183 replies to this topic

[Shae Starfyre]

I do not agree with some of this; I have over 900 games in a Lyr Muromet with a 200 std engine; with efficiencies, that is 50kph, and can you imagine the torso twist?!?

I can bear down on a light, even when they engage me in the open all by my little lonesome.

It is about anticipating their movement characteristics, maintaining fire discipline, and not getting caught up in the circle race (you have to twist, turn the other direction, and mix it up).

Yes, it is difficult, and when spectating others, it looks to me to be their mouse sensativity is too high causing them to eratically try to aim.

Also, I notices that people never lead their shots, it always looks like they are on the trailing end of the light when firing, and at best, especially with lasers, they merely get touches by the weapons.

and Spider hit boxes are not the problem, they are just small slivers in comparison to everything else (aim small).

Net code is prevalent for ALL mechs, it affects everything on the battle field. The only reason that it appears worse with the spider is because of the size of the stupid thing.

I am not sure what the piloting issue is, that most people are not observing the interaction between the lights and their aiming and utilizing proper alignment, before firing.

[Kunae]

@OP.

No. Learn to play rather than ask for nerfs.

They have already slowed mechs down dramatically since the start of OB, just so they could fit their "+10%" speed-tweak under the real cap.

I've done comparisons of vids from CB, and a light doing 142.6(the old cap) and a light doing ~152 now are traveling the same distance over the same time.

As they continue to fix "HSR", hitting lights is going to get easier and easier. It's easy now, with the exception, as mentioned earlier, of some spiders. Just because you have a hard time in no way means that there's anything wrong with the game.

[Khobai]

Actually theres nothing wrong with 20-30 ton mechs going 151kph. Its the 35+ ton mechs going 151kph, like the Jenner, that's unbalanced. The Jenner already has a 10-15 ton advantage, a hardpoint advantage, and a jumpjet advantage over the Commando/Locust, it should not go faster too.

Speedcap should be based on tonnage rather than stock engine size. The more a mech weighs the lower its speedcap should be. Although certain mechs should get higher speed caps as part of their quirks.

For example...
20 tons = 151kph
25 tons = 147 kph
30 tons = 143 kph
35 tons = 139 kph

What that would do is give tiny mechs the ability to outrun any mech they cant outgun, which is exactly how it should be. Thats really the only thing that needs to be fixed with light mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 20 September 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[AllSpark]

What is needed is collision damage. If a fast mech collides with a terrain feature or another mech at ludicrous speed it should take damage. Fast mechs would still be fast but the usage of speed would become highly situational and require piloting skill.

[Kaarde]

TheNef, on 20 September 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

As long as lights running into other mechs can knock them down then I'm all for bringing back knock downs, so a 30 ton mech at 151 kph hitting an atlas should be able to knock it over.

A 20-35 ton mech running into another mech at speed should be destroyed, and cause massive if not fatal damage to the other mech.

Inertia alone would be the killer there.

[Rhaythe]

Quote

ULTRA FAST LIGHTMECHS NEED TO BE BALANCED

Lordie...

Has this community really gotten to the point where every minor advantage another class of mech might have - regardless of their inherant disadvantages - is now considered "OP"?

[CravenMadness]

so... The difference between it being 'ok' for 'light mechs' to go 151 kph, and it not being 'ok' for a light mech to go 151 ... is five tons? What about the cicada that goes 151 in a 40 ton chassis? ... You do realize, bigger weight chassis = more room for larger engine which = more power to move that extra tonnage faster...

Commando/spider are what.. xl 255 engine? piece of ****. Jenner, xl 300 that's four grades higher than the 255 and several million more cbills and easily the extra 'five' tons of jenner weight spent on the engine. Cicadas get the xl 340, that's another four 'grades' higher that eats up the 'extra' tonnage, and even more expensive. They're basically spending their 'extra' tonnage just -so- they can go as fast as a 20-30 tonner. And don't really have any particularly impressive fire-power and only the cicada 3m of those options even has ecm. And cicadas don't even get jets.

