183 replies to this topic

[DI3T3R]

It's not the speed. It's the tight curves they can run.

151 kph = 42 m/s

If a Spider runs a curve with a 10 meter radius at that speed, the pilot is subjected to a = v²/r = 176 m/s² = 17.6g

Congratulations! Your pilot is dead (because anything above 10g is lethal to the human body) and the centrifugal force has the Mech skidding and crashing uncontrollably through the landscape. (Unless it's in MWO...)

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 20 September 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Actually theres nothing wrong with 20-30 ton mechs going 151kph. Its the 35+ ton mechs going 151kph, like the Jenner, that's unbalanced. The Jenner already has a 10-15 ton advantage, a hardpoint advantage, and a jumpjet advantage over the Commando/Locust, it should not go faster too.

Speedcap should be based on tonnage rather than stock engine size. The more a mech weighs the lower its speedcap should be. Although certain mechs should get higher speed caps as part of their quirks.

For example...
20 tons = 151kph
25 tons = 147 kph
30 tons = 143 kph
35 tons = 139 kph

What that would do is give tiny mechs the ability to outrun any mech they cant outgun, which is exactly how it should be. Thats really the only thing that needs to be fixed with light mechs.

I definitely agree that the 25-20 ton lights need to be able to outrun the bigger lights, but nerfing the Jenner isn't the answer. We don't need every light to be as crappy as the Commando. What we do need to do is use the Jenner as the baseline for measuring the effectiveness of all other light mechs--sort of like how the ML and LL are used to measure weapon effectiveness instead of the Flamer or Small Laser. If a light isn't useful compared to the Jenner, buff the light that is less useful instead of nerfing the baseline. In this case, just make the little ones able to go above 151.


On a side note, we also need to change engine rules to help the Commando, Locust, etc. The external heatsink rule for sub-250 engines does nothing but punish people for not driving a 30+ ton light. What needs to change is that the first 10 required heatsinks need to be mounted inside of the engine instead of requiring external mounts (tonnage added to the engine appropriately). This would allow those tiny lights to actually take advantage of all tech upgrades like DHS, Endo, and FF all at the same time (which they currently have trouble doing). This is one of those TT rules that simply serves no purpose whatsoever other than because FASA felt like it. It needs to go.

Edited by FupDup, 20 September 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Kunae]

DI3T3R, on 20 September 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

It's not the speed. It's the tight curves they can run.

151 kph = 42 m/s

If a Spider runs a curve with a 10 meter radius at that speed, the pilot is subjected to a = v²/r = 176 m/s² = 17.6g

Congratulations! Your pilot is dead (because anything above 10g is lethal to the human body) and the centrifugal force has the Mech skidding and crashing uncontrollably through the landscape. (Unless it's in MWO...)

Fake math is fake.

They don't turn in a 10m radius.

[Antasius]

I agree that knockdowns need to come back soon, at the very least. And, quite frankly, a light mech hitting anything solid at 150 kph would be messy.

I'm afraid that the current build is favoring arcade game-play over good "don't do that, because it will hurt you, even with battletech physics" game-play - Way, way to much. I feel like I'm in a WoW battleground in 3rd person view with the 'lack of consequence' game play...

Giant robots shouldn't dance, they should rock-um sock-um till ther' heads pop up.

[Khobai]

Quote

What we do need to do is use the Jenner as the baseline for measuring the effectiveness of all other light mechs-

I would agree with that, if the speed cap could be raised above 151kph, but PGI hasnt indicated otherwise.

[DI3T3R]

Kunae, on 20 September 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

They don't turn in a 10m radius.

You sure? A Mech is about 10m high, now compare that to the mental image you have of a Spider running around. Make it 20m.

There are reasons, why no walking creature or machine can get that fast: They will eventually loose grip in a curve and start skidding.

If they want to offer a Mech-simulator, they better take the size of the Mechs into account.

[MustrumRidcully]

Let's talk again about this topic when we are sure all hit registration issues are fixed.

[Mehlan]

Quote

I agree that knockdowns need to come back soon, at the very least. And, quite frankly, a light mech hitting anything solid at 150 kph would be messy.

I'm afraid that the current build is favoring arcade game-play over good "don't do that, because it will hurt you, even with battletech physics" game-play - Way, way to much. I feel like I'm in a WoW battleground in 3rd person view with the 'lack of consequence' game play...

