22 replies to this topic

[Tvae]

I was recently discussing the upcoming Project Phoenix mechs with my brother, when we reached the BattleMaster and my brother expressed that he wasn't fully happy with it. We discussed it further, figured out the main issues he had with it, and made up some mockups to improve it. Then yesterday, I saw this thread and figured... why not just ask on the forums?

The main change we discussed was for the antenna. The BattleMaster traditionally has 2 antenna, and it just doesn't quite feel the same without the second. My brother and I both agreed that this was the most important change, and if only one of these changes could be implemented, we would prefer it be this one.

BattleMaster Auxit (copied from my brother's post, two down from mine)

Spoiler

After that, we discussed possible changes to the cockpit. However, having seen the recent image of the Battlemaster that was posted on twitter, the cockpit already looks plenty represented - yet the second antennae was still missing. As such, I have kept the request for the second antennae, but have archived the rest of the original post below:

Spoiler

Next, we discussed the cockpit. The cockpit of the BattleMaster has always been a bit bulbous and oversized, and that does seem well represented in the new art, if a bit more protected for realism. However, out of curiosity, I decided to mess around with the cockpit, just to see how it would look.

The first change was to stretch the cockpit out fully just to see how it would look with a more traditionally sized cockpit.

BattleMaster Overseer

Spoiler

Although it looked interesting, it does seem a bit... Overexposed. As such, the last two designs combine the two cockpits in different ways. The first has a more protected back, with a more open front, which while not bad, doesn't look as much like the BattleMaster.

BattleMaster Bulwark

Spoiler

And finally, my personal favorite - the cockpit with a protected front and a more open back part. It appears open like the traditional BattleMaster, with a more protected front side to make it a bit more realistic.

BattleMaster Ironjaw

Spoiler

Any thoughts?

(Also check out my brother's post two down from mine.)

Edited by Tvae, 08 October 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[Syllogy]

I think that they look a lot better than this:

[DetnnoSound]

Tvae's brother checking in.

I certainly agree that the original Battlemaster design was in need of a facelift to bring it in line with the current range of MWO 'mechs. However, while the new model was very close to what I imagined (and hoped) it might look like, there was something about the new model that just didn't say, "Battlemaster" to me. A certain iconic characteristic. I looked at a number of other posts which suggested a wide range of changes. There was quite a bit of variation in their substance, but several of them made mention of the fact that it only had one antennae.

It couldn't possibly be that simple of a fix, could it?

My brother and I mocked it up, and to my amazement, it was. The second antennae- it was missing piece. Suddenly, I went from feeling like it was somehow incomplete, to thinking it's one of the best redesigns in the game.

I got rid of the words "Project Phoenix" across the top, just to show a little more clearly the difference in aesthetic the second antennae really brings to this model. To reiterate what my brother said, I feel this is the one change which most enhances the design.

Spoiler

I also went ahead and mocked one up with the antennae pointing outward in a V-shape, closer to how they were positioned on the old design. I rejected it, though- I don't think it appropriately matches the rest of the updated design.

Spoiler

Interested to hear others' opinions.

*Edited for incompetence of a first-time poster...

Edited by DetnnoSound, 13 September 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Foxdie]

The double Antenna idea is my fave. The cockpit editing doesn't hit as hard to me. Def game for the Antenna change tho. Up-vote.

[Karyudo ds]

I do like the double straight antenna. At least for the Phoenix version. I'd agree with Foxdie a bit on the cockpit exploration. I think part of it may be due to this thing being a bit chunky to me. More cockpit was what I would have expected, but up higher. Having more of it that low seems to almost make it seem even fatter than it already did which compared to the Bigfoot it already was. Really curious to see what designs they went through.

[Alcom Isst]

Karyudo ds, on 13 September 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

More cockpit was what I would have expected, but up higher.

I was expecting it to be larger and up higher too. Though making it larger and having a reasonable cockpit hitbox would make the BattleMaster terribly susceptible to cockpit-shots. Shrinking it and keeping the height would also look silly.

