125 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 February 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

I agree but there has to be something a warrior can do that equals the greatness of a duel with the member of a not named clan. I never said the trial has to be easy, as a matter of fact it should be so tough that success is low. "...... earned the right", gotta look at that line, what would constitute a warrior to earn such a privilege, besides killing traitors(well there not traitors but ill call them that anyways, cant think of a better word)

IS there a clan council at the moment? i think this question was asked not to long ago, if not it should be up to the Ilkhan to determine the difficulty and if not then the clan khans.

There is always a Clan Council, what varies is how many sit upon it. The Il Khan does not rule like a king, he is more of a General of generals. He has wide powers but not absolute rule. Even Nicholas had to gain the councils sanction for the annihilation of Clan Wolverine (which was not as close a vote as some would think if you link together the alliances)

Wolverine was tight with Mongoose and Widowmaker who all had reasons to hate Nicholas or his vision, Burrock and Blood Spirit were pretty much inward looking and by culture were probably unreceptive to Nicholas's growing control, thats 10 right there. Snow Ravens would have been against Wolverine no matter what but Sea Fox hated Snow Ravens, so they probably supported Wolverine. If McEvedy swung a couple more "isolationist" type Clans like Cloud Cobra or Nova Cat its getting near even.

No wonder Nicholas wanted to make an example of them

But Mcevedy got goaded into insulting the clans and that killed off several of the Khan alliances and started the terminal slope to oblivion.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Craig Steele, on 16 February 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

There is always a Clan Council, what varies is how many sit upon it. The Il Khan does not rule like a king, he is more of a General of generals. He has wide powers but not absolute rule. Even Nicholas had to gain the councils sanction for the annihilation of Clan Wolverine (which was not as close a vote as some would think if you link together the alliances)

Wolverine was tight with Mongoose and Widowmaker who all had reasons to hate Nicholas or his vision, Burrock and Blood Spirit were pretty much inward looking and by culture were probably unreceptive to Nicholas's growing control, thats 10 right there. Snow Ravens would have been against Wolverine no matter what but Sea Fox hated Snow Ravens, so they probably supported Wolverine. If McEvedy swung a couple more "isolationist" type Clans like Cloud Cobra or Nova Cat its getting near even.

No wonder Nicholas wanted to make an example of them

But Mcevedy got goaded into insulting the clans and that killed off several of the Khan alliances and started the terminal slope to oblivion.

Trial of blood rite is the only option as i see it. Certain conditions dont exist as we are not in the battle tech universe;however i see no reason to deny this claim.

[Craig Steele]

Craig Steele, on 16 February 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

There is always a Clan Council, what varies is how many sit upon it. The Il Khan does not rule like a king, he is more of a General of generals. He has wide powers but not absolute rule. Even Nicholas had to gain the councils sanction for the annihilation of Clan Wolverine (which was not as close a vote as some would think if you link together the alliances)

Wolverine was tight with Mongoose and Widowmaker who all had reasons to hate Nicholas or his vision, Burrock and Blood Spirit were pretty much inward looking and by culture were probably unreceptive to Nicholas's growing control, thats 10 right there. Snow Ravens would have been against Wolverine no matter what but Sea Fox hated Snow Ravens, so they probably supported Wolverine. If McEvedy swung a couple more "isolationist" type Clans like Cloud Cobra or Nova Cat its getting near even.

No wonder Nicholas wanted to make an example of them

But Mcevedy got goaded into insulting the clans and that killed off several of the Khan alliances and started the terminal slope to oblivion.

Just thinking about this, everywhere I wrote 'Clan Council' it should read 'Grand Council'. A Clan Council runs a Clan and has not say in Bloodname politics, the Grand Council is the gathering of Khans and adjudicates on all interclan matters (such as Bloodnames)

[Jaroth Corbett]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 February 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

only those with a blood name may become khan,ilkhan or sit on a grand council, i never heard of anything allowing a khan to grant a blood name.

The khan cannot interfere with clan laws and a blood name must be earned in a trial of blood rite. If there is an expection i would like to hear because i am not aware of any

As I mentioned before, a new Bloodname can be created by any Khan as a reward:



as well as the Not-Named reward of Bloodright whereby any warrior can create his or her own Bloodname & Bloodhouse:

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 February 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

As I mentioned before, a new Bloodname can be created by any Khan as a reward:

What source is this?

[Jaroth Corbett]

A Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans Pg.63

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 February 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

A Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans Pg.63

Hmmm, Interesting. Only for freebirths though which does away with my question regarding "which" name to pick.

