73 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Make the mechs tougher with hitboxes that overlap a little and get rid of ghost heat and weird nerfs that just cover for how weak MWO mechs are to damage.

[Hythos]

"Boating" is a part of Battletech. It's been around since the beginning, and all the way through "Dark Age" (POS).

A simple example of a unit SPECIFICALLY designed for brawling with 16xMG's among other weapons:
http://www.sarna.net...aut_(BattleMech)

"Oh, that one doesn't count, it's an S-7 'Mech."

Yep, MG's don't generate heat. What about the Black Hawk-Prime? 12xERML?http://www.sarna.net...ova_(Black_Hawk)
"That one doesn't count in MWO either, 'cause we're never getting Clans".
Touche!

How about ... the Awesome? I've argued this point several times before. If nothing more than the Awesome, it should be at the very LEAST the Awesome, to be allowed to fire the 3xPPC (or 3xLL) without the "Fictitious Heat".. er, sorry, Ghost Heat penalty.


The "Ghost Heat Penalty" was most likely introduced because those hard-sought-after-dumb-FPS players wouldn't understand the Battletech heat-scale penalties.

GG PGI. Guess I'll go play MWTactics again like you're wanting me to.

[Cart]

I voted for removing the gohst-heat, BUT not without an alternative...

To bring some suggestion:
In the tabletop, there is a "heat-scale".
http://twobt.de/uplo...edia/MTBMRS.pdf
If you get to hot, you get real problems!
See "50" as 100%
-The hotter you get, there is an increasing chance to shut down, even if you are not over (or close to) 100%.
-The hotter you get, the harder the aiming gets. (could be mad by a blurring or shaking view f. e.)
-The hotter you get, the slower your Mech gets.
-The hotter you get, the higher is the Chance to get an ammo-explosion.
And so on...

I don't think it's necessary(or makes sense), to implement all of these things, but a few of this would make PPC-boating a hard thing to do...

[Voivode]

Hythos, on 18 September 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

"Boating" is a part of Battletech. It's been around since the beginning, and all the way through "Dark Age" (POS).

Yes. Totally true, but there are two problems with this.

1) In BT your hits are determined through dice rolls. In MWO you can aim. Single point damage weapons become exponentially more powerful when you no longer have that element of randomness. Something needed to be done in order to account for that. Is ghost heat awesome? No. But it is relatively straight forward and predictable compared to other possible systems.

Implementing the heat scale penalties that are in BT would be a bit of a nightmare for players and developers alike. That sort of scale is great for the tabletop, turn based game since it only expounds upon a system already based on random chance. Adding the BT heat scale penalty would be like adding the UAC5 jam mechanic to every weapon once you hit a heat threshold.

2) You can still boat weapons, you just can't fire them all at once. The concept of an alpha strike is foreign to BT because it is based on ten second rounds. MWO is real time,

So when you take this formula:

Pinpoint Damage - Random Hits + Real Time combat

You reveal a pretty big problem that ghost heat addresses: boat all you like, you will need to use those weapons in a way more like a ten second round rather than instant damage.

[MaddMaxx]

Dracol, on 18 September 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Keep it. Seen more variety of weapons on a mech instead of all the same since its inception. For the sake of those who do not visit the forums, there better be info on it in UI2.0

I would not at all surprised to see mention of it in a Tutorial. Maybe one about Weapons and Grouping, etc etc.

[MaddMaxx]

Lightfoot, on 18 September 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Make the mechs tougher with hitboxes that overlap a little and get rid of ghost heat and weird nerfs that just cover for how weak MWO mechs are to damage.

If only "Reflective" and "Reactive (experimental - hint hint)" Armor types weren't so far out on the Timeline...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 19 September 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[DocBach]

Until they have an alternative to limit the amount of damage people can throw every shot into single panels, I'm for keeping the ghost heat. It's clunky and un-intuitive, sure -- but it's more fun than seeing the same weapons boats stripping 'Mechs in single salvos every match.

Edited by DocBach, 19 September 2013 - 05:44 AM.

[NextGame]

I despise ghost heat on the basis that it's completely and utterly arbitrary and is not explained in the game in any way, nor is it explained in a legible/reasonably understandable way on the original explanation thread on this topic. It wrecks mechs that are designed to boat, and gives confusing results for anyone who doesn't want to dig into some obscure thread on an equally obscure forum area.

It needs to go, and therefore I voted to remove it. But what's the point? The developers clearly don't give a {Scrap} what the community thinks, for which there is plenty of evidence over the past few months.

Edited by NextGame, 19 September 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Mechteric]

I tend to agree, ghost heat I saw merely as a bandaid for the time. I think its time to take off the bandaid because the wounds are healed

[Nasty McBadman]

I think the big problem is in the definition of "boat". I have no problem with ghost heat in my awesome 9M with 4 ER LL because I do not fire them all at once. Sure that much is designed to be an energy boat but even in the lore "watch your heat" was paramount. I think it is "alpha boat" that is the problem. I think ghost heat is a perfect reward/penalty system for constant alpha strike.

