183 replies to this topic

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Kunae, on 21 September 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

... so never, you're saying.

[Kunae]

Earl White, on 21 September 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Improve hit detection/damage recognition, problem solved.

While that is what is necessary, once they have that nailed down light will be even more vulnerable than they are now. I hope they are cognizant of that and buff lights appropriately when hit-det is finally fixed.

[Zerberus]

DI3T3R, on 20 September 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

You sure? A Mech is about 10m high, now compare that to the mental image you have of a Spider running around. Make it 20m.

There are reasons, why no walking creature or machine can get that fast: They will eventually loose grip in a curve and start skidding.

If they want to offer a Mech-simulator, they better take the size of the Mechs into account.

If you want realistic physics, an atlas would sink into the gound the first time it steps on something other than concrete or a mountainside due to it`s spall footprint relative to it`s immense mass..

Edited by Zerberus, 21 September 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[Wolfways]

Kunae, on 21 September 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

That's not what this thread is about. And 99% of the time what you're talking about has to do with broken spiders, even though people try to conflate Jenners into it, spitefully.

This particular thread is about how the OP can't shoot, and wants all lights nerfed down to the point where he can maybe hit them.

Ah {Scrap}, i went from reading one thread into another and posted without thinking. Thanks fo pointing it out Kunae. PEEFsmash i sincerely apologize
There are so many "nerf lights" threads keep popping up it's hard to keep up.

Mehlan, on 21 September 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

What 'loads of threads'? There's a scattered few, and in those a few consistent pilots (like yourself) who are dedicated to trying to get 'lights' nerfed because:
1> They cant adapt
2> They want to ignore that it's seems to be combination of factors that are not primarily mech related.

Several times those 'few' have been asked for information to ping times, and jitter etc...which has been ignored.

I'm trying to get lights nerfed? That's news to me.

Earl White, on 21 September 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Improve hit detection/damage recognition, problem solved.

That's the only problem i see with lights.

Zerberus, on 21 September 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

If you want realistic physics, an atlas would sink into the gound the first time it steps on something other than concrete or a mountainside due to it`s spall footprint relative to it`s immense mass..

Actually, in the TT game there were rules for mechs moving fast while turning. If i remember correctly there was a chance they'd slide sideways and maybe fall over.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 21 September 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

I doubt any player who calls himself a "top-level" player would admit it, and if you bother to read you'll see that in the loads of threads about lights the majority of them have nothing to do with aim. It is about lights absorbing a ridiculous amount of damage.

Wrong, he said he cannot line up the little circle in the massive box long enough to get SSRMs to hit, if he cannot do that then the rest of his hits surely are not hitting, they absorb nothing as they do not get hit by anything...

Also I have no idea what you meant about top level players admitting things, did you mean no top level player would admit they are top level or would admit that lights are not overpowered? Because plenty have big egos and the majority of top level players do not play lights much and complain they die too fast and cannot kill quickly enough to carry games like you can in an assault or a heavy.

Now I agree Spiders at times do seem to take more hits then one would expect some times to kill, although 90% of the time in my experience they do not.
Lets look at this another way, I have been on ts before and managed to get myself oneshot by standing still infront of 3+ people and just really hoping they do not decide I am the target the want, meaning I get to observe. Now a number of times I have seen some of the random people I have grouped with complain massively that their damage is not registering on the light mechs, so I go and watch what they are doing. You would not believe the amount of times people say they get "full laser duration held on the light mech with them flashing and taking no damage"...yet what I am watching is them briefly graze their lasers across said light mech most of the time clearly hitting nothing but ground. Even if the movements were slightly ahead/behind because of hsr still it would be nothing more then minimum amount of damage spread all across the mech. Now whilst I am observing this happening, people grazing Jenners over and over again without really hitting, they complain about how their lasers are totally broken and none of their hits are registering and lights are broken beyond belief as they take literally no damage.

