game IMO.

I know this from experience because I have and play lights occasionally.

Quote

Just left a match where my team lost capture by 4 points.

10 seconds will have NO impact on capture times. Not with the new rules. It takes forever to capture now.

I have never seen a game where 10 seconds for a light would have made a difference. Not once.

Quote

Which means you just double penalized them, by hitting them, and by forcing them to get a team kill by defending themselves.

I don't hit them on purpose. I try to avoid them. If they insist on running right in front of me, well, I can't stop them. They have the option of avoiding that risk if they want to.

Quote

I pray that you never shoot me in a match and I actually felt like getting retribution. I can be one very devious mechwarrior when I wish to be...

I have never met a lone light that I had reason to fear. Should you attack me deliberately, it would not take a lot of effort to leg you and /quit. Just sayin.

Quote

Oh, and the very fact that someone must have tired, even if they failed, should be a good hint to you. I have never had anyone shoot me in response to me shooting them. I have had to defend myself from someone trying to kill me before, but never the other way around.

I have never even shot a teammate that shot at me when it was an accident. Not even once. I did not even insult them or demand an apology. I just continued with the game.

DEMAX51, on 16 September 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

If you hit them, any percentage of the time, you're not taking adequate precautions

I disagree. Precautions do not need to be 100%. And if they do not zip in front of me, their chances of being hit are reduced to zero.

Quote

It's not my job to make sure a teammate doesn't shoot me, it's his. Rationalize your actions to yourself however you want, you are clearly in the wrong here man.

I do not agree. And clearly I am not alone. I see this happen every game. It ain't just me.

[Sadistic Savior]

Tesunie, on 16 September 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

It makes a difference. I have reported people who, every time I see them play, DC before the match even starts. If I see the same name often enough, and I always see them disconnected, I'm going to remember that name and report it. I don't care if I see it before the game starts, or shortly after the game starts. If I see it too often, I report.

So report me. So far I have not received a single warning. Whatever I am doing is either not ******* people off enough or else PGI doesn't care.

Quote

It's called building a reputation for yourself.

Reputations mean nothing right now. This is Team Deathmatch beta. CW might change that.

Quote

I sometimes have dropped with the same person in a match for several matches in a row. Even to the point where I greeted them at the start of the match. It can make a difference. And if it doesn't matter for the next game, it matters for THAT ONE GAME. When you have 2 or 3 people disconnect, you end up with a very frustrating game.

I consider it a challenge myself. I have won games with a handicap like that before.

Quote

A DC is as bad as a team kill, and almost as bad as friendly fire.

Well, then there is no point in retaliation for FF when it will risk a disconnect, right? So you should just shrug and move on.

Quote

You fail to consider that other people are behind these screens. Those other mechs are piloted by other people, not a computer. They deserve some respect.

They are adults and understand that that is a game. A free game. They'll get over it. By the end of the next game, it will be a fading memory.

It is not like this happens very often. It is rare. I can't remember the last time I damaged someone.

Quote

Instead, you get more people upset with you, let down your team

So what? Those people might be on the other team next game, or I might not ever see them again. This is randomized deathmatch. Stats will be reset...they stand to lose little or nothing.

It is just an ego thing. People need to get over it. It wasn't on purpose, you lose little or nothing...move on and avoid it in the future by going around.

Quote

You, leaving a match prematurely, when it isn't caused by a bug outside of your control, is a form of griefing.

Report me then. Whats stopping you? If the DEVs agree they will punish me. Right?

I am guessing they do not agree with you.

Quote

Shooting your weapons in a live fire situation in an area that is likely to still hit a teammate even when you try not to, can (key word can) be a form of griefing.

I disagree. Griefing has to be deliberate. If I shoot you by accident, that is not griefing. I am guessing the DEVs agree with me.

Quote

If I saw you shooting me or teammates, even accidentally, and I see it happen "often enough" for me to have concerns, I will report you (you meaning the offender, not really you personally).

You should do that. And laugh evilly while you're doing it. It's the only way we'll learn.

Quote

Intent does matter, but there is a point where even intent no longer matters

You are wrong. Intent is always the only thing that matters.

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 17 September 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[Macbrea]

You do realize how this occurs alot of the time, right?

So, lets take an average player.

