70 replies to this topic

[Decep-Qi-Kons]

UPDATE: I am prefacing my original post with this small clip because I think it is a bit more concise.

Quote

But in TT, it wasn't niche, it was everywhere after 3050. It replaced AC20's, AC10's, AC5's, and in some cases, lasers and PPC's

And, no, this isn't table top, but it is based on a table top game, and all the mechs that use the Gauss, that we buy with our money, are not optimized to use it.

The only mech that seems optimized to use it is the Jager. It doesn't even come with one.

So we have this dilemma. We have all these assets that depend on the gauss. The gauss has been niched. There is now a void of weapons that the gauss changes have left because we can't have a big punch weapon like the AC20, because it won't fit, the LB-10x, the next big punch weapon, which matches the heat envelope of the gauss, doesn't have a solid projectile and is ineffective at range. The AC10 has neither the punch, the range, the projectile speed, nor the heat envelope of the Gauss, we can't use PPC's because, hello, ballistic hardpoint, and the UAC5 is going to be nerfed next because it's the soup du jour.

Even the AC2 can't replace it because the heat mechanic is ******.

They took one NOT OP weapon out of the game, and now the one TRULY OP ballistic weapon is the only choice.
This isn't a problem? This close to release?

First, before anyone accuses me of being a newb, I submit the following evidence to the contrary, captured moments ago.



AWWWW YEAH! I love you Darth Jager!

Now that that is out of the way, I would like to continue with a constructive discussion.

I have tried to be a good little beta tester and give an exhaustive description of my experience with the new gauss mechanic.

I tried to expand on that, again, this morning, but I realized something fundamentally wrong with the logic and reasoning behind the new mechanic.

In the NGNG Podcasts (1, 2, 3) Bryan Ekman explains the reasoning behind the new mechanic. He stated that he wanted to add a mechanic similar to the "breath mechanic" of various First Person Shooters. He says that the gauss is a sniper weapon and, thus, should be treated like one.

The only trouble is, it's not a sniper weapon. A sniper weapon is one shot, one kill, so the sacrifice of mobility and opportunity for engagement are well worth the risk.

But this doesn't, and shouldn't, happen in Mechwarrior. Even with dual AC20's, there is little chance of causing a one shot kill. So the assumption that the gauss is analogous to a sniper rifle, and thus, requires a similar mechanic, is bogus.

This mechanic doesn't carry a value worth the risk.

There are many other reasons this mechanic fails, specifically, in MWO:

• This game has too diverse a field of enemies for the specialized sniper. This isn't Battlefield where all the opponents are the same size, shape, and speed (more or less). Light mechs can, literally, run 3 times faster than assaults and they stand half as tall and half as wide
  
• In an FPS, your target reticle moves at the speed of your mouse. In MWO, your tracking speed is limited by your turn and twist speeds, making the mechs heavy enough to equip a gauss AND other weapons, too slow to wield one.
  
• In an FPS, the breath mechanic MAY cause you to miss, or it MAY just cause you to make a less fatal shot, but still doing considerable damage. The gauss mechanic, as it stands, if you fail it, you get no shot at all. This is not REMOTELY analogous.
  
• Because a gauss weapon can't single shot a mech, sniping with one gives away your position and makes you easy pickings for light mechs. It's like advertising "shoot me, I'm defenseless."
  
• It's really hard to get good cover in a mech, especially since so many of them have poor fitting hard points for use behind cover. Sniping in MWO leaves you out in the wide open.
  
• Being in the wide open and navigating a cumbersome mechanic is a liability.

Sniping in an FPS and using a gauss, there's just no relation.




One final point, all the mechs that equip the Gauss in their stock build, none of them are set up for sniping. The weapons are usually in low slung arms. Canonically, how would this be reconciled?

As it stands, now, only a jager is set up to be a classical sniper, and it doesn't come with one, stock.

I am giving my input, not because I want to whine, but because I want this game to be executed in a way that makes it successful. This huge change, so close to release, makes this game seem so unready and it's team of developers incapable of tuning the game in a "release" environment. This is a violent swing with an untested change that makes the game frustrating to everyone as they struggle to adapt.