Giant robots shouldn't dance, they should rock-um sock-um till ther' heads pop up.

Collisions would likely use TT charge rules....have you actually LOOKED at those? Have you also considered what it would take for them to try to implement piloting checks, falling and skidding into account?

[Kunae]

DI3T3R, on 20 September 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

You sure? A Mech is about 10m high, now compare that to the mental image you have of a Spider running around. Make it 20m.

I am sure. They are not turning that tight, at those speeds. If you are seeing someone turn tight, they have either slowed down, or have used JJ's to turn with.

[General Taskeen]

This is mainly the product of full customization of Mech Lab in a Mech Warrior game - its not a new phenonom.

Lights are basically "balanced" relative to each other and other types of Mechs in Stock Format Only.

[Kyone Akashi]

In addition to what CravenMadness has already pointed out:

Khobai, on 20 September 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

No. Speed is not the only thing that makes or breaks it. What I said was that the Jenner shouldnt have a tonnage advantage, a hardpoint advantage, a jumpjet advantage, AND a speed advantage. The problem is the Jenner is advantaged in nearly every category, aside from ECM, but ECM is hardly compulsory anymore.

And, of course, size, which directly translates to how hard it is to hit something.

Khobai, on 20 September 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Theres also the one-hit kill imbalance, where mechs lighter than the Jenner can be one-hit killed, and basically get no benefit at all from double armor.

I call shenanigans. Just how exactly did you distribute your armor?

As has been pointed out, different types of 'Mechs perform differently in certain situations. The Jenner is a dedicated Skirmisher and has been noted in its TRO to having been developed specifically to take on and destroy heavier 'Mechs. A Raven makes for a better Scout, as its ECM capability and hardpoint systems allow it to equip a range of helpful devices such as TAG or Narc to assist the team with targeting solutions and recon, whilst equal armor as the Jenner make it sturdy enough to resist weapons fire for some time after having been spotted itself. The Spider and Commando clearly fall into the role of Harassers, as their small size and high mobility make them exceptionally hard to hit when they sprint and dart through an enemy formation, with the Spider deserving special mention due to its ability to load 8(!) jump jets as well as running close-range interference with its onboard Guardian suite.

You can try to kit out any 'Mech to perform in any role, but please - don't be surprised if some models are better suited for one than another.


As for Knockdowns, I'll leave my usual comment: Yes, why not, it's more realistic. But please only allow heavier 'Mechs knock down lighter ones. MWO was starting to get really unfun back in CB when half the Jenners were no longer interested in fighting (you know, what the game should be about) but rather just ran into you in order to turn your 'Mech into helpless target practice for their team's LRM boats. Being knocked down should never be a first-choice tactic, but rather something anyone ought to avoid at all costs.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 20 September 2013 - 06:50 AM.

[CGB Behemoth]

So what could i say? Well.... Maybe.... Author IS a damn BAD mechwarrior!
Don't see any trouble in hitting lights (except bugged spider). Two shots from AC20 = dead RVN,JR or COM.
Some shoting with lasers = onelegged RVN,JR or COM.

Really hate guys starting topics like "Nerf it.. Nerf that... Course i am crabhand!"

[Antasius]

Mehlan, on 20 September 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Collisions would likely use TT charge rules....have you actually LOOKED at those? Have you also considered what it would take for them to try to implement piloting checks, falling and skidding into account?

I'm a TT player from way back. Yup, I agree it would be challenging to implement - But as is, It just doesn't feel right. I'm guessing limitations in cry-engine 3 are partly to blame. I hope PGI will find a happy medium.

[DEMAX51]

I hate to say this, but you guys who think Lights are OP need to L2P, because they've already stated Lights are going to be getting BUFFED along the same lines as the Medium buffs they put in a few patches ago.

Edit: and to those saying the Jenner has too many advantages over other Lights, I have two points to make:
1. Don't forget about the Jenner's liability: a GARGANTUAN center torso that is one of the easiest-to-hit targets in the game
2. Weight limits are designed to balance the 25 and 35 ton mechs on a team-composition basis.