Now I am not saying hit detection is perfect, but also human accuracy, perception and memory is also not perfect, sometimes a combination of the 2 make it seem like the problem is worse then it really is.

In this case however it has nothing to do with hit detection on spiders. The OP is claiming lights need to be nerfed because they are too strong with their speed and turning for people to hit. I disagree and I think the main evidence to support that is the fact that he cannot hit a 10m robot with a homing missile, which the majority of people are able to do.

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 21 September 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Wrong, he said he cannot line up the little circle in the massive box long enough to get SSRMs to hit, if he cannot do that then the rest of his hits surely are not hitting, they absorb nothing as they do not get hit by anything...

Yeah Kunae pointed that out to me.

Quote

Also I have no idea what you meant about top level players admitting things, did you mean no top level player would admit they are top level or would admit that lights are not overpowered? Because plenty have big egos and the majority of top level players do not play lights much and complain they die too fast and cannot kill quickly enough to carry games like you can in an assault or a heavy.

I meant no top-level player would admit that lights were OP. It was meant as a joke but i can see how the rest of my post kind of ruined that. I just get annoyed when so many players post on threads about hit detection/damage claiming that the other players can't aim.

Quote

Now I agree Spiders at times do seem to take more hits then one would expect some times to kill, although 90% of the time in my experience they do not.
Lets look at this another way, I have been on ts before and managed to get myself oneshot by standing still infront of 3+ people and just really hoping they do not decide I am the target the want, meaning I get to observe. Now a number of times I have seen some of the random people I have grouped with complain massively that their damage is not registering on the light mechs, so I go and watch what they are doing. You would not believe the amount of times people say they get "full laser duration held on the light mech with them flashing and taking no damage"...yet what I am watching is them briefly graze their lasers across said light mech most of the time clearly hitting nothing but ground. Even if the movements were slightly ahead/behind because of hsr still it would be nothing more then minimum amount of damage spread all across the mech. Now whilst I am observing this happening, people grazing Jenners over and over again without really hitting, they complain about how their lasers are totally broken and none of their hits are registering and lights are broken beyond belief as they take literally no damage.

Now I am not saying hit detection is perfect, but also human accuracy, perception and memory is also not perfect, sometimes a combination of the 2 make it seem like the problem is worse then it really is.

In this case however it has nothing to do with hit detection on spiders. The OP is claiming lights need to be nerfed because they are too strong with their speed and turning for people to hit. I disagree and I think the main evidence to support that is the fact that he cannot hit a 10m robot with a homing missile, which the majority of people are able to do.

I have seen hit detection so bad that i've hit a stationary Jenner 6+ times in the ct with gauss at around 100m and only turned his armour yellow, but it is rarely that bad.
I agree that some players probably do just strafe accross a lights legs and wonder why they didn't do much damage, but you have to also remember that when you're spectating you may not be seeing the same thing as the player. Once my wife and i were spectating the same mech, and one of us saw him hitting a mech on target, but the other was way to the left. Also, the players paperdoll was showing different amounts of damage and he even showed different amounts of ammo

Edit: Just thought i'd add, yes i have said that lights should be slowed down, but i've said all mechs should be slowed down. Since the removal of R&R many throw XL's in their mech and the gameplay is faster than it was in CB. It's starting to feel more like Hawken, or Transformers...to me at least.

Edited by Wolfways, 21 September 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 21 September 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

I have seen hit detection so bad that i've hit a stationary Jenner 6+ times in the ct with gauss at around 100m and only turned his armour yellow, but it is rarely that bad.
I agree that some players probably do just strafe accross a lights legs and wonder why they didn't do much damage, but you have to also remember that when you're spectating you may not be seeing the same thing as the player. Once my wife and i were spectating the same mech, and one of us saw him hitting a mech on target, but the other was way to the left. Also, the players paperdoll was showing different amounts of damage and he even showed different amounts of ammo

Edit: Just thought i'd add, yes i have said that lights should be slowed down, but i've said all mechs should be slowed down. Since the removal of R&R many throw XL's in their mech and the gameplay is faster than it was in CB. It's starting to feel more like Hawken, or Transformers...to me at least.