[Hythos]

Random Chance is not bad for an on-line game.

Pin-point accuracy willl never go away, because PGI needs FPS players, who are not capable of understanding that their shot didn't go EXACTLY where they fired it. Surprising that any AAA-FPS would have a cone-of-fire; seems complex for their ~70IQ's

Though, they (FPS players) are needed to be encouraged to stay so that the spend money here (apparently, according to PGI), so a simple non-authentic Battletech experience is needed.
Don't forget, their target market is the same generation that Dark Age was to target... Simple, fast, and easy - no need to know much about anything beyond what you can hold in your hand. Look at the MWO Game Info on 'Mech data to prove it: "Firepower"; the stats have always read like an EXTREMELY COMPLICATED FPS (complicated, in that has more 'stats' to consider than Castle Wolfenstein).


** Edit: On a related note-

SARAH MECH PROCEEDS COLLECTED: (And I say this sincerely -> congratulations!)

$122,290

vs

Grand Theft Auto V generates $800million on opening day.

I know it's not a 1:1 comparison on game-elements, but my point is that those wanting to play FPS games are MANY times more likely (I'll even conduct a study to go so far as to prove it if I must) to play a game like Grand Theft Auto, than MWO.

Trying to attract that audience is not good for MWO, and it won't generate revenue. It's not the kind of game they want.

Edited by Hythos, 19 September 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[Voivode]

I don't know. Think about the previous MW titles. This one may not be 100% true to BT but it is a hell of a lot closer than the previous titles. Given the differences between real time and turn based games, I don't think it's possible for a straight port from tabletop to computer screen outside of the strategy command and control type games.

All in all this game isn't bad. Needs more content for sure, but it's a solid base for them to build on. At least, I've been enjoying it.

[MustrumRidcully]

I'd prefer it would go.

I think a "real" heat penalty system would work well, too. The biggest advantage boats have is convergence, and that the heat threshold is so high you can alpha several times without consequences.

A mixed weapon loadout has to chain-fire in some manner ,and thus its heat will generally never spike as high as that of boats. So if you use a lower heat threshold or a heat threshold with a scale of heat penalties, you would give people that spike high a drawback, while those that chain-fire will use the dissipation between shots to keep out of the nastier penalties.

Some system ideas here: http://mwomercs.com/...em-suggestions/

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 19 September 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[Lord Perversor]

MW:O allows Boating as much as any player wish.

Nothing absolutely nothing stop you to play a 6x PPC or LL stalker and be deadly with it.

Ghost Heat *Punish* Massive alpha strikes by boats, ppl love to whine and complain about TT allowing boats , but in TT your mech had 10 seconds to fire and reload.

As far i'm concerned Ghost heat bring a reliable punishment to Free Alphas, but it should be explained to new players.

Something in the lines of:
The battlemech heat sinks have a limited disipation rate, firing at once several weapons of the same time can produce an excess heat way higher than if fired independently!!

Then just provide the maximum weapons of a type before penalty kicks in, on the mechlab weapon description. And let the right numbers in the forums for the mathwarriors.

[Enigmos]

I didn't choose one way or the other: whatever they do the weapons platforms need to stabilize and stop going through these wild changes. We have been through so many changes it is getting ridiculous. Every time I turn around the community is demanding a change: please stop bumping the developers' elbow with your idiotic preferences.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 19 September 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[Hythos]

Lord Perversor, on 19 September 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

MW:O allows Boating as much as any player wish.

Nothing absolutely nothing stop you to play a 6x PPC or LL stalker and be deadly with it.

Though, 6xPPC's still = 60heat in Battletech, regardless of the duration they're fired within.

Lord Perversor, on 19 September 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Ghost Heat *Punish* Massive alpha strikes by boats, ppl love to whine and complain about TT allowing boats , but in TT your mech had 10 seconds to fire and reload.

As far i'm concerned Ghost heat bring a reliable punishment to Free Alphas, but it should be explained to new players.

The "punishment" is with the high heat associated with the respective weapons. A better solution would be to create a more uniform, linear heat restriction. "But that would punish everyone". Yes, it does. Just like having 20 (or 10x2) heat-sinks that dissipate 20 heat.

Lord Perversor, on 19 September 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Something in the lines of:
The battlemech heat sinks have a limited disipation rate, firing at once several weapons of the same time can produce an excess heat way higher than if fired independently!!

Thermal transfer was fixed on many Production 'Mechs - and was absolutely working correctly on the Awesome (canonically-speaking); yet, PGI attempted to tell a story that absolutely contradicts Battletech Canon.
Were they to outright place a limit on the number of identical/similar weapons that could be fit in the same weapon-circuit, it would be FAR more acceptable than what they've given us. Just as it would have been more acceptable if they said "We feel the Gauss Rifle should have a charge-up delay" instead of making up a story in order to justify calling it a Sniper weapon. Will they call a Heavy Gauss Rifle a sniper-weapon and have a charge-up time too?