I don't want to pay for a game (*sigh* and I have, to the tune of $120) that constantly frustrates me on a biweekly basis.

I should also point out that I have purchase hero mechs where the Gauss was a critical component, and now these money pits have been altered in a way that reduces their value to me, and I cannot return them for a refund.

This should not be happening. People giving you money should not feel robbed.

My Heavy Metal? I have been fighting with new strategies to make it worth my while to use again, and it's just repeated disappointment. If I could mount an AC20 in it's arm, I'd feel less badly, but now, it's UAC5 or bust.

And now that the UAC5 is Soup Du Jour, we can expect that to get nerfed, and cause frustration, too. Without testing and feedback, of course.

OK, I am done with the Gauss, I have said all I think I can say, and I have certainly exhausted my desire to play it. I hope you find this useful feedback. That is all I wish.

Edited by Killkie, 17 September 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[Waking One]

one decent game in a jager doesn't mean you're particularly good

more weapon variety is good

your wall of text is pointless, it works fine

also lol at wanting refunds for hero mechs due to nerfs

Edited by Waking One, 15 September 2013 - 07:05 PM.

[Rengakun]

Waking One, on 15 September 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

1) one decent game in a jager doesn't mean you're particularly good

2) more weapon variety is good

3) your wall of text is pointless, it works fine

1) Meh.

2) What does this have to do with the topic?

3) Tell us why. Does it really work fine with the way Battlemechs are supposed to be used? Do explain further.

[R5D4]

Killkie, on 15 September 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

There are many other reasons this mechanic fails, specifically, in MWO:

• This game has too diverse a field of enemies for the specialized sniper. This isn't Battlefield where all the opponents are the same size, shape, and speed (more or less). Light mechs can, literally, run 3 times faster than assaults and they stand half as tall and half as wide
  
• In an FPS, your target reticle moves at the speed of your mouse. In MWO, your tracking speed is limited by your turn and twist speeds, making the mechs heavy enough to equip a gauss AND other weapons, too slow to wield one.
  
• In an FPS, the breath mechanic MAY cause you to miss, or it MAY just cause you to make a less fatal shot, but still doing considerable damage. The gauss mechanic, as it stands, if you fail it, you get no shot at all. This is not REMOTELY analogous.
  
• Because a gauss weapon can't single shot a mech, sniping with one gives away your position and makes you easy pickings for light mechs. It's like advertising "shoot me, I'm defenseless."
  
• It's really hard to get good cover in a mech, especially since so many of them have poor fitting hard points for use behind cover. Sniping in MWO leaves you out in the wide open.
  
• Being in the wide open and navigating a cumbersome mechanic is a liability.

Sniping in an FPS and using a gauss, there's just no relation.

Well put, I throughly agree.

I would also point out that in those podcasts you reference there was no mention (at least that I heard) of making the Gauss change to improve weapon balance. It seems it was more a move to "differentiate" the Gauss from PPC's which I would argue was completely unnecessary as they were already very different. I mean come on, how many 4+ Gauss rigs did we see running around vs. 4+ PPC boats?

Edited by R5D4, 15 September 2013 - 07:47 PM.

[RandomLurker]

Well said OP. I have nothing to add, except that I agree.

[Jaguar Prime]

The way I play, 600m is midrange. (I usually don't miss shots under 600m) So saying a weapon that does optimal damage at 600m is a sniper weapon is rather dumb to me. If they made it do optimal damage at 900m with it's current mechanics, I would consider taking it off the shelf.

[Eleshod]

It was too much, pinpoint, instant snap shot damage 15 points of potential armor piercing was far to much for a weapon you could call on with a click.

[Drasari]

Well put OP. The change to the gauss was not warranted or needed.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Killkie, on 15 September 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

First, before anyone accuses me of being a newb, I submit the following evidence to the contrary, captured moments ago.



AWWWW YEAH! I love you Darth Jager!

Now that that is out of the way, I would like to continue with a constructive discussion.

I have tried to be a good little beta tester and give an exhaustive description of my experience with the new gauss mechanic.

I tried to expand on that, again, this morning, but I realized something fundamentally wrong with the logic and reasoning behind the new mechanic.

