79 replies to this topic

[travelbug]

what he is saying is that you either have to use mc or go thru the grind and it does have some ring of truth to it.

although new players get their cadet bonus, this is just enough to buy one new mech with some weapons and enhancements.
however you will need two other mechs to level out your variant past basic - and it is advancing in the pilot tree that separates competive mechs from standard builds and not necessarily the loadouts. so you either have to go thru the grind again or buy mechs via mc.

once youve elited/mastered your three variants, you will either have to sell off two or buy mechbays if you want to level up another mech. once youve mastered two variants, you are almost forced to buy mech bays if you want to level up a third mech. sure you could level up a third mech with only two spare bays but the grind would be unbelievably tedious as you would have to sell(at half price) and buy two mechs twice over.


edit:

now in a perfect world, new pilots would be matched up against similarly new ones with equally ineffective mechs and this wouldnt be much of an issue. however in a flawed elo or matchmaking algorithm and/or a small player population, the new player could very well be matched up against veterans in mastered mechs. and thats essentially where the frustration sets in.

Edited by travelbug, 16 September 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[Dalziel Hasek Davion]

Ymirok, on 15 September 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Hello. It's me. Generic new guy.

Hello and welcome!

Quote

Why can't it be like Dota 2? Now don't get mad and tell me I can't compare it to a MOBA (or ARTS if you so desire).

You know, all the heroes (think of them as 'mechs) are available to you right off the bat. There is no payment (or tedious grinding for that matter) to unlock that which is VITAL GAME ASSETS. There is no rotation. Everything is available. Pretty crazy, right?

You are talking about trial 'Mechs. A new player has to weather 25 matches in trial 'Mechs to earn around 10m C-Bills (8m cadet bonus and 2m normal earnings). This is enough to buy almost any chassis in the game, including an Assault 'Mech.

There are various possible reasons for this design decision. Firstly it gets a new player used to the controls and different size chassis with different capabilities. Secondly it gives them time to explore the forums, Smurfy's Mechlab, mechspecs.com and other community assets for help, advice and to find team-mates. Thirdly it creates a sense of earning the 'Mech you pilot and feeling a sense of achievement (even if you can't get this from winning).

These are valid design choices that have a few down-sides. The trial 'Mechs are (mostly) under equipped and early matches can feel, to a new player, like pushing boulders uphill. The cadet bonus is not advertised very well and can set poor expectations of earning rate leading to poor purchasing decisions. A new player has to build a stable of 'Mechs slowly - a 'grind' exacerbated by having to level 3 variants of the same chassis to unlock the most favourable 'Mech skills in the skill tree.

Your suggestion of a free and unhindered choice of 'Mech chassis is, similarly, a valid design choice, but comes with it's own pros and cons. For example, I would imagine the player retention rate being much lower as there is no sense of achievement at earning a particular 'Mech and, if they keep losing anyway, there is absolutely nothing motivating them to stay in the game.

This game universe has a wealth of back-story and a devoted and passionate following of players, many of whom love collecting different 'Mechs - perhaps to feed nostalgia - perhaps from a sense of completeness. The devs realise this and have created a business model that allows them to use the acquisition of 'Mechs to drive player retention and revenue generation (Phoenix, Sabre, new 'Mech bays et al).

From what I can see, this business model has been very successful. Even with extremely thin gameplay (two modes, limited maps) it has already demonstrated a certain longevity.

Quote

MWO is more like League of Legends. Vital game assets are very limited to you. It'll be difficult to counter certain enemy setups. It's like having 20 Ravens (avid F2P enthusiasts) assault 20 Atlases (gullible, easily manipulated P2W sympathizers) head-on. This is only an example. I hoped you could figure this out by yourself.

As I mentioned, relatively new players (25 matches) can afford an Atlas if they want it. Assuming that anyone in an Atlas is a P2W sympathizer is insulting and wrong - most of them will have earned the CBills in game to buy one. Also, the match-maker does not put all new players (in trial 'Mechs) on one side and all experienced players (in non-trial 'Mechs) on the other. It's a mixture. You can counter heavier 'Mechs with lighter ones - but it relies on piloting skill and a particular style of gameplay.

In-short. It's a team game that takes some time to learn - and the pay-off is the ability to collect your favourite 'Mechs and, perhaps, learning how to win more often as part of a team.

Quote

The only things you can buy with real money are cosmetics and tournament tickets. To conclude; Why isn't this game more like Dota 2 in the sense of business model?