Thanks

[Jaroth Corbett]

Not necessarily. It just says this is one of the ways a freebirth may get a Bloodname but it does not limit it to freebirths. If that were the case the Not-Named reward would be only for freebirths. Trueborns would already be in line for a specific Bloodname, so why let them make their own? You have to read what was written & also interpret what was not written.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Yes, thats exactly the question I posed above about Trueborns.

Its an interesting one as "Wolf" is not a Clan Wolf bloodname, although by this definition it certainly should be.

It fits more the definition of a Dragoon Honour name but the language is very specific above.

What I mean by that is that within the Clan Wolf and Wolf in Exile toumans there is no "Wolf" Warriors. The Bloodname Wolf is not represented in Clan Council. Now bear in mind that Bloodname politics supercede all others so by that right alone Jamie Wolf should have a say in the Clan Council.

If it is a true Bloodname, why is Wolf not represented in the Clan sibko's since 3000 or so? Just by the genetic program alone with introducing new material to prevent stagnation the genetic material 'should' have been used but there is no warrior in Clan toumans with the Bloodname. There are not 25 Wolf's in the Dragoons so their not there either. Where are they?

When the Bloodnames were ordered to return to Clan Space Jamie did not go.

So we have a Wolf Bloodname with no Bloodhouse, no representation in the Clan Council, and a handful members.

If it was reaved because of the Dragoons 'treachery' there'd be no members, the Clans would have hunted them down and challenged them until exterminated. And that just didn't happen in Lore.

Sarna (which I would never quote as canon but is pretty useful) specifically details "Wolf" as an honour name.

It's a very interesting example they use in the source, raises more questons than it answers imo

[Jaroth Corbett]

Wolf was OFFERED as a Bloodname upon the successful completion of the Dragoons' mission. Since they defected to the IS, Wolf was never made a Bloodname. Wolf is an honor name among the Dragoons & like a Bloodname warriors with certain lineages can fight for an honor name.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2014 - 05:49 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 February 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Wolf was OFFERED as a Bloodname upon the successful completion of the Dragoons' mission. Since they defected to the IS, Wolf was never made a Bloodname. Wolf is an honor name among the Dragoons & like a Bloodname warriors with certain lineages can fight for an honor name.

Ummm, it specifically says in the example above "the bloodnaming of", thats past tense. So its been done according to that language (and hence why I assume they use it as an example?).

Honour names only became a Dragoon thing much much later, after Chaos March time line and the new sibko's were starting to come on line. They never had any reason to deviate from Clan culture on that subject until then so it wasn't an honour name when he left.

PS, you don't need a genetic link for an honour name, you can just nominate yourself or be nominated.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Sigh. They were named Wolf for the mission but it was not OFFICIAL. I will find the book that states it. Jeez man.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 February 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Sigh. They were named Wolf for the mission but it was not OFFICIAL. I will find the book that states it. Jeez man.

Ease up tiger??

You put the post up and it supported your argument, I expressed I was accepting of your point but it creates questions also.

I also find it interesting that as Clans are run by a Council, the Khan can authorise such a significant political and powerful cultural act off his own bat.

Think about the extreme scenario. A Khan creates 3 or 4 Bloodnames from some extremely capable Freebirths to create a voting bloc in the Clan Council to enforce his view of the Clan's direction / affairs. We are now talking about Council moving into dictator type structure. His voting Bloc votes with him initially and then empowers him with emergency powers.

Want a real life example, Germany 1933. Legitimate democracy subverted to totalitarian rule from within. Want a Canon example, House Marik, Captain-General.

Clan Blood Spirit now makes no sense at all. The Khan of the day could authorise new bloodnames for his 'house' and crush the voting power of his Clan houses.

Do you see what I am saying here, the Khan can create them and show up at a council meeting and its done. His own trueborns / Bloodnames can defend any trial of refusal in the Clan so he's not taking a risk on the freebirths skill, he just needs them to vote. Overnight in theory, he could be a dictator within his Clan.

And seeing as interfering in another Clans politics is forbidden, no one can stop the Khan internally or externally.

I find it difficult to envisage Nicholas allowing his subordinate Khans more potential authority than he had as Il Khan, from what we know about Nicholas that doesn't sound right at all.

That single excerpt from the source has just turned my understanding of Clan politics on its head.

But it is in Canon, so there you go.

[Jaroth Corbett]

OK a freebirth who is made a warrior of a specific Clan & has earned a level of respect is given the Clan name as a surname. Phelan Ward/Kell was called Phelan Wolf at one point.

Quote

Ulric peered into the room's shadowy depths. "I, Ulric Kerensky, Khan of the Wolves and Oathmaster of this Conclave, do welcome you, Phelan Patrick Kell, to the Clan of the Wolves. According to custom handed down since Aleksandr Kerensky led our forefathers from this place and his son Nicholas saved us from ourselves, you will be known to the Children of Kerensky as Phelan Wolf. All are to abide by the rede given here. Thus shall it stand until we all shall fall."

