77 replies to this topic

[Edson Drake]

The missiles are in a troublesome position. They are fun weapons, but need a whole lance dedicated to it(hence teamwork, something almost non-existant in PUGs), and even then, will you really trouble your team mates bringing TAG, a light mech, just to help you lock-on better, when you could actually bring a more competitive instant-damage weapon?

That's why this gives the impression(especially for newbies) that they are an OP weapon. The amount of teamwork necessary just to make it work is insane, compared to more balanced cookie-cutter builds.
The missiles are almost in a good position damage-wise. I just disagree with the speed and huge arc(I am more fond of straight forward launch missiles) they currently have.

It's very problematic, and I don't blame PGI for what missiles are currently. The moment they tell us they're going to tweak missiles, the nerf threads start to pop even before the tweaks themselves actually happen.

[Kjudoon]

LRMS worth it? Hell yes! I love my LRM5's too. Bigger than LRM10, yes you do a whopper of a salvo, but you're done in 6 shots in most cases leaving you with 2 ML to fight with and no speed to go cap. Otherwise, you're a walking ammo can waiting for some spider with dual MGs to blow you up, CASE or no CASE. And with the smaller LRMs, once dry, you can have larger backup weapons with which to keep on fighting.

I like setting them on chain fire and use em like an indirect fire AC5 or AC10. If you time it right, you get a hose of lead on them. With few exceptions, I usually get 2-5 missiles through per double LRM5 shot because it's chewing up the salvo in front of it. Multiple AMS mechs in a small area though... well, you're getting nothing through. EMC stinketh, but that's because it's a LIIIIIIIITLE too powerful. (What do you mean no target? I am LOOKING AT HIM!!!! ARRRRRRGH!)

Also, most of the damage is from directly above and scares the tar out of whomever's in the path unless they've been through it before as the screen fills with flame and sparks from out of nowhere and shakes like a happy baby with a maraca.

Lastly, you may have those 6 MLs that kill in one shot, but you can't do that from behind a mountain which is a perfectly legitimate and smart place to be. If we don't have problems of shooting a mech in the back, we shouldn't have problems with shooting them over a hill. Of course, you can rush me with your weakened armor and then get a face full of LB10X or HL too.

Also, it's a nice way to deal with that SOB Spider with his nerfed hit boxes and lag causing speed when you spot him fighting someone at range. Bombs away, baby! Maybe you'll clip a weak leg and let the guy he's spinning a cocoon of death around blow his keister to smithereenies. Bitter? Nope... I'm not bitter.

Gimme LRMs. love me some indirect fire goodness. But that's the way I roll.

[Johnny Reb]

Lrm's in pugs are a {Scrap} shot, either own or are owned! In 12 man if running a pure lrm it is one or none.

Kjudoon, on 01 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

LRMS worth it? Hell yes! I love my LRM5's too. Bigger than LRM10, yes you do a whopper of a salvo, but you're done in 6 shots in most cases leaving you with 2 ML to fight with and no speed to go cap. Otherwise, you're a walking ammo can waiting for some spider with dual MGs to blow you up, CASE or no CASE. And with the smaller LRMs, once dry, you can have larger backup weapons with which to keep on fighting.

I like setting them on chain fire and use em like an indirect fire AC5 or AC10. If you time it right, you get a hose of lead on them. With few exceptions, I usually get 2-5 missiles through per double LRM5 shot because it's chewing up the salvo in front of it. Multiple AMS mechs in a small area though... well, you're getting nothing through. EMC stinketh, but that's because it's a LIIIIIIIITLE too powerful. (What do you mean no target? I am LOOKING AT HIM!!!! ARRRRRRGH!)

Also, most of the damage is from directly above and scares the tar out of whomever's in the path unless they've been through it before as the screen fills with flame and sparks from out of nowhere and shakes like a happy baby with a maraca.

Lastly, you may have those 6 MLs that kill in one shot, but you can't do that from behind a mountain which is a perfectly legitimate and smart place to be. If we don't have problems of shooting a mech in the back, we shouldn't have problems with shooting them over a hill. Of course, you can rush me with your weakened armor and then get a face full of LB10X or HL too.

Also, it's a nice way to deal with that SOB Spider with his nerfed hit boxes and lag causing speed when you spot him fighting someone at range. Bombs away, baby! Maybe you'll clip a weak leg and let the guy he's spinning a cocoon of death around blow his keister to smithereenies. Bitter? Nope... I'm not bitter.

Gimme LRMs. love me some indirect fire goodness. But that's the way I roll.

This is great but not really useful in a 12 man.

[Navy Sixes]

Delas Ting Usee, on 12 September 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

LRMs have their place - having said that...I can't stand when someone claims to be an LRM Boat...to be spectated later and learn that he carries 20 or 25 LRM tubes - THAT DOES NOT A BOAT MAKE! 30, 30 is the MINIUMUM number of LRMs you should bring to the table. This has been a public service announcement. Thank you very much.