And no, frankly, I don't believe that your hundred ton multi-story atlas that you can only see out of one eye in, should be able to reliably track that mech a third of it's weight going three times as fast as it around it's legs. I also don't think that stalker with no torso twist, should be able to keep line of sight on a light circling it and having enough awareness to pitch and turn to keep at the back of the stalker. I also don't think a victor or highlander should be able to out jump-jet-twist maneuver a skilled light pilot (IE you see them launch and twist to try and get that 50+ point alpha oriented on you, you cut in close and dip under their legs.)

Frankly, you need to rely on teammates as the 'counter' to being singled out by lights. Not everything should be 'able' to solo anything else by 'default'.

Edited by CravenMadness, 20 September 2013 - 05:53 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

What is needed is collision damage.

Yeah no. There would be absolutely no reason to pilot a 20 ton mech then. What we actually need is more of a reason to pilot 20 ton mechs and less of a reason to pilot 35 ton mechs. Collision damage is the opposite of what we need.

Quote

so... The difference between it being 'ok' for 'light mechs' to go 151 kph, and it not being 'ok' for a light mech to go 151 ... is five tons?

It has to be. Otherwise theres no reason to use a 20 ton mech if a 30-35 ton mech can go the same max speed.

Quote

You do realize, bigger weight chassis = more room for larger engine which = more power to move that extra tonnage faster...

Lighter mechs should go faster than heavier mechs. If a mech can both outgun and outrun mechs in lower weight classes then there is a fundamental imbalance. The only way 20-25 ton mechs will be viable in the current meta is if they can outrun 35 ton mechs. And if they cant theres no reason to use them.

Edited by Khobai, 20 September 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[CravenMadness]

No... The only way 20 ton mechs are viable, is the same way any mech is viable. Play it how it's viable, not how you want to play it. ... Don't like being killed in a 20 ton mech? Don't zoom out into the middle of the field first and get targeted by everything. Try pacing your big fat friends, and by the time the fights actually start, and intel starts flowing in, you can move almost freely through the skrim since (shock surprise) there are more important/dangerous things to be shooting at, than the three pulse laser spider, or four pulse laser Knell. Even the mean ol' jennies will be searching for more important things to use their firepower on.

"quote"
It has to be. Otherwise there is no reason to use a 20 ton mech if a 30 ton mech goes the same speed.

... So... Where's the hate for the raven 3L?

Edited by CravenMadness, 20 September 2013 - 05:59 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

No... The only way 20 ton mechs are viable, is the same way any mech is viable. Play it how it's viable, not how you want to play it.

That makes no sense. The reality is there is no situation where a 20 ton mech would be better than a Jenner as long as the Jenner can reach the 151 speed cap.

[Skunk Wolf]

IMHO lights should only shine when they have to cap objectives, swarm a target of opportunity or engage conventional forces.

3 things.

One of which are not in this game.

They don't need a nerf, they need something else to do.

Edited by Skunk Wolf, 20 September 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[Profiteer]

Bring back knockdowns.

[CravenMadness]

There's actually several situations where a 20 ton mech would be better than a Jenner...

As I said before, anti-light escort for bigs. A jenner is better used out in the field because, it can engage reliably as well as get away reliably. Commando would be better used in the mob of mechs waiting for targets of opportunity, IE that stalker just nuked someone with four large pulse lasers... Lock on and find a broken component and go pick it apart and scramble away.

You need a spotter? Spider does it better, with it's ecm, jump-jets for terrain navigation, and heavily articulated arms for tag. It too can get away because of it's speed. You can also put an er-large (and heaven forbid even an erppc) in that arm to harass while spotting.

Knell, again ecm coverage for the blob and anti-light support when they try to start playing Indians around your cowboys. (IE read circle-strafing your heavies/assaults). But you can't do that if you're 1200-1600 meters away dieing to a jenner in the middle of the field.

You have weight restrictions? Need that extra fifteen tons to have a heavier hitting Heavy mech or Assault on your composition? You'll shave it off of your light mechs first.

Have numbers' restrictions? Can't have more than three of everyone's favorite light? Bring in the 20 tonners.

Have equipment restrictions that would make the chassis' invalid? You need your alternatives.

Your argument is that 'speed' is what 'makes' or 'breaks' it... And that's just not true.