Lord Perversor, on 19 September 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Then just provide the maximum weapons of a type before penalty kicks in, on the mechlab weapon description. And let the right numbers in the forums for the mathwarriors.

Only, in Battletech, someone could have 12x ER Medium LASERS OR 4xERPPC's on a "stock" PRIME variant, and fire them all for a flat 60 heat. The consequences were known (reference: Penalty / punishment), as it would absolutely over-heat, and depending on the heat-sink capacity, most certainly shut down as a result.
While this IS within a 10-second "turn", a well heat-balanced design could continue indefinitely. As an example, I don't believe if having 15x2HS and firing weapons = 3 heat-per-second over a 10 second period will be heat-neutral.

What I'm disappointed with, and disagree with, is their method of calling for "balance because Table-top says so" when they continue to do so inaccurately - INSTEAD OF SAYING - "we feel that..." which would be acceptable (but only barely).

[MaddMaxx]

Hythos, on 19 September 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Though, 6xPPC's still = 60heat in Battletech, regardless of the duration they're fired within.

snip

Quote

a well heat-balanced design could can continue indefinitely.

snip

Would you be surprised to hear that in MWO "A well heat-balanced design can continue indefinitely too."

If not, perhaps you should really try it some time. I mean, build a "well heat-balanced design" They really do work.

[Tvae]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

The way to fix ghost heat is by removing it from every weapon except PPCs. It's so simple, it still blows my mind that they haven't done it yet. Yes, there will need to be a few tweaks to other weapons, but the amount that this small change would fix?

Seriously, everyone. Next time someone talks to you about ghost heat, remember this suggestion. Ghost heat was designed to combat PPCs, and it does that fantastically. But, all the other weapon systems of the game should not be suffering because that one weapon needed a fix. Yes, it drastically needed a fix, and I feel that this was a creative way to do it. But no other weapons were enough of an issue that this change makes sense for them.

Specific cases:
AC/20 - Increase cooldown slightly. It is the hard-hitter, so it should not be hitting often. It could generate a fair amount of heat too, but not because two of them are firing at once. That's just silly. (It could also possibly have recoil if it's in the arms, and you really want it to have a unique mechanic. Just as long as it's fairly predictable, aka, not random.)

Large Lasers - Only really an issue with the 6/LL Stalker, really. But, you're already introduced a mechanic to prevent pinpoint laser damage - duration! Increase the beam duration slightly, and the 6/LL Stalker goes from slightly too strong, to a completely viable build that works great as a heavy-buster, but damn hard to use against lights. A small (base) heat nerf, if it's still too strong, could work as well.

AC/2s - What? No. Go away.

LRMs - These have been an issue in the past, but they're always on/off a problem. They already have their own built-in counters, though - AMS, ECM, and just cover in general. Buff the counters if they're an issue.

SRMs - These all tend to be fast-firing, short range weapons. AKA, exactly the sort of weapon where ghost heat makes absolutely no sense. If you want them running hot, make them hot - don't make boating them the issue.

Gauss Rifles - They just got their own balancing mechanic in the charge mechanic. Plus, they're a completely heatless weapon in any other circumstance. This one is just silly.

Medium Lasers - Is anyone really complaining about these? I didn't realize the lunchback was such an issue. Oh well, this is an easy fix - increase the beam duration, same as LLs.

Other ACs - Increase cooldown as needed. ACs could have longer cooldowns as their unique mechanic - yes, they pack a punch, but you're vulnerable while they're on cooldown. Obviously, this applies more to the heavier ones. (Or very slight, predictable recoil.)

Any other weapons I forgot which have ghost heat on them? Probably, but I've typed this out multiple times before, I'm done for now.

[FupDup]

Tvae, on 19 September 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

The way to fix ghost heat is by removing it from every weapon except PPCs. It's so simple, it still blows my mind that they haven't done it yet. Yes, there will need to be a few tweaks to other weapons, but the amount that this small change would fix?

Seriously, everyone. Next time someone talks to you about ghost heat, remember this suggestion. Ghost heat was designed to combat PPCs, and it does that fantastically. But, all the other weapon systems of the game should not be suffering because that one weapon needed a fix. Yes, it drastically needed a fix, and I feel that this was a creative way to do it. But no other weapons were enough of an issue that this change makes sense for them.

To comment on this one part of your post (the rest is completely spot on), the direct nerfs to the PPCs (heat increase, projectile speed decrease) have also removed the issue of PPC boats being too all-rounded. We no longer need an external, artificial way to nerf PPC boats when the individual weapon got nerfed quite strongly and gave it significant drawbacks (whereas before it was very low risk).

[Ahja]

Ghost Heat is the most bumbling inept attempt to fix something that did not need to be fixed and worked fine for 30 years. Stop listening to one of two forum winners and listen to all if you are going to listen at all.