1) Player clicks the launch button
2) Player then clicks on browser to change music/read e-mail/update facebook/read forum
3) Player notices match has started and screen now shows their mech ready to go. After the animation
4) Player left clicks on the screen to bring focus back to the window for MWO
5) Mech Shoots it's primary weapons into a forward arch, hope no one was standing there!

So, instead of alt-tabbing back into the game they click on the screen, fire the shot and go on from there.

[Tesunie]

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

These are big maps. There are lots of places to run that are not directly in front of me. Run there.

Can you give me an example of a map where you have no choice but to be right in my face?


Are you saying a 10 second delay will kill you? What exactly will you lose?

Getting to the cap site 10 seconds late will have zero impact on the game IMO. Assuming it even costs you 10 seconds. Light mechs are fast.

List and diagram of all maps and known starting locations: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...peaks&m=assault

My Diagram of possible friendly fire arcs, and the fastest paths most people will commonly take.


So, where am I suppose to "go behind" people? They could be facing in any direction, and by moving in front of them at ANY TIME, I have to run into their line of fire. It is IMPOSSIBLE to stay out side someone's line of fire. Even behind them isn't safe, as what if they turn around to test their weapons, and they happen to hit you now because you tried to go around behind them? What then? Still the faster mechs fault?

Look how close those spawn points are. Do you see it? They START VERY CLOSE TO EACH OTHER. It is impossible for me to "play it safe" by "not running in front of you". However, it is perfectly possible for you to "play it safe" and just "not shoot your weapons at the start of the match". Which one is safer?

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I already said I take precautions. If you insist on zipping right in front of me, well, there isn't a lot I can do. I'll try to avoid hitting you though.

It is commendable that you try not to shoot me, but if you used the testing grounds instead you would have no reason to risk my mech for your fire test. I can not possibly help myself from running in front of your mech for the entire duration of the game. Also, seen as, demonstrated my map, you can place your firing arc in any direction, even if I try to go around you, you still can shoot me by accident.

It is best to just not shoot at all in the start of the match if you can help it. It is best to wait the 10-30 seconds yourself on your fire test, instead of me having to waste 10-30 seconds to move around you.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

If you are a light, you are a lot faster than me. So going around me should be trivial for you. The few seconds it will take you to do that will have no impact on the game IMO.

I know this from experience because I have and play lights occasionally.

It can be harder than you think, and when I don't see anyone in front of me and I punch it, and then get hit by friendly fire, I didn't "see you" behind me to even bother going around. Plus, I have had many matches where just 5 or 10 seconds sooner caps (really more important now with the longer capping times, not less) would have been a win for the team, instead it was a defeat.

I know this from playing many games, and from playing fast mechs more than just "occasionally".

Shooting after I have left or not shooting at all should be trivial for you. The few seconds it will take for you to shoot after I have already moved out will have no impact on the game IMO.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

10 seconds will have NO impact on capture times. Not with the new rules. It takes forever to capture now.

I have never seen a game where 10 seconds for a light would have made a difference. Not once.

10 Seconds will have NO impact on your firing test. 10 seconds, especially with the longer cap times, can be a huge difference and can determine the outcome of the game.

I have seen a game where 10 seconds for a light did make a different. All the time.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I don't hit them on purpose. I try to avoid them. If they insist on running right in front of me, well, I can't stop them. They have the option of avoiding that risk if they want to.

Reverse that statement. If you KNOW that they are probably going to run in front of you, and you can't stop them, then YOU have the option to avoid weapons discharge and avoid the risk of injuring a teammate. It is not the responsibility of the recipient of the damage to avoid the damage, it is the responsibility of the damage dealer to not deal damage to a teammate. You have far greater control over your weapons than you do over your team. Control what you can to help the team win overall.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I have never met a lone light that I had reason to fear. Should you attack me deliberately, it would not take a lot of effort to leg you and /quit. Just sayin.

I would have little reason to fight with a teammate, unless, after I turn in the direction of the fire, I get hit again. I only retaliate when it appears to be intentional, and by that point, I'm normally not the only one "attacking" the team shooter. Also, who said I'd take retribution right then and there? I'd just wait for it. Wait for you to start moving, walk slowly behind you, and then drill everything I have into your back. Preferably several times. Then scamper off for a bit and come back to deal more damage. If I want you dead, I'll certainly treat you like any other enemy, and I will not care if the triangle is blue or red at that point.