In the NGNG Podcasts (1, 2, 3) Bryan Ekman explains the reasoning behind the new mechanic. He stated that he wanted to add a mechanic similar to the "breath mechanic" of various First Person Shooters. He says that the gauss is a sniper weapon and, thus, should be treated like one.

The only trouble is, it's not a sniper weapon. A sniper weapon is one shot, one kill, so the sacrifice of mobility and opportunity for engagement are well worth the risk.

But this doesn't, and shouldn't, happen in Mechwarrior. Even with dual AC20's, there is little chance of causing a one shot kill. So the assumption that the gauss is analogous to a sniper rifle, and thus, requires a similar mechanic, is bogus.

This mechanic doesn't carry a value worth the risk.

There are many other reasons this mechanic fails, specifically, in MWO:

• This game has too diverse a field of enemies for the specialized sniper. This isn't Battlefield where all the opponents are the same size, shape, and speed (more or less). Light mechs can, literally, run 3 times faster than assaults and they stand half as tall and half as wide
  
• In an FPS, your target reticle moves at the speed of your mouse. In MWO, your tracking speed is limited by your turn and twist speeds, making the mechs heavy enough to equip a gauss AND other weapons, too slow to wield one.
  
• In an FPS, the breath mechanic MAY cause you to miss, or it MAY just cause you to make a less fatal shot, but still doing considerable damage. The gauss mechanic, as it stands, if you fail it, you get no shot at all. This is not REMOTELY analogous.
  
• Because a gauss weapon can't single shot a mech, sniping with one gives away your position and makes you easy pickings for light mechs. It's like advertising "shoot me, I'm defenseless."
  
• It's really hard to get good cover in a mech, especially since so many of them have poor fitting hard points for use behind cover. Sniping in MWO leaves you out in the wide open.
  
• Being in the wide open and navigating a cumbersome mechanic is a liability.

Sniping in an FPS and using a gauss, there's just no relation.







One final point, all the mechs that equip the Gauss in their stock build, none of them are set up for sniping. The weapons are usually in low slung arms. Canonically, how would this be reconciled?

As it stands, now, only a jager is set up to be a classical sniper, and it doesn't come with one, stock.

I am giving my input, not because I want to whine, but because I want this game to be executed in a way that makes it successful. This huge change, so close to release, makes this game seem so unready and it's team of developers incapable of tuning the game in a "release" environment. This is a violent swing with an untested change that makes the game frustrating to everyone as they struggle to adapt.

I don't want to pay for a game (*sigh* and I have, to the tune of $120) that constantly frustrates me on a biweekly basis.

I should also point out that I have purchase hero mechs where the Gauss was a critical component, and now these money pits have been altered in a way that reduces their value to me, and I cannot return them for a refund.

This should not be happening. People giving you money should not feel robbed.

My Heavy Metal? I have been fighting with new strategies to make it worth my while to use again, and it's just repeated disappointment. If I could mount an AC20 in it's arm, I'd feel less badly, but now, it's UAC5 or bust.

And now that the UAC5 is Soup Du Jour, we can expect that to get nerfed, and cause frustration, too. Without testing and feedback, of course.

OK, I am done with the Gauss, I have said all I think I can say, and I have certainly exhausted my desire to play it. I hope you find this useful feedback. That is all I wish.

A sniper is skilled marksmen who fires from a concealed area, the weapon does not have to posses the capacity to one shot kill. A Dual gauss can't headshot a a mech with full 18 armor on the head, and that is how it should be, mechs should very rarely suffer from one shot deaths.

Why? Cause
1. There are no respawns, matches last about 10 min each.
2. This is not Battlefield, this is a unique FPS with component based damage that values tactical design and well thought strategic thinking. Skill also plays a part as well, but obviously the game wants to reward more than twitch based reflexes with your aim, I.E all the laser weapons require you to keep your weapon focused on the component you are targeting, in addition most ballistic weapons in the game don't strike instantly, you need proper timing and leading to hit consistently with them. This is also true for the PPC and finally, the Gauss has a charge up time, which values timing as well as a steady hand.