Syllogy, on 13 September 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

I think that they look a lot better than this:

Spoiler

Or this:

Also I noticed that the arm-gun is placed in the right arm for the MWO version, instead of the left.

Edited by Alcom Isst, 14 September 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[Hexenhammer]

Funny how the double antenna helps capture the spirit of the Battlemaster.


The PPC has always been in the right arm. It's like the Thunderbolt's LRM launcher. The picture has it on the left torso but its mounted in the right. I wouldn't mind if the thunderbolt matched the picture. A Phoenix Thunderbolt that matched the original picture (lrm on the left) would be unique with the regulars having it on the right.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 14 September 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

The Battlemaster is a direct port of the HT-128 Bigfoot mecha found in Fang of the Sun: Dougram. It is a two seater mech, hence the large cockpit glass.

http://www.collectio...ot_ht128?page=5

The PGI re-imaginings of the classic mecha is pretty gorram good, IMHO. Worrying about the number of antennae is OCD and frankly, a waste of time.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 14 September 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Karyudo ds]

Alcom Isst, on 14 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

I was expecting it to be larger and up higher too. Though making it larger and having a reasonable cockpit hitbox would make the BattleMaster terribly susceptible to cockpit-shots. Shrinking it and keeping the height would also look silly.

Well I think the Bigfoot's cockpit was a dual seater to begin with but if you look at what they did with the Atlas they shrunk the actual hitbox to a logical area. Maybe just make it look a bit beefed up so it wouldn't entirely be head. I'm not even really thinking all that much.

Of course this is just a concept. Who knows how exactly it will end up.

Alcom Isst, on 14 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Also I noticed that the arm-gun is placed in the right arm for the MWO version, instead of the left.

Oddly enough as mentioned I think the stats and art didn't match (a FASA-isim) though the Fanpro version fixed it.

Edited by Karyudo ds, 14 September 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Tvae]

Gremlich Johns, on 14 September 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

The Battlemaster is a direct port of the HT-128 Bigfoot mecha found in Fang of the Sun: Dougram. It is a two seater mech, hence the large cockpit glass.

http://www.collectio...ot_ht128?page=5

The PGI re-imaginings of the classic mecha is pretty gorram good, IMHO. Worrying about the number of antennae is OCD and frankly, a waste of time.

Even the Battlemaster in mechwarrior has a two-seater versions. It's unlikely we'll ever see two-seater mechs in MWO (seriously, how would that work...), but it is something which they carried over. Still, since we only have the one-seat versions, a larger cockpit isn't really necessary - I just wanted to see how it looks.

On the other hand, I think that it would be such a small thing to add a second antenna, there's no reason not to.

[Joseph Mallan]

Syllogy, on 13 September 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

I think that they look a lot better than this:

No they don't in my eyes. They are an awesome looking Mech, but THAT is a Beautiful Battlemaster.

Alcom Isst, on 14 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

I was expecting it to be larger and up higher too. Though making it larger and having a reasonable cockpit hitbox would make the BattleMaster terribly susceptible to cockpit-shots. Shrinking it and keeping the height would also look silly.



Or this:

Also I noticed that the arm-gun is placed in the right arm for the MWO version, instead of the left.

Note... Mech weapons were capable of being right and left handed for those sinister members.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 02 October 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[AdamBaines]

I like the double antenna, but I'm ok with the current cockpit. Im sure also that they have to stay away from the more bulbous cockpit because of the copyright infringement issues with Dougram. It can be similar but still has to be different. Same witht he Wolverine not having the ball turret gun on its nose.

Thanks for the concepts guy. Very cool.

[Gaan Cathal]

Tvae, on 02 October 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Even the Battlemaster in mechwarrior has a two-seater versions. It's unlikely we'll ever see two-seater mechs in MWO (seriously, how would that work...), but it is something which they carried over. Still, since we only have the one-seat versions, a larger cockpit isn't really necessary - I just wanted to see how it looks.

On the other hand, I think that it would be such a small thing to add a second antenna, there's no reason not to.