Agreed.

Which is why the correct way to announce to your PUG team your LRM loadout is to type, "LRM + your max salvo" (LRM20, LRM50, etc.). Let someone else decide if you're a 'boat.' Give your teammates solid tactical information they can use.

[Fyrwulf]

To be frank, most of the missile boats in the game are ghetto-rigged. There isn't a Longbow 12R (Reseen, so not likely unless MS crushes Harmony Gold) or Bane 3 (I have hope for this). The worth of a missile boat is really decided by what you want to do. If your play style is "MUH-RINES! For the glory of the Empruh, CHARGE!" then missile boats aren't your thing. If you're happy coming out of a game with no kills but plenty of assists and generally making yourself an annoyance to the other team, then build the best boat you can.

[Johnny Reb]

Fyrwulf, on 09 March 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

To be frank, most of the missile boats in the game are ghetto-rigged. There isn't a Longbow 12R (Reseen, so not likely unless MS crushes Harmony Gold) or Bane 3 (I have hope for this). The worth of a missile boat is really decided by what you want to do. If your play style is "MUH-RINES! For the glory of the Empruh, CHARGE!" then missile boats aren't your thing. If you're happy coming out of a game with no kills but plenty of assists and generally making yourself an annoyance to the other team, then build the best boat you can.

Heh, goes either way, lrm boats can steal kills quite often, with the damage score, just depends.

[Johnny Reb]

I love lrm boats, but I have a low fps, thanks DEVS! Still its about kn owning the map and spots for best lrm damage!

[PACoFist]

I have a BLR i run as LRM boat. My impression is, that missiles do a lot more damage if you use them in mid-range (300 to 500 meters) and not at long range. I know they are supposed to do the same damage at all ranges. Maybe it is just because they will reach their target faster? So the enemy has less time to run for cover.
And I think there is a bonus to accuray if you can see your target by yourself and dont rely on a spotter. (I am not sure, maybe someone can confirm it?)
You can stay in cover and shoot LRMs at target 800-900m away. But used this way they are more an annoyance than a real danger.

[wanderer]

The reason you tend to see lower damage at long ranges is multiples.

1) LRMs traveling long distances are more likely to encounter random AMS between them and target- and a salvo that goes over one takes more damage than one merely going through half of the "bubble" on the way to target, as it gets hit coming and going.

2) More terrain interference - your target is more likely to get into cover and at least have partial protection.

3) Delay - unlike most weapons, it is VERY likely at long range (600+) to have a second flight airborne before the first even hits. You're doing the same damage, it's just slower getting there.

Most folks weren't around for LRMs before they had their range adjusted to 1000m- back when they had the original 630m range (as per TT). Missile speed is -still- as if they only traveled 630m, which means anything past that is painfully slow travel time.

And then they added in the MISSILE WARNING sign for good measure. So if you're sending a shot past 600m, it's slow and shouting the entire way. Low odds. Don't expect shots like that to do more than make someone casually saunter into cover.

Direct fire doesn't change accuracy- TAG, NARC, and Artemis do, making missiles track better/tighter and hence hit for more focused punches. The smaller a missile cluster, the lower it's spread- so 4x5 launched together will hit a smaller part of a 'Mech than 1x20. Correspondingly, a larger cluster is more likely to hit in part on evasive targets- dumping an LRM20 on a scout means some missiles will hit thanks to the wider spread, while an LRM 5 may just splash the legs a bit if that.

AMS takes out X amount of a salvo per second when it's detecting a missile pass by. This is why large numbers at once matter vs. AMS- in smaller bites, AMS can chew up most of a small volley, but chokes trying to swallow large ones.

Note that in addition, LRMs also deal with the number of tubes the 'Mech actually has available. An LRM15 on a Catapult-A1 fires from a 15-tube launcher, meaning it fires a 15x1 shot. A Cataphract-2X has a FOUR tube launcher, meaning the same LRM15 fires 4-4-4-3 instead: A much narrower spread, but AMS deals more damage to the "stream" of missiles vs. a "cloud" of 15 at once. Further, it fires a bit slower since reload doesn't happen until the last missile clears the launcher. Many LRM lovers hate staggered launches for those reasons, and for some designs this can make "optimal" launchers a bit different. A Griffin is good with 30 LRMs- but since only the top launcher hardpoint is more than 15, you'll usually see one with an LRM 20 + LRM 10 instead of 2x15- as that way, it fires 30 at once instead of 25-5.