These attributes are what made this game different from Battlefield, Call of Duty, and all the other major shooters out there, it rewards tactical and stragetic thinking first, and coming in behind it, are skill sets that traditionally usually are not really needed for most shooters.

This is why I play mechwarrior, because it is a unique shooter, It is still an FPS, just a different type, the day they change it to be more twitch based in terms of skill, is the day I stop playing.(if I wanted a game where twitch based aiming was the pinnacle of skill I'd play a generic fps) I like mechwarrior the way it is, UAC5 meta excluded

Edited by PalmaRoma, 15 September 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

ITT [redacted] sniper meta {Noble MechWarriors} who are [redacted] that their all range cannons of choice got changed up to promote use in their intended roles

Edited by miSs, 17 September 2013 - 10:19 AM.
language

[Morikuro]

ITT [Redacted] frustration from the sniper meta where the rage is so longstanding they can't help trolling the threads to pick fights even after the meta was changed. [Redacted]

Edited by Niko Snow, 16 September 2013 - 07:22 AM.
Abusive language

[akpavker]

Waking One, on 15 September 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

one decent game in a jager doesn't mean you're particularly good

more weapon variety is good

your wall of text is pointless, it works fine

also lol at wanting refunds for hero mechs due to nerfs

funny you laugh at someone wanting a refund on hero mechs......

alot of people i play with have payed for the phoenix pack and want refunds due to multiple nerfs. i dought they will get their refunds and it is a typical pitfall of purchaseing a game before it is released.

[Psydotek]

(i still think the "charging" mechanic should have gone to the PPC instead of the Gauss Rifle. The Gauss Rifle is supposed to be already charged and ready to fire when the cooldown [recharge?] timer hits zero, hence the reason it explodes when hit. It would make more sense to have the PPC as the weapon that needs to be "charged" before firing which would make it challenging to use at close range...)

[ColourfulConfetti]

Psydotek, on 15 September 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

(i still think the "charging" mechanic should have gone to the PPC instead of the Gauss Rifle. The Gauss Rifle is supposed to be already charged and ready to fire when the cooldown [recharge?] timer hits zero, hence the reason it explodes when hit. It would make more sense to have the PPC as the weapon that needs to be "charged" before firing which would make it challenging to use at close range...)

The PPC is like less than half the tonnage than gauss and generates alot more heat, the gauss on the other hand, generates none at all, its projectile is much faster, and it does 5 more damage than ppcs, both weapons are in a decent place now. The charge mechanic is honestly, a very light nerf, and the buffs far outweigh the nerf, it is actually pretty easy to use the gauss once you get used to the new mechanic.

[Morikuro]

PalmaRoma, on 15 September 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

The PPC is like less than half the tonnage than gauss and generates alot more heat, the gauss on the other hand, generates none at all, its projectile is much faster, and it does 5 more damage than ppcs, both weapons are in a decent place now. The charge mechanic is honestly, a very light nerf, and the buffs far outweigh the nerf, it is actually pretty easy to use the gauss once you get used to the new mechanic.

It's not hard to use once you get used to it, though it is a double penalty since the thing still blows up any time it is hit, not just when you're charging it up. Capacitors what?

Edited by Morikuro, 15 September 2013 - 10:29 PM.

[akpavker]

Psydotek, on 15 September 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

(i still think the "charging" mechanic should have gone to the PPC instead of the Gauss Rifle. The Gauss Rifle is supposed to be already charged and ready to fire when the cooldown [recharge?] timer hits zero, hence the reason it explodes when hit. It would make more sense to have the PPC as the weapon that needs to be "charged" before firing which would make it challenging to use at close range...)

ppc has a 90 meter minimum range and deals no damage under that range and ERppc's output massive amounts of heat. if the ppc's were given a charge time aswell it would have been a massive over nerf concidering that ppc's are now worse then what they were 6 months ago when allmost no 1 used them.

[MustrumRidcully]

There is yet another facet to it:

In M:WO, we're n ot wielding a single weapon. We're wielding a mix of weapons. We have only a very limited timeframe to use them all if we actually want to use them effectively. The Gauss Rifle makes this even more complicated, by occupying you and your trigger button for 0.75 seconds minimum.