Just sayin.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I have never even shot a teammate that shot at me when it was an accident. Not even once. I did not even insult them or demand an apology. I just continued with the game.

Normally, I just continue with the game and ignore it. If I was seriously damaged, then I will complain. If they continue to shoot me, no matter what the weapon hitting me, I will defend myself.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I disagree. Precautions do not need to be 100%. And if they do not zip in front of me, their chances of being hit are reduced to zero.

When not under combat conditions, friendly fire should be a 0%. There should be absolutely 0 reason that any fire should hit a friendly mech when the enemy has been engaged. There also should 0 reason (with the introduction of Testing Grounds) to discharge weapons unless it is for combat reasons. (Very few exceptions permitted.)

Once more, which direction are you facing? Where is your firing arc? Am I suppose to just "stay behind you" the whole match? At some point, I WILL have to get in front of you. Also, as fast mechs are so fast, you should not have to wait long before you can preform the tests you don't need to preform.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I do not agree. And clearly I am not alone. I see this happen every game. It ain't just me.

In this thread, I believe you ARE alone. So far, you've had 3-5 people this page alone telling you that you are incorrect in your theory. I have seen it happen in less and less games, as people learn to use testing grounds. Back before testing grounds, it happened every single match by just about everyone.

So, no, you are not alone, but you are in a very strong minority. A minority that seems to feel they are privileged enough to be able to shoot friends by accident and have it some how be their fault. You are privileged enough that everyone else has to move out of your way, or face the consequences. You are so privileged that, if someone does happen to shoot you back, you can leg them and then quit the match. Wish I had those privileges.

Edited by Tesunie, 17 September 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Tesunie]

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Reputations mean nothing right now. This is Team Deathmatch beta. CW might change that.

Reputation means a lot more than you think. When I drop and I see Koniving, Bishop Stiener, or other names not just from the forums but from people I've fought in games (some on my friends list now), I leave an impression on them as they have left one on me. I have had people friend request me in game after we tag teamed a great game together. Sometimes, I have to fight someone on my friends list.

Build a good, solid, and reliable reputation and people will be happy to see your name on the score board, with or against them. Build a bad reputation and people will groan when they see your name load in, become a target for the enemy, or even become the target of focused friendly weapons fire or a ditching by much of your own team.

It might be death-match-esk styled game, but that still doesn't mean you don't leave impressions. I've played Dust, and had people invite me into squads or corporations after a match that they saw me fight in. I've played DCUO, where I grouped with people who where impressed with me out in the field and asked if I was willing to help them with a mission (and then get added to each other's friend's lists). In Guild Wars, I had an entire guild of people who looked to me as a leader (though I hate being a leader) and asked me to help them, knowing I would be there for them.

Reputations are far more powerful than you know. You never know when someone is watching your actions and commenting on them in their head. I've observed people I've seen pilot a mech so well, I commented them on their skills and befriended. them. All that is reputation, the impression you leave on others.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Well, then there is no point in retaliation for FF when it will risk a disconnect, right? So you should just shrug and move on.

Depends. Are they continuing to shoot me? Or was it a one time incident? And, I'm not risking a disconnect, I'm defending myself from someone trying to kill me.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

They are adults and understand that that is a game. A free game. They'll get over it. By the end of the next game, it will be a fading memory.

It is not like this happens very often. It is rare. I can't remember the last time I damaged someone.

You just don't get it. Respect. Respect is not something we try to teach children and adults can ignore. Just because this is virtual and the internet doesn't make it any more alright. How would it be if someone left a professional football game, mid game, because the score was against them? It's just a game too...

That is commendable for you, not damaging your allies by your test fired weapons. However, if you aren't hitting your teammates, then we aren't referring to you, are we? I'd still like people to stop shooting at the start of a match, or just randomly in a match, but as long as they don't hinder nor hurt the team, I have no problem with it.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

So what? Those people might be on the other team next game, or I might not ever see them again. This is randomized deathmatch. Stats will be reset...they stand to lose little or nothing.

It is just an ego thing. People need to get over it. It wasn't on purpose, you lose little or nothing...move on and avoid it in the future by going around.