I have seen it in the past be quite bad but I have also seen people getting 1shot by SSRMs in the past...and I did point out that it makes no difference where the mech is actually located on their screen, most of the time there is simply no possible way it would be a full hit.

I used an XL engine for every single game when R&R was in the game and still made huge amounts of money it was hardly a deterrent. On a side note the game does not really feel any faster to me, just more people know what they are doing. Perhaps it is simply the introduction of Elo and you improving as a player therefore the enemy do not last as long. I felt that when xl hunchbacks with full small lasers running all over the place was a pretty fast paced game and my Jenner has been 1shottable from the start and remains that way, just people aim better now and punish harder/faster when the enemy does something silly, average skill level increasing and all that. I guess the introduction of double heat sinks made it so you can afford to fire a higher alpha more often although honestly you can still run around with 6small lasers and put out respectable damage numbers...
Well if you look at the damage numbers I used to see compared to the relatively small and evenly spread numbers I see now it is clear that less arms and legs are blown off unnecessarily and everybody contributes instead of one guy literally blowing 4+components out of every enemy mech and the rest of the team having to wait till he manages to do this, higher numbers which used to be commonplace are now only really seen if somebody literally carries a 12man team on their back alone or if PGI put out some randomly biased endurance/luck based tournament.

Whatever kind of strayed just saying it for the sake of saying it I guess.

[PEEFsmash]

Wolfways, on 21 September 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

I just get annoyed when so many players post on threads about hit detection/damage claiming that the other players can't aim.

Well...sorry bout ya. If you want to bring to bear some sort of evidence that hit detection on lights isn't working, then bring it. Otherwise, you fall into the category that Wispsy described, which is "person who mispercieves their own performance." I have about 1 missed registration per couple days, and they are spread between mechs of all kinds. 99% of my shots register, and that 1% of missed registration is not all lights. Many time my percieved missed registrations turn out to be shots that hit geometry that hadn't loaded yet, or convincing-looking shots between the moving legs of a mech. If you are still experienceing a world where shots consistently misregister on lights (2 patches ago) then provide evidence. Otherwise, you really have nothing to say.

And if you say "where's your evidence then PEEF!..." Head on over to www.twitch.tv/peefsmash. All of the matches I play are on there. You will find 0 missed registrations. One time last night I shot an Atlas from 87 meters with a PPC and called it missed registration, until I realized that I was under minimum range for PPC, something that most players would have never realized, and instead decided to make a forum post about.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 21 September 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

4 guys in TS, in a group watch one from a dead stop alpha a shut down spider (from 100m) with 6 med lasers in the leg and his opposite arm fly off SOMETHING is wrong. When a spider can run through a group of 6 ANY mechs for 5 mins taking hits like a boss to run away SOMETHING is wrong. Until recently I played lights exclusively and will say, something is wrong with spiders.

And it seems to have gotten worse recently for some reason. I understand they are trying to fix them, but man something needs to be done fast. And I would say remove them, but that would just tell everyone they cant figure it out (so not gonna happen).

Personally I see spiders as nothing but a troll mech atm. And yes a whole team will try to kill them, because it usually take a whole team 5 mins to do it.

[nehebkau]

Take a look at this pick and tell me if spiders are indestructible...btw I was running at 151kph at the time and this was the first shot of the game.

[PEEFsmash]

Dozier, on 21 September 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

4 guys in TS, in a group watch one from a dead stop alpha a shut down spider (from 100m) with 6 med lasers in the leg and his opposite arm fly off SOMETHING is wrong. When a spider can run through a group of 6 ANY mechs for 5 mins taking hits like a boss to run away SOMETHING is wrong. Until recently I played lights exclusively and will say, something is wrong with spiders.