[Gaan Cathal]

Khobai, on 20 September 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Actually theres nothing wrong with 20-30 ton mechs going 151kph. Its the 35+ ton mechs going 151kph, like the Jenner, that's unbalanced. The Jenner already has a 10-15 ton advantage, a hardpoint advantage, and a jumpjet advantage over the Commando/Locust, it should not go faster too.

Actually, simple removal of the speed cap/unlocking of engine sizes would solve this. It's not that the Jenner/Raven is too fast, it's that the Spider/Locust is too slow.

[Kunae]

Khobai, on 20 September 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

That makes no sense. The reality is there is no situation where a 20 ton mech would be better than a Jenner as long as the Jenner can reach the 151 speed cap.

Then they need to raise the cap, not lower speeds.

The only way that 20t mechs would have a chance of viability is if they can go 180kph+

[Khobai]

Quote

Your argument is that 'speed' is what 'makes' or 'breaks' it... And that's just not true.

No. Speed is not the only thing that makes or breaks it. What I said was that the Jenner shouldnt have a tonnage advantage, a hardpoint advantage, a jumpjet advantage, AND a speed advantage. The problem is the Jenner is advantaged in nearly every category, aside from ECM, but ECM is hardly compulsory anymore. Theres also the one-hit kill imbalance, where mechs lighter than the Jenner can be one-hit killed, and basically get no benefit at all from double armor.

Also spiders are anomalous right now since they have completely whacked hitboxes. So its hard to say if anyone would even pilot them if they werent nigh unhittable. I know I hardly ever see commandos ever, and for good reason.

Quote

Then they need to raise the cap, not lower speeds.

The only way that 20t mechs would have a chance of viability is if they can go 180kph+

If they could raise the speed caps, they would have. The game engine limits them to 151kph. Thats why we havent seen the flea yet, because MASC is the only thing that would make the flea viable. Not sure how the locust will be viable though if its stuck going the same speed as a Jenner.

Edited by Khobai, 20 September 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Kunae]

Khobai, on 20 September 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

If they could raise the speed caps they would have. The game engine limits them to 151kph.

No, their inept programming limits them to 151kph. The game engine can handle it fine.

Edited by Kunae, 20 September 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[Harkonis]

If they could fix the speed cap and make lights move as fast as they 'should', then put knockdown back in. I think they would be balanced. People right now are just too able to take advantage of sloppy piloting imo. Once you have to worry about hitting stuff and falling over (then dying instantly), pilot skill becomes a huge balancing factor.

Lights SHOULD be really hard to hit, but they have to also have a bigger downside than they currently have. We're in an odd place right now where most of the lights feel weak to me due to the cap, where a couple feel too good due to hitbox issues combined with lack of punishment for bad piloting. (I also wish lights didn't bleed so much speed when landing from jj's, that would help a lot to survivability. they split second delay can be a death sentence)

[CravenMadness]

And it's breaking down into circular self supporting opinions. I've made my points, opposing your claim that there isn't viability to the other chassis.

*tip of the hat*

*edit*
as to the collision thing... It's sort of in effect in game. I know of several times where I've intentionally moved into the path of a scrambling light mech, and ran into it and caused it to lose all of its' momentum and then a team-mate (or three) nuked the mother-lover into scrap.

Or when being circle-strafed, putting yourself near buildings or sharp terrain... 'bad' pilots tend to run into cliffs while trying to stay focused on you, and end up tripping on walls that jump out and hit them in the face.

Edited by CravenMadness, 20 September 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[Kunae]

Harkonis, on 20 September 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

If they could fix the speed cap and make lights move as fast as they 'should', then put knockdown back in. I think they would be balanced. People right now are just too able to take advantage of sloppy piloting imo. Once you have to worry about hitting stuff and falling over (then dying instantly), pilot skill becomes a huge balancing factor.

Lights SHOULD be really hard to hit, but they have to also have a bigger downside than they currently have. We're in an odd place right now where most of the lights feel weak to me due to the cap, where a couple feel too good due to hitbox issues combined with lack of punishment for bad piloting. (I also wish lights didn't bleed so much speed when landing from jj's, that would help a lot to survivability. they split second delay can be a death sentence)

In the hands of an "average" pilot, lights are currently meat for anything heavier. The exception to this is caused by a broken HSR implementation. Once that is fixed, killing any light will be like swatting flies, all other things remaining constant.