If I notice the same name doing the same bad behavour, I will remember it for a while. If I see the same name DC at the start of matches, I will report it. If I see the same people shooting a friendly mech at the start of a match when test firing, even if I think it's accidental, I will report it. You would be amazed at how many times I have dropped with the same names before. It happens more often than you think.

This isn't about Stats. It is about the safety of the team.

An ego thing? Don't know about you, but when I have so little armor, and someone damages it, even if accidentally, I don't like it. It's a reduction to my efficiency and reduces my ability to help the team just that much more. Me having to go around you because you are a hazardous teammate to be in front of is a hindrance to MY performance. You, having to shoot your weapons off at the start of the match, does not impact your performance. So, you feel the need to impact my performance at the start of the match, while not hindering your own still, isn't that rather selfish of you? (Selfish, another good pilot and forum goer!)

You lose little or nothing...move on and avoid it in the future by not shooting your weapons prematurely.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Report me then. Whats stopping you? If the DEVs agree they will punish me. Right?

I am guessing they do not agree with you.

I have not reported you, as I have not played with you, and you have not quit a match I was in with you, and you have not shot me or a teammate several times or for several matches in a row.

They do not disagree with me, as I have no reason to report you at this time. You have to have a reason to report someone with evidence of the event happening. It has nothing to do with if they agree or disagree with a statement given.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

I disagree. Griefing has to be deliberate. If I shoot you by accident, that is not griefing. I am guessing the DEVs agree with me.

Griefing is causing grief to your fellow game users. It normally is done on purpose and intentionally, but griefing by it's very definition can be done accidentally as well. When I get kicked from a match from a bug or crash, I am causing grief to my team. I am griefing them by the bug. Can I stop it? No. If I leave a match because things "aren't going my way", I am still griefing even if it isn't my intention. If I leave a match as soon as I load in because I can make more in game money and exp by dropping all my mechs into matches that I quickly exit, is farming AND griefing.

How do you know who the DEVs are agreeing with? I don't know. I'm sure they would say it is the fault of the person who controls the weapon in this case, as that is what their reward and penalty system says. However, I have not personally asked any moderators their opinion on this subject matter, so I do not know what they will agree with or not. And, as stated before, I had not reported anything on you as I have not played with you before, or if I had, you gave me no reason to report you.

A lack of a report (or action) is not a response of agreeing or disagreeing. The DEVs do not know about things till they are reported.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

You should do that. And laugh evilly while you're doing it. It's the only way we'll learn.

I don't laugh, I shake my head at it. I also give a LOT of leeway before I report someone. Unless you are doing something MAJOR, I ask you to stop, ignore, or call you out in chat. If I continue to see a repeat of the bad behavior, then I will report it. I see reporting someone as an action to be taken when I have no more options to deal with it myself or it is a major violation of the terms of service of the game.

Sadistic Savior, on 17 September 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

You are wrong. Intent is always the only thing that matters.

How can I see intent? I don't know what your intent is. And, intent or not, if you are causing undo and unnecessary grief to the team, you are griefing. If it appears to be accidental, then I will make no mention of it. If I see it continue, no mater the intent, I will make mention of it. Griefing is just causing grief in the game. Being a griefer is when you intentionally cause grief in the game. There is a difference. (Deffintion of Griefing says normally intentionally causing grief, but normally and must are different words. Thus, you can be griefing accidentally, but it isn't as common as it being done intentionally. Accidental griefing normally stops once the person realizes the results of their actions.)

Macbrea, on 17 September 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

You do realize how this occurs alot of the time, right?

So, lets take an average player.

1) Player clicks the launch button
2) Player then clicks on browser to change music/read e-mail/update facebook/read forum
3) Player notices match has started and screen now shows their mech ready to go. After the animation
4) Player left clicks on the screen to bring focus back to the window for MWO
5) Mech Shoots it's primary weapons into a forward arch, hope no one was standing there!

So, instead of alt-tabbing back into the game they click on the screen, fire the shot and go on from there.

Solutions players can take if they commonly practice this situation to prevent friendly fire when clicking into the game:
- Make weapon group 1 blank, and move all weapon selection to a different weapon group. Then, upon start of the match after you have clicked in, select the weapon group you wish to be assigned to left mouse.
- Don't practice this behavior if you are seriously trying to play the game. The wait shouldn't be too long between finding a match/loading.
- Have your game set to full screen. Then, while you are preforming those tasks, once the game starts, it will expand and fill your screen, already being selected and active and ready to play.
- Select the game from the window tabs on the bottom of the screen. That is outside the game screen and should make the game active and not make any clicks in the game.
- Wait a few moments for the area in front of them to clear out before clicking into the game. Better to penalize yourself than an innocent teammate.