Personally, I find the tradeoff at times is worth it- as often I don't get to fire multiple salvos as fast as I want and get missiles on-target, I work well with narrow-spread launchers, even with the higher AMS vulnerability. Narrow-spread missiles also tend to work better for suppressive fire, as it's easier to keep a constant stream of fire by alternating launchers on chain fire. The 6x5 Cat-A1 is one example of this sorta thing using many smaller launchers for chain fire, while the Cataphract-2X can alternate a pair of LRM 15's to similar effect due to it's 4-count tube launcher.

(This can be seen at it's worst if you slap an LRM 20 into a Raven where the NARC launcher used to be. Just do it on the Training Grounds, please!)

Smurfy's Mechlab shows how many tubes a launcher has, so you can check beforehand- even variants of a chassis will frequently differ in tube counts.- while a Stalker-3H has 20 tubes per arm launcher, most only have 10 on the arms instead!

[Lightfoot]

I will add that Ghost Heat makes it hard to use LRMs as a secondary weapon system. Usually you mix LRMs and Energy weapons like PPCs or Lasers, but PPCs are too hot and they have a minimum range with no ability to disable the "Field Inhibitor" to allow them to fire with penalties. ERPPCs are so hot you can only use one and 3xLLAS, an obvious good primary, incurs a huge ghost heat penalty.

So you have to be creative to make this work because your primary attack has to have at least moderate punch. Good choices are the ON1-K with 4x Energy hardpoints and LRM30 capability although LRM25 is more likely. The AWS-8 missile series do this very well also, but you need speed to protect it's over-sized CT, or be very sneaky.

Must have Adv Target Decay asap of course.

[Furiel]

Johnny Reb, on 09 March 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Heh, goes either way, lrm boats can steal kills quite often, with the damage score, just depends.

I wish to knew how you can steal kills "quite often" with a LRM boat, because my experience has been quite the opposite. I haven't been LRMing for long, only have about 150 drops between my 2 LRM boats, but I'm averaging 1 kill every 2 matches, and gotten multiple kills in a single match a handful of times at best. Getting a kill with a LRM boat is actually pretty hard because you have no ability to pinpoint damage. Even if someone is all beat up and has a torso open there is no guarantee that a missle will hit that open torso. Assuming of course the missile even gets there due to AMS, cover, etc. it's still splash damage all over the mech, and while it's likely you'll get a some hits on an exposed area when you are hitting with 30-40 missiles (assuming no AMS coverage) it's still only a few points of damage to that area that isn't likely to destoy it compared to being able to blow it out in 1 or 2 shots that are delivered in less time with an AC, LL or PPC.

[LauLiao]

Sadistic Savior, on 12 September 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

LRMS are not intended to be a staple weapon.

I don't know about that, I've stapled some butts to the floor with my LRM boats

Edited by LauLiao, 10 March 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[LauLiao]

Furiel, on 10 March 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I wish to knew how you can steal kills "quite often" with a LRM boat, because my experience has been quite the opposite. I haven't been LRMing for long, only have about 150 drops between my 2 LRM boats, but I'm averaging 1 kill every 2 matches, and gotten multiple kills in a single match a handful of times at best.

As a long time bissile-boat pilot, it goes both ways. Usually in the early going you'll grind down armor for other people to finish off, but if you can manage to save ammo for the later stages of the match when everyone is stripped of their armor you can end up with a kill every salvo (I think my personal best was 4 kills in the last 45 seconds of the match or so).

[Koniving]

Battlemaster, pug drop.

Allies in chat were saying things like "Spot for missiles, press R." "Protect Koniving, he's got plenty of rain left."
Meanwhile I started typing in chat, "and another bites the dust." "And another one gone and another one gone..." with each kill.

Health and missiles just before the match ended.




If I had a tag, I'd be a lot richer. If I had known I had a tag and used it, I'd be a lot richer. (I completely forgot about it.)


Two of the kills were with medium lasers out of necessity. I kept getting rushed.

Edited by Koniving, 10 March 2014 - 11:16 AM.

[Fut]

Felio, on 15 September 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

I have tried using them and I have noticed one of two things happens:
2) A target acquired by me starts beating the {Scrap} out of me before my missiles can reach it, and I have to break the lock.

It can be tough, by try to use the mini-map and a visual check to determine which direction your opponent is facing before firing your LRMs. If your target is looking directly at you, it's probably best to slink back into cover and try to re-position. If you see that your target is looking elsewhere, you'll have a much better chance at holding your lock on them without them firing back at you (until they determine where the LRMs are coming from).

Also, as others have said, Target Decay is a great module. It'll allow you to peak in and out of cover to maintain your locks (as well as allow you to maintain a lock while your opponent ducks behind cover...etc).

LRMs might not be the best weapon out there, but I find they're a lot of fun to use. They take practice, patience, and a lot of hard work, but there's a sense of accomplishment once you start to get good with them.