Well - the devs, to their credit, have been very careful to avoid pay-to-win, which I personally believe is a good thing. This means that they are limited in terms of what real money (Mechwarrior Credits) can buy. Extra 'Mech bays, Mech XP to General XP conversion, camo and colours, cockpit items and Hero 'Mechs, which can ease the grind, but are not essentially any better than any other 'Mech chassis of the same type.

I think it's a reasonable business model for a free-to-play game and probably better than offering players better in-game equipment for real money.

I hope you find what you're looking for from MW:LL or DOTA if that appeals to you.

[travelbug]

just to add some numbers to my above post, for example a new player(past the cadet bonus) can make an average of 50,000 cbills/match. he first bought a hunchback with his cadet but didnt like it and decided he wanted to fully master a victor.

victor ~7.5m/50k a match =150 matches;

and he wanted to add an xl engine 3mill worth of weapons and 3mill worth of enchanchments

[xl(`5.5m)+3m weapons+3m enhancements]/50k a match=230 matches

and he had to buy two other variants of the victor to fully master it

2 vtr (15m)/50k a match=300 matches

that gives you a total of 680 matches to master the vtr. however if he decided to buy all the victors it would cut down the grind to at least 230 (if this was enough to get the required xp).

so it isnt a p2w business model but it is a very, very grindy game and the business model is pay to lessen the grind.

Edited by travelbug, 16 September 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Naduk]

grinding indicates your doing a repetitive task you do not like to acquire an item you want

working in a factory packing chicken nuggets into boxes for 12 hours per day for 2 years to earn enough money to buy a car is grinding

strapping into a mech and blasting the hell out of 12 enemies per 10mins is not grinding
its called playing a game

i have put in enough hour/games to master my catapult 8 times (for the record that 516,000xp)
at no point was i grinding

[Kmieciu]

All I can say is that the "new player experience" in MWO is terrible. I was a seasoned MW2-3-4 vet and closed beta tester and I barely made it through the start of the open beta.

Trial mechs are a joke. We used to sync dropp into 8vs8 mode with trial mechs. It was unfun. The stock designs have no firepower and overheat instantly. Champion mechs are a workaround: a proof that only mechlab-optimized builds are competitive.

In War Thunder a simple biplane is loads of fun: it is easy to pilot, handles great and you can kill other guys in seconds. I got 3 kills in my very fist game! While pugging!

When I got into MWO I though: there are no tiers! it's going to be great! Well nope, it's not. It's either bring the "top tier Avatar" (Brian's Words) or go home. Right now I only use my mastered Highladers. I have no desire to buy an inferior mech. I have no desire to play a mech until I install DHS and ENDO, customize it's armor and weapons.

In Warthunder you can take a free plane to fly with your friends that just started playing. Would you willingly take a trial mech in MWO, now that you have mastered other mechs?

This is the biggest problem with MWO: it's not addictive enough to attract a lot of players. It gives a new player too little. Most of my friends left after a few days of playing. Once the cadet bonus is over, you are left with one mech and some weapons. And you hope to make 500 000 C-bills per hour.

Do you know why MWO gives so little to the new player? Because right now, when you acquire a "top tier" mech, there is little reason to play with anythings else. I hope that weight limits will change this. But once again, they are a workaround. They will prevent you from using the mechs you like while playing in your team. They will not promote the "garbage" mechs like the Dragon or Awesome.

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 September 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[travelbug]

Naduk, on 16 September 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

grinding indicates your doing a repetitive task you do not like to acquire an item you want

working in a factory packing chicken nuggets into boxes for 12 hours per day for 2 years to earn enough money to buy a car is grinding

strapping into a mech and blasting the hell out of 12 enemies per 10mins is not grinding
its called playing a game

i have put in enough hour/games to master my catapult 8 times (for the record that 516,000xp)
at no point was i grinding

sure tell that to a new player who has to go thru 600+ games to level up his suboptimal builds, many times against vets like yourself due to matchmaking issues. even i who likes the game a lot find it unbearably grindy at times especially after the cbill nerf.

it is a grind no matter how you put it.

Kmieciu, on 16 September 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

All I can say is that the "new player experience" in MWO is terrible. I was a seasoned MW2-3-4 vet and closed beta tester and I barely made it through the start of the open beta.

Trial mechs are a joke. We used to sync dropp into 8vs8 mode with trial mechs. It was unfun. The stock designs have no firepower and overheat instantly. Champion mechs are a workaround: a proof that only mechlab-optimized builds are competitive.