I can see this happening, and it has happened against me before. I took it as it was, an accident, not farther fire resumed after the hit, and we all moved on. However, just like with adjusting your weapons and test firing them, there are ways to stop the friendly fire damage completely or prevent it drastically. If you notice that you have to fire your weapons to get the game to play, then try to come up with ways of preventing this weapons discharge, and potential ammo waste and friendly damage.



I can't stress it enough on how we are a team. The actions of one can and does effect the team as a whole. Work with the team you have. You win together or you lose together. It is a team effort for victory.

Shared Victory. Shared Defeat.

[Sadistic Savior]

Tesunie, on 17 September 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

So, where am I suppose to "go behind" people?

Move to the left or right of the mechs you want to avoid. It is not nearly as hard as you make it sound. You do not have to move straight ahead.

If you insist on moving at an angle across my field of you, you will increase your risk of FF. No amount of diagrams is going to convince me that you can't do this...I have piloted lights lots of times. I know it can be done.

Run around the group instead of through it.

Quote

It is commendable that you try not to shoot me

I think so too. I am putting effort into not hitting you.

Quote

if you used the testing grounds instead you would have no reason to risk my mech for your fire test.

I wish that I could, but I am too lazy to do so. That takes time and I get bored. I think my solution is much easier, and less likely to result in boredom for all concerned.

Quote

I can not possibly help myself from running in front of your mech

Well, then you will take the risk of friendly fire. I wish you luck. I'll do all I can to avoid hitting you.

Quote

It is best to just not shoot at all in the start of the match if you can help it.

I can't help it. I've tried. I just don't have the willpower. It's fun, it helps me test heat reaction for the map with a given setup, it helps me estimate recharge time, it helps me get a feel for range. So long as I am able to do it, I will probably keep doing it.

Quote

Normally, I just continue with the game and ignore it. If I was seriously damaged, then I will complain.

What will complaining do? It won't reverse that damage.

Quote

When not under combat conditions, friendly fire should be a 0%.

Maybe in a perfect world. This is not a perfect world.

But you can help reduce the risk.

Quote

In this thread, I believe you ARE alone.

I am saying what everyone else is afraid to say. But I am obviously not alone...it happens every single game. Look at all the threads on it. Obviously, a lot of other people do not have a problem with this.

[Sadistic Savior]

Tesunie, on 17 September 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Reputation means a lot more than you think. When I drop and I see Koniving, Bishop Stiener, or other names not just from the forums but from people I've fought in games (some on my friends list now), I leave an impression on them as they have left one on me.

I have never seen ANY of them in game. Not even once.

Quote

An ego thing?

An Ego thing.

You are losing little or nothing. It does not happen often, and when it does, it is not the end of the world. And it is avoidable with minimal effort if you are really that concerned about it.

Quote

You lose little or nothing...move on and avoid it in the future by not shooting your weapons prematurely.

I have nothing to lose by test firing either. I have no incentive to change my behavior.

Quote

Griefing is causing grief to your fellow game users.

Griefing is not griefing if it is accidental. That is the whole point of the term. It has to be deliberate to be griefing.

Quote

It normally is done on purpose and intentionally, but griefing by it's very definition can be done accidentally as well.

LOL! Good luck convincing PGI of that.

Quote

How do you know who the DEVs are agreeing with?

By their actions. And what they have posted.

Quote

How can I see intent?

Exactly my point.

[DEMAX51]

Sadistic, you clearly cannot be reasoned with. You seem to have the idea stuck in your head that friendly fire is the victim's fault, and you are not responsible for your own actions. Your thinking is akin to "well, that sexual abuse victim was dressed that way, so they were asking for it."

I pity you.

[Hammerfinn]

My 2 cents:

Sometimes it's accidental. Sometimes it's intentional.

Sometimes it's your fault, sometimes it's the other guy.

It is always avoidable: both you or the other guy could have made other decisions and avoided it.

Arguing about it isn't going to help a whole lot: the truth is a grey area.