We obviously won't see functional dual cockpits, but it's my understanding that the -DC in AS7-D-DC stands for Dual Cockpit, so they're already present, just (wisely) not functionally.

[Tvae]

Gaan Cathal, on 02 October 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

We obviously won't see functional dual cockpits, but it's my understanding that the -DC in AS7-D-DC stands for Dual Cockpit, so they're already present, just (wisely) not functionally.

Oh wow, how did I not notice that before... Seems rather obvious in retrospect.

According to Sarna, apparently the AS7-K also has a dual cockpit version, as do the ON1-V and ON1-M. Although, Sarna also goes on to say that the canon-icity of dual cockpit variants is often debated, since the functionality is pretty much identical to just implementing a Command Console... So maybe we'll just see those variants have the ability to add Command Consoles instead, once it actually does something.

[Gaan Cathal]

Tvae, on 02 October 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Oh wow, how did I not notice that before... Seems rather obvious in retrospect.

According to Sarna, apparently the AS7-K also has a dual cockpit version, as do the ON1-V and ON1-M. Although, Sarna also goes on to say that the canon-icity of dual cockpit variants is often debated, since the functionality is pretty much identical to just implementing a Command Console... So maybe we'll just see those variants have the ability to add Command Consoles instead, once it actually does something.

Well, they used it as an excuse to give it ECM capability and the most module slots with the AS7-D-DC, so I guess an AS7-K-DC is probably redundant (AS7-K with ECM?). If they decide to do an ECM heavy, I guess I could see an ON1-V-DC or ON1-M-DC. For all it's high tonnage, it's not exactly an exceptionally good heavy at the moment.

[Tvae]

Gaan Cathal, on 02 October 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Well, they used it as an excuse to give it ECM capability and the most module slots with the AS7-D-DC, so I guess an AS7-K-DC is probably redundant (AS7-K with ECM?). If they decide to do an ECM heavy, I guess I could see an ON1-V-DC or ON1-M-DC. For all it's high tonnage, it's not exactly an exceptionally good heavy at the moment.

Yeah, I find it somewhat odd that heavy currently has no ecm-capable mechs. I definitely agree with how PGI isn't putting them on every mech, meaning that specific variants can be balanced around it (though in some cases, like the D-DC, the base mech is almost better than the other variants even without ECM). I do think there should be at least 1 heavy, though, and the Orion could fit that role pretty well (also all Ravens should be able to carry it; they are supposed to be THE information warfare mech, after all).

[Gaan Cathal]

Tvae, on 04 October 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Yeah, I find it somewhat odd that heavy currently has no ecm-capable mechs. I definitely agree with how PGI isn't putting them on every mech, meaning that specific variants can be balanced around it (though in some cases, like the D-DC, the base mech is almost better than the other variants even without ECM).

I believe the reason the Spider, Atlas and Cicada got ECM is that whilst none of the ingame variants get ECM, there are future variants that do. And having the best 100t death machine able to do the EWAR game was important. Can't have a single sub-part Light the only one able to do it, not fair on the other weight classes.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Syllogy, on 13 September 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

I think that they look a lot better than this:

It has the same slightly off-kilter looking perspective and flat surface fetish that all the old art had, but I really love design. There's something subtle about the curve of the bubble canopy, the proportions, and the stance that makes it an instant classic in a way that PGI's isn't. Not to say the PGI version isn't great or I don't like, I really do, it just doesn't have the same "magic," and that's coming from someone who doesn't even KNOW anybody who plays the TT.

[Imperius]

I'm happy with how it is. So I say a big NO. I want my Battlemaster t on Oct 15 not November because they had to put on an antenna.

[Tvae]

Imperius, on 04 October 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I'm happy with how it is. So I say a big NO. I want my Battlemaster t on Oct 15 not November because they had to put on an antenna.

Given how many mechs they've made, I'm sure they've gotten the process to the point that I highly doubt a simple geometry change such as this would really result in any delay.

And even if they decide not to give it a second antenna right at launch because they are worried about delaying it, no reason they couldn't just hold off and attach it in a later patch.