"Thus shall it stand until we all shall fall," echoed the crowd. The lights illuminating Phelan's challengers
and defenders died, leaving visible only Ulric, Ranna, and Phelan.

No one spoke, and Phelan interpreted the only sounds he heard as the passage of the assembled
Clanspeople from the room.

When complete silence again reigned in the chamber, Ulric stepped forward and offered Phelan his left hand. "You are one of us now, Phelan Wolf. You are a bondsman no more. Through this Conclave, you have become a warrior. You are henceforth accorded all the rights and privileges of your station, as well as all the responsibilities and duty of a Wolf warrior."

It is not a Bloodname & has never been. There were offered the reward of having it made one should they successfully complete their mission.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2014 - 06:30 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 February 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

OK a freebirth who is made a warrior of a specific Clan & has earned a level of respect is given the Clan name as a surname. Phelan Ward/Kell was called Phelan Wolf at one point.









It is not a Bloodname & has never been. There were offered the reward of having it made one should they successfully complete their mission.

OK, so just to be clear. I am accepting of your point OK. You have the canon and been kind enough to share it. I'm not doubting you.

So Mechwarrior "Horse" is actually Mechwarrior "Horse Jade Falcon" (Aidan Pryde's freebirth henchman) in theory, or is that still the Khan's perogitive?

It still raises a heap of questions about Clan politics though. I cannot imagine how Clan Blood Spirit hasn't become totalitarian before now. And they're not the only ones. Almost every Clan has recorded Khans desiring to enforce a position the Clan didn't support at some stage (internal feuds) and here is one easy to enact trigger for Khan to force his view through.

But in 300+ years, not one Khan has, I wonder why? What's stopped them?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Neg, he is just Horse since he has always been a part of Clan Jade Falcon. It is his original Clan. Were he captured by another Clan & made abtakha then he would be Horse (name of Clan that captured him)

Also as far as power goes regarding a Khan having more than the Founder himself, a Khan has the power to take part of a Clan & form a new Clan.

As mentioned it would be as a reward for something. Doing one too many thing against the Clan's interest will have him fighting Trials of Refusal all the time until eventually someone would kill him/her.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2014 - 07:06 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 February 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Neg, he is just Horse since he has always been a part of Clan Jade Falcon. It is his original Clan. Were he captured by another Clan & made abtakha then he would be Horse (name of Clan that captured him)

Also as far as power goes regarding a Khan having more than the Founder himself, a Khan has the power to take part of a Clan & form a new Clan.

As mentioned it would be as a reward for something. Doing one too many thing against the Clan's interest will have him fighting Trials of Refusal all the time until eventually someone would kill him/her.

But a Khan has the authority to forbid Trials too. Just to explore this, lets take Fire Mandrill (only cause they're about as in feuding as it gets)

Khan Sainze and sa Kahn Payne had a feud going since operation Klondike (landing ground rights). By the time Widowmaker gets absorbed by Wolf the Kindraa's have formed.

Their history specifies that at this time the Faraday Kindraa consolidates to form a powerful voting bloc and alliances are formed ...... etc etc.

If Sainze was already toe to toe with Payne, and another competitor starts to rise in the Clan Council, why the heck doesn't he use the authority that Nicholas has already consented to and create more 'loyal' votes for himself in the Clan Council to crush the Faraday alliance. His military is already strong enough to hold off challenges vis a vis Sainze is still Khan even fighting against Payne.

Internally the Clan was already at each others throat and neither the Il Khan nor the other Clans had any authority to interfere.

Here's a canon example where that Bloodname granting by the Khan without Council sanction would have certainly been tempting to use, had to have been.

The question now is, why wasn't it?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Not a challenge to his/her leadership since it is for the good of the Clan.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 February 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Not a challenge to his/her leadership since it is for the good of the Clan.

Well if he already has the votes in the council he can invoke Satarra and invalidate any trial.

I'm not saying this would occur in practice, far to many variables to say decisively. But I find it very un clanlike that the mechanism would even exist. Nicholas went to a lot of trouble to create the clans in a way that stymied any type of inner sphere "diplomacy" being a determining factor.

Sure diplomacy is a factor in life, Nicholas knew it had a place and didn't try to stamp it out. But the councils always had the power to overturn.

Now it seems that overnight an ambitious Khan could invalidate a clan council simply by stacking it with his 'people'.

It's an interesting example they have used, very interesting indeed.

[Baron Cunedda Kell]

Making a Stark a bloodname would be amusing.