Anecdote time:
Once, in my HBK-4J, I was able to keep 3 Mechs at bay while my last surviving teammate captured their base.
I'd fire at one target, then fall back into cover. Fire at the next, fall back into cover... etc.

This was in a PuG Match, I had good terrain to work with at the time (was on the upper areas of Canyon), and luckily there was enough distance between my original location and the enemies' base (ie. lots of places to fall back to in an attempt to maintain optimal range/cover), I wasn't getting kills, and I wasn't dishing out tonnes of damage - but it worked, the enemies' advance was slowed, I was thoroughly entertained, plus we won the match!

The sad part is, I was destroyed moments before my partner cap'd their base.... Glad that Mech's have an ejection seat - I lived to fight another battle!

[Furiel]

I'm a little jealous of that kill count...not going to lie. My best kill count thus far happened this weekend. Wish I would have take a SS because for me it was an epic match...Catapault C-4 running 15x2 and 5x2 and 2 ML, bagged 3 kills, 8 assists (I missed someone somehow...disappointing) and 882 damage. I serious sat there staring dumbfounded at the screen for several seconds trying to figure out how I pulled that off because that was a personal best by a pretty significant amount for me. Then I wanted to launch into a speech thanking all my teammates who knew what the R key was that made it possible, but then realized it was a PUG drop so they couldn't hear me.

[Barkem Squirrel]

Furiel, on 10 March 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I wish to knew how you can steal kills "quite often" with a LRM boat, because my experience has been quite the opposite. I haven't been LRMing for long, only have about 150 drops between my 2 LRM boats, but I'm averaging 1 kill every 2 matches, and gotten multiple kills in a single match a handful of times at best. Getting a kill with a LRM boat is actually pretty hard because you have no ability to pinpoint damage. Even if someone is all beat up and has a torso open there is no guarantee that a missile will hit that open torso. Assuming of course the missile even gets there due to AMS, cover, etc. it's still splash damage all over the mech, and while it's likely you'll get a some hits on an exposed area when you are hitting with 30-40 missiles (assuming no AMS coverage) it's still only a few points of damage to that area that isn't likely to destoy it compared to being able to blow it out in 1 or 2 shots that are delivered in less time with an AC, LL or PPC.

I have seen this problem and notice two solutions:

Vary the size of the missile racks or chain fire. This is time between hits or time on target.

The other is tracking, using NARC, Artemis or TAG. More hit and are more focused.


One Griffon I fire a LRM 15, LRM 10 and two LRM 5's. So that is 35 missiles the first volley, then the recharge times allow for different timing. So instead of every 4.75 seconds for an LRM 20's I am firing every 4.25 for the LRM 15, 3.75 for the LRM 10 and 3.25 for the LRM 5's. I have different times over time that LRMs are hitting the target. It is that or chain fire. Remember how many times do you even lob 4 salvos at one target or even get to fire for 15 seconds at once for one target.

We want time on target. Missiles hitting again and again, just not at once.

You do need to watch for AMS firing and even change targets due to it. Or wait for all LRMs to reload and fire all at once again.

It is knowing the maps, can they get away from my LRMS. Knowing the mech, is it too fast to bother. Seeing the damage chart, smelling blood in the water with a red CT. Seeing AMS either from it or another close mech. These are all part of what you have to take in for what you decide to do.

I had a match over the weekend where one or two flights of missiles and killed three other mechs i never saw, but the fourth kill was with an AC 20 on an atlas. Then I watched as LRM's melted the targets in front of me. I had two LRM boats walking behind me and the other flanking atlas in support.

If you get someone in the open on Caustic or alpine, it is game over with tag and artemis. Even an atlas with loose it's CT fast to LRM's. 15 to 20 seconds is all you need. Of course I have hit an atlas and questioned when will this thing die, due to the damage spread without TAG and artemis.

One thing I did not mention was using six port missile points for multiple LRM 10's LRM 15's or LRM 20's. Again more time on target at the loss to one big volley.

[Kjudoon]

You know, it always amazes me how so many people can seem to think that a third of all weapon systems in the game is just... worthless. Then they scream about LRM rain when they hit a PUG that went LRM crazy. Orwellian double think may be a survival trait for some, but it doesn't win in the arena of logical arguments

The same people will often complain about how easy it is to hit a target with LRMs and that it takes no skill to do it, but cannot field a decent LRM mech if forced to do so either.

LRMs are being stymied by the electronic warfare componant of MWO while no other systems are. Maybe if ECM isn't overpowred like lots of anti-LRM supporters believe, we should include ECM counters to energy weapons and ACs. Maybe introduce a stealth shield that allows you to lock on target with missiles, but is too large a box for direct fire weapons to use as firing references because the mech is invisible and the box too big or jitters.

LRMs are worth it, but they must be, as all other systems, used in proper context and functionality.