In War Thunder a simple biplane is loads of fun: it is easy to pilot, handles great and you can kill other guys in seconds. I got 3 kills in my very fist game! While pugging!

When I got into MWO I though: there are no tiers! it's going to be great! Well nope, it's not. It's either bring the "top tier Avatar" (Brian's Words) or go home. Right now I only use my mastered Highladers. I have no desire to buy an inferior mech. I have no desire to play a mech until I install DHS and ENDO, customize it's armor and weapons.

In Warthunder you can take a free plane to fly with your friends that just started playing. Would you willingly take a trial mech in MWO, now that you have mastered other mechs?

This is the biggest problem with MWO: it's not addictive enough to attract a lot of players. It gives a new player too little. Most of my friends left after a few days of playing. Once the cadet bonus is over, you are left with one upgraded mech and some weapons. And you hope to make 500 000 C-bills per hour.

Do you know why MWO gives so little to the new player? Because right now, when you acquire a "top tier" mech, there is little reason to play with anythings else. I hope that weight limits will change this. But once again, they are a workaround. They will prevent you from using the mechs you like while playing in your team. They will not promote the "garbage" mechs like the Dragon or Awesome.

spot on, especially the last paragraph. with one game mode and 8 maps, the grind is the only thing keeping players in the game.

Edited by travelbug, 16 September 2013 - 02:18 AM.

[Kmieciu]

travelbug, on 16 September 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

spot on, especially the last paragraph. with one game mode and 8 maps, the grind is the only thing keeping players in the game.

It's not like we have co-op missions against AI enemies :-) Or dynamic campaigns. Or a semi-realistic and a full-realistic queue.

[New Day]

Applejack, on 15 September 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

Too bad LL is dead.

One of the best if not the best BattleTech game ever, but ... ... .. .

Killed by PGI none the less.

[Modo44]

Kmieciu, on 16 September 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

It's not like we have co-op missions against AI enemies :-) Or dynamic campaigns. Or a semi-realistic and a full-realistic queue.

Or a matchmaker that doesn't frustrate noobies and veterans alike.

Community Warfare could make the early grind into a "being the grunt in a large campaign" experience, showing some goals similar to SP games. Could. As it stands, there is little sense of achievement. Once you trick out and master whatever mech suits your playstyle, you are done. Unless you were way into BattleTech before spotting MWO, but we are supposedly a small part of the target audience, right?

Edited by Modo44, 16 September 2013 - 02:27 AM.

[travelbug]

Modo44, on 16 September 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

Unless you were way into BattleTech before spotting MWO, but we are supposedly a small part of the target audience, right?

yup youre the vocal minority and pgi doesnt care about you

[Heinreich]

Kmieciu, on 15 September 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

There are no "hangars" - you can buy all of the planes (except premium ones) for in-game currency and have all at the same time! Since open beta I've collected 37 mechs. In War Thunder i got 50 planes in a week!

Personally I'd rather have the 8 mechs I have right now that I've earned and busted my *** for (well, 4 of them anyways since 4 came with Founders) that I know how to use well and use frequently than to have 50 free planes of which only a small percentage will get any actual use and the rest are just filler fodder.

[Rushin Roulette]

Kmieciu, on 16 September 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Trial mechs are a joke. We used to sync dropp into 8vs8 mode with trial mechs. It was unfun. The stock designs have no firepower and overheat instantly. Champion mechs are a workaround: a proof that only mechlab-optimized builds are competitive.

There is so much wrong with this statement that it really, really hurts (see my signature).

The German community has finished the first stock mech tournament and is about to start season 2. Only stock mechs permitted with Tier 1 Technology (no UAC, ER, Pulse, Artemis weapons. No DHS, AMS, TAG, NARC, ECM, FF or ES alowed).

The mechs are hot, deal less damage than you are used to and are badly armored.... but it is a hell of a lot more fun than Min-Max warrior online. You just have to adjust your tactics and playstyle to fit accordingly and remember that your opponents have exactly the same problems as you do.

Plus... it is not impossible to win against fullmodded teams (we have managed that... rarely during training or failed sync drops... but mostly we get our rear centre armour handed to us ).