So, mixing the Gauss Rifle with other weapons is now completely out. And the Gauss is, range-wise at least, not the only "sniper" type weapon. PPCs, ER LLs, AC/5, AC/2... Too bad, you won't use together anymore.

But you can, of course, use a boat. Hooray. We all like our boats, don't we? It's great too have another mechanic to encourage boating instead of mixed weapon builds.

[Hythos]

Eleshod, on 15 September 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

It was too much, pinpoint, instant snap shot damage 15 points of potential armor piercing was far to much for a weapon you could call on with a click.

... At 15 tons, a considerable % of the total tonnage.... Which doesn't really compare to your point, being invalidated, by the new faster speed being even more 'pin-point'. Furthermore, AC's are that way: high velocity.

An element to defeat and invalidate the "charge up" mechanic, is time: .75 seconds to charge; Ssssssooooooooo.
The charge-time takes less than the Reload time. Ok, great - if I'm a Mechwarrior, I'm gonna start charging the capacitors before the slug is loaded so it'll fire as soon as it's aligned.
"oh, the loading mechanism doesn't work that way" ... Hmm guess Ultra AC's are light years more advanced than single-loads that use no propellant... (the answer is actually in support of a simpler loading mechanism).

Wanna talk maths? A 'Mech's fusion engine produces Megawatts of energy (I'm on my phone and don't want to type out the proof) - but consider the simple function of the conservation of energy (which defeats Ghost Heat, but I'm not arguing that ATM); Basically, every 1pt of heat (Battletech Scale) = 100deg Fahrenheit; 30heat=3000-deg F - so naturally, things catastrophically fail, if temps even make it that high. A PPC generates 1000-deg F, which hopefully, quickly transfers to heats inks for dissipation.

The Gauss Rifle shell weighs ~250lb, less ammunition feed linkage, etc., and is largely Nickel: ~.32lb / cu.in.; 250/.32 =~800cu.in. = roughly about 10"dia x 30" length. The size is for referencing possible wind-resistance - which is technically irrelevant anyway, considering a pilot could use an improvised projectile like a steel girder off of a building for a near useful effect.

With regards to the energy required to propel the volume and mass of the projectile... Again, I'm on my phone and don't want to type out the formula because we're gonna watch Dexter now.. But ~4.2 MegaWatts should be far more than sufficient to achieve 2,000m/s velocity.

Arguement: "Capacitance can only hold it charged for 1.5 seconds..." Not true in Bartletech; that's where all the extra tonnage comes from: Capacitors.

If I care enough, I might post the actual energy required and mass necessary for cap's (that lads, meas capacitors in electrical-lingo).

[ColourfulConfetti]

Morikuro, on 15 September 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

It's not hard to use once you get used to it, though it is a double penalty since the thing still blows up any time it is hit, not just when you're charging it up. Capacitors what?

It takes more time to trigger an ammo explosion though and the projectile speed, insane range, no heat and sheer damage make it a very powerful sniper weapon, I guarantee you will always beat large lasers, or normal ppc based mechs if you engage at around 900m, it isn't always possible of course, but the range and the less severe damage falloff really work wonders with this weapon. And people claiming it is hard to brawl with it, it is not, you can still use it effectively in brawl, they just take more skill to use properly.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 15 September 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[Morikuro]

PalmaRoma, on 15 September 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

It takes more time to trigger an ammo explosion though and the projectile speed, insane range, no heat and sheer damage make it a very powerful sniper weapon, I guarantee you will always beat large lasers, or normal ppc based mechs if you engage at around 900m, it isn't always possible of course, but the range and the less severe damage falloff really work wonders with this weapon. And people claiming it is hard to brawl with it, it is not, you can still use it effectively in brawl, they just take more skill to use properly.

Go ahead and make it trigger an ammo explosion - when I'm charging it. If that system is going to be in the game it ought to be internally consistent with the logic used elsewhere. I can brawl with it just fine, but if it's blowing up just cause there's potential energy feed, why the hell aren't my lasers also detonating? They have energy lines open to the reactor. Clearly it's not the capacitors since I have to do that manually.