And it seems to have gotten worse recently for some reason. I understand they are trying to fix them, but man something needs to be done fast. And I would say remove them, but that would just tell everyone they cant figure it out (so not gonna happen).

Personally I see spiders as nothing but a troll mech atm. And yes a whole team will try to kill them, because it usually take a whole team 5 mins to do it.

You should have prefaced this with "in my extremely low Elo-bracket filled with people who can't aim." There is no spider in the world who could run into 5-6 top players and get out alive. You are self-describing yourselves as bad. If there was missed registration, bring evidence.

[Gaan Cathal]

Dozier, on 21 September 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

4 guys in TS, in a group watch one from a dead stop alpha a shut down spider (from 100m) with 6 med lasers in the leg and his opposite arm fly off SOMETHING is wrong.

In the case of stationary mechs, specifically when they have shut down from overheating, there's known to be an issue with the server correctly reporting their location (i.e. you see them one place, server thinks they're another). To my understanding this is because overheating mechs don't decelerate, they just stop.

This is why you see so many "shot a shut down XYZ" in these "I can't aim" threads, because the slight difference in location can cause a deviation in hit location to either off the mech or, as in your example, to a different location. In larger mechs the same effect can be seen but because the hitbox is larger and the deviation the same it's less impactful.

As for letting a spider run through your entire lance being shot at and surviving...yeah, PEEF has this one right. I'm not top-tier by any means and I just..don't see that. Ever. Run through an entire lance and be ignored because they're focusing down something else, yes. Get shot at and take no damage? No.

[Kunae]

nehebkau, on 21 September 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Take a look at this pick and tell me if spiders are indestructible...btw I was running at 151kph at the time and this was the first shot of the game.

If you'd have taken any time to look into this issue, rather than just reacting with your anecdotal "proof", you'd know it's not every spider, nor even only spiders. It's just most obvious on spiders due to their hitboxes.

The problem is how their broken HSR implementation deals with variable ping-times.

[nehebkau]

Kunae, on 21 September 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

If you'd have taken any time to look into this issue, rather than just reacting with your anecdotal "proof", you'd know it's not every spider, nor even only spiders. It's just most obvious on spiders due to their hitboxes.

The problem is how their broken HSR implementation deals with variable ping-times.

I think the evidence is that:
1: Lights can be hit.
2: Lights record damage and an AC20 can 1-hit a fully armored light.


I am just pointing out what the evidence shows, not what it means. (and this spider has full armor)

Edited by nehebkau, 21 September 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Kunae]

nehebkau, on 21 September 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

I think the evidence is that:
1: Lights can be hit.
2: Lights record damage and an AC20 can 1-hit a fully armored light.


I am just pointing out what the evidence shows, not what it means. (and this spider has full armor)

Do you even bother reading what you're replying to?

Kunae, on 21 September 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

If you'd have taken any time to look into this issue, rather than just reacting with your anecdotal "proof", you'd know it's not every spider, nor even only spiders. It's just most obvious on spiders due to their hitboxes.

The problem is how their broken HSR implementation deals with variable ping-times.

I clearly state that it's not every spider. You "evidence" is anecdotal, and doesn't show anything.

[Gaan Cathal]

Kunae, on 21 September 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

I clearly state that it's not every spider. You "evidence" is anecdotal, and doesn't show anything.

It's also vastly more significant than the evidence presented in this thread that there is a problem. Because there hasn't been any.

[PEEFsmash]

Gaan Cathal, on 21 September 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

It's also vastly more significant than the evidence presented in this thread that there is a problem. Because there hasn't been any.

THIS. The guy provides a tiny bit of evidence, and people complain about the quantity of evidence?! I have YET to see a SINGLE piece of evidence from the other side, just a tiny video of a clean hit on a light not registering damage post-patch. That itself would just be a tiny bit of evidence, but it would at least be something. Why should anyone listen to the COMPLETELY unevidenced opinions of those saying lights are unhittable?!