EDIT: Sorrry, NARC is permitted as it isnt Lostech at the time of 3025. My bad.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 16 September 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[AceTimberwolf]

First He hasn't even finished his first 25 Matches so he hasn't earned his Cadet Bonus. After you finish come back and give us your impression. I for one am not entirely happy with MWO but I enjoy it very much as do many others. A lot of it Also comes with Social Interactions here so perhaps getting a Lance together will help you out more for the appreciation of MWO

[Earl White]

Naduk, on 16 September 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

grinding indicates your doing a repetitive task you do not like to acquire an item you want

Not quite, grinding is doing any repetitive task for too long before you are allowed to do something new. Example - grinding hundreds of matches before you get your 2nd mech, or grinding 3 variants of the same chassis to get it elite.

No matter how much you like something, if you have to do it so many times it will get boring.

[travelbug]

AceTimberwolf, on 16 September 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

First He hasn't even finished his first 25 Matches so he hasn't earned his Cadet Bonus. After you finish come back and give us your impression. I for one am not entirely happy with MWO but I enjoy it very much as do many others. A lot of it Also comes with Social Interactions here so perhaps getting a Lance together will help you out more for the appreciation of MWO

just because he is new doesnt make his comments invalid. he is obviously comparing the game to his other gaming experiences and in his opinion it falls terribly short.

i myself have tried to get a few friends onboard but none of them liked it. they echoed basically the same comments of the op and the grindy, limited gameplay.

the truth of the matter is, if you consider the total gamingverse, mwo has very little to offer compared to other titles. in fact if you take away the ip, would any of you guys even play it?

Edited by travelbug, 16 September 2013 - 04:31 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Ymirok, on 15 September 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

At least you aren't rude or replying with unoriginal, childish remarks. I know it isn't P2W but the fact that I can't use any mech or loadout right away is saddening and very off-putting.

Ok, now I get what you are most complaining about.

You get an extra Cbill bonus for your first 25 matches. It should be enough to let you buy a Heavy mech. Maybe an Assault if you made enough normal cbills with it. There is also a button to get a free day of premium time on the page where you downloaded the game. Go to the download now web page and look in the bottom left.

It's been said that eventually, trial mechs will go away and new players will have a series of tutorials to complete which will enable them to buy a mech right off the bat. No idea how far off that is though. Probably months. It's dependent upon UI 2.0.

As for loosing every match...
I remember those days. It was frustrating. Actually, last night I was playing and ran into the most unbalanced matches I have seen in a long time. Try playing during a different time of day if you can and see how it goes. In either case, your ELO score will lower and you should start winning against more equal opponents soon. Though, ELO is different for each weight class so I suppose you'd want to stick to the same weight class for it to drop faster. Before ELO, my win/loss ratio was about .35 or .4. Now it is about .5. I expected to loose those matches so I just played to see how many kills and assists I could get or if I could contribute to the team.

If you can tough it out for the first couple dozen matchs, then things get a lot better.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that once you click the Free Premium button, you have to activate it in-game. On the bottom is a blue activate button, so pick a time when you will most benefit from it.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 16 September 2013 - 05:26 AM.

[Enigmos]

Business model. Yes, sounds impressive. Knowing. What I fail to understand is why people who obsessively protest any failing they think they see in PGI's business model while continue to play a game they so intensely dislike. It is either imbecilic or dishonest.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 16 September 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Mechteric]

Really the only somewhat valid point he has made is that Hero mechs should be available for CBills also... while I wouldn't disagree with that entirely, except the only way that should ever happen is if when you buy with CBills you don't get the 30% CBill boost that you get from purchasing with MC.

Also mech bays should probably also be purchasable with CBills. Say 5 million or so.

And trial mechs are bad. Hopefully UI2.0 completely changes this concept to rentals instead.

[Lostdragon]

If I didn't love MW so much I would not have played this game past the first 10 matches. Let's just call a spade a spade here: the new player experience in MWO is terrible. I have tried to introduce several friends to the game and none of them wanted to play through the cadet bonus because that part of the game is really just unnecessarily painful.

Fortunately, PGI has acknowledged this and is working to improve it. They added the tutorial and hopefully will continue to expand it. They also acknowledged a while back that trial mechs suck and stated that with UI 2.0 they are looking to have a new system and will be able to gift a mech to nee players, which they are not able to do with the current setup. I had really hoped UI 2.0 and the new player changes would be in for launch, I feel that launching without them is probably going to hurt the game.

I also feel that only 4 mech bays is a really low number in light of the fact that you meed three variants to master mech. I think giving 6 or 8 bays would encourage people to stick around and play more.

[EyeDie I]

a person who has read the forums before ranting would know the free premium day at download would stack with their cadet bonus and earned even more cbills.im sure this will be in ktown in 2 or 3 hours.