I should make a thread that says that assaults and heavies are unhittable. No, in fact, assaults and heavies are being HEALED when I shoot them! I hit them with lasers and it's like a healing ray! MUST BALANCE HEAVIES/ASSAULTS my shots are actually healing them! PATCH PATCH NOW EVERYONE THROW UPROAR GO GO NO SKILL HEAVIES/ASSAULTS GETTING HEALED ALL THE TIME WTF GAME SO BROKEN. YOU WANT EVIDENCE? I WAS IN A 4 MAN ONE TIME AND EVERYONE SAW IT, IT JUST LIKE...HAPPENED RIGHT THERE ON SCREEN YA KNOW HOW THINGS DO THAT? WELL WE ALL SAW IT SO YEAH DONT TELL ME ITS NOT REAL

Edited by PEEFsmash, 21 September 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Kunae]

Gaan Cathal, on 21 September 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

It's also vastly more significant than the evidence presented in this thread that there is a problem. Because there hasn't been any.

K,... understand that this part of the thread has diverged from the original topic. The OP is whining that lights should be nerfed because he can't shoot straight.

Then we had a person come in and claim that because *he* dies easily in a spider, that the known HSR and hitbox issues due to variable ping don't exist. That is what you're replying to.

It's an accepted fact that this exists, and I'm not going to rehash the whole thing for your uninquisitive edification. Tons of threads about it, find em and read em.

PEEFsmash, on 21 September 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

THIS. The guy provides a tiny bit of evidence, and people complain about the quantity of evidence?! I have YET to see a SINGLE piece of evidence from the other side, just a tiny video of a clean hit on a light not registering damage post-patch. That itself would just be a tiny bit of evidence, but it would at least be something. Why should anyone listen to the COMPLETELY unevidenced opinions of those saying lights are unhittable?!

I should make a thread that says that assaults and heavies are unhittable. No, in fact, assaults and heavies are being HEALED when I shoot them! I hit them with lasers and it's like a healing ray! MUST BALANCE HEAVIES/ASSAULTS my shots are actually healing them! PATCH PATCH NOW EVERYONE THROW UPROAR GO GO NO SKILL HEAVIES/ASSAULTS GETTING HEALED ALL THE TIME WTF GAME SO BROKEN. YOU WANT EVIDENCE? I WAS IN A 4 MAN ONE TIME AND EVERYONE SAW IT, IT JUST LIKE...HAPPENED RIGHT THERE ON SCREEN YA KNOW HOW THINGS DO THAT? WELL WE ALL SAW IT SO YEAH DONT TELL ME ITS NOT REAL

Now now, PEEF, make sure you're on the right soapbox here. That guy was writing an ignorant response, out of context. Has nothing to do with the OP's topic that he sucks and wants nerfs so he can suck less, which looks like more of what you were replying to.

[Gaan Cathal]

Kunae, on 21 September 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

K,... understand that this part of the thread has diverged from the original topic. The OP is whining that lights should be nerfed because he can't shoot straight.

Then we had a person come in and claim that because *he* dies easily in a spider, that the known HSR and hitbox issues due to variable ping don't exist. That is what you're replying to.

It's an accepted fact that this exists, and I'm not going to rehash the whole thing for your uninquisitive edification. Tons of threads about it, find em and read em.

I've read 'em. Not seen any footage from the last few months (prior to which hit detection was terribad) in any of them. Happy to be proved wrong if the proof is there.

[Sabazial]

Rhaythe, on 20 September 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Lordie...

Has this community really gotten to the point where every minor advantage another class of mech might have - regardless of their inherant disadvantages - is now considered "OP"?

Expect more of this, a LOT more.. now that the dumbing down of the game is bringing in the COD / console players. For the record i'm levelling spiders now and consider myself a pretty decent light pilot making use of terrain / jumpjets to strafe targets and avoid incoming fire, yet other players still have no issues damaging me if i screw up and leave myself open to return fire.

Lights are fine.