Edited by DEMAX51, 20 September 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Orkhepaj, on 20 September 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

but i cant see why meds are good at killing lights ,they are far easier to hit especially at specific body parts , doesnt support more weapons usually , and only have slight armor advantage, and ofcourse cant do driveby-s except cica

My trebuchet 7M with 3 sreaks, a LL, and 2 ML would like to have a word with you. Throw in a 110 KPH top end and jump jets and you have a very bad day for any light mech.

There are a number of mediums and heavies that can be set up as light mech killers, and any light mech that spends more than a moment or two within the line of sight of competent fire support mechs dies quickly. Yes lights are a pain to deal with for a lone heavy or assault, but this has to be this way for lights to have any value at all in a fight.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Given the present limitations of the game engine the actual speed of the mechs cannot be increased. What they could do is change the speed numbers giving a higher apparent speed and then slow all the mechs down. This would allow for more of a speed diferential.
It would also require torso twist, arm movement speed etc to be slowed down. This would take a lot of work and balancing to get it right. TBH it should probably have been done when they first realised the limitations of the game engine.
There would probably be a mass QQ from everyone. It would also have the effect of making all the maps appear bigger and give more purpose to the smaller. faster, mechs.

[Mehlan]

Quote

As for Knockdowns, I'll leave my usual comment: Yes, why not, it's more realistic. But please only allow heavier 'Mechs knock down lighter ones. MWO was starting to get really unfun back in CB when half the Jenners were no longer interested in fighting (you know, what the game should be about) but rather just ran into you in order to turn your 'Mech into helpless target practice for their team's LRM boats

Give me a break.... sorry dude, all your flat out asking for is a penalty for lighter mechs... What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. A sizeable impact @ or below your center of gravity should have a solid chance of knocking you on your arse.... Heck, go ahead....give us TT collisions. I'd have no problem ramming the leg of your big arse mech with one or two 4xml alphas on top of it. A knockdown would just be icing on the cake.

Edited by Mehlan, 20 September 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Fut]

Khobai, on 20 September 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Yeah no. There would be absolutely no reason to pilot a 20 ton mech then. What we actually need is more of a reason to pilot 20 ton mechs and less of a reason to pilot 35 ton mechs. Collision damage is the opposite of what we need.


It has to be. Otherwise theres no reason to use a 20 ton mech if a 30-35 ton mech can go the same max speed.


Lighter mechs should go faster than heavier mechs. If a mech can both outgun and outrun mechs in lower weight classes then there is a fundamental imbalance. The only way 20-25 ton mechs will be viable in the current meta is if they can outrun 35 ton mechs. And if they cant theres no reason to use them.

Umm.. Wrong. Collision damage is much needed in this game.

Mehlan, on 20 September 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Give me a break.... sorry dude, all your flat out asking for is a penalty for lighter mechs... What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. A sizeable impact @ or below your center of gravity should have a solid chance of knocking you on your arse.... Heck, go ahead....give us TT collisions. I'd have no problem ramming the leg of your big arse mech with one or two 4xml alphas on top of it.

Typically impacts above your center of gravity have a better chance of knocking you over.
Impacts below (ie. A Light running into the leg of an Assault) would just sort of slide you along the ground.

Edited by Fut, 20 September 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Umm.. Wrong. Collision damage is much needed in this game.

There IS collision damage in this game.... what a few are asking for is terrain based collision, and/or return of 'knockdowns'.

[Caswallon]

So folks are suggesting a speed nerf on Lights.. Hmm OK

Provided the slowed ones get an agility boost. I could forgo my 151Kph if I developed the ability to sidestep or some other agility feat that the more massive mechs simply could not perform.

It is a shame that massive speed is nearly the only thing Lights have going for them, it takes skill to pilot ANY class of Mech but honestly, I don't want to always play Nascar with a Battlemech. The times I die currently are usually:

• Because I slowed down (75%)
  
• because I was out of position (20%)
  
• coz the other guy got lucky/is a phenomenal shot (5%)

These are guesstimates I admit but feel about right.

It isn't right, that the major "skill" lights need is the ability to still target at speed. I slogged through Mastering my Ravens with none of them able to go much above 100 Kph but it made me learn other ways of playing a Light without simply relying on pure speed. I don't know if I would have the patience now as speed is the Light pilots Meta game. We use it coz we can't afford not to with the current state of the game.

Bring back collisions? Sure but give Lights the first crack at dodging them with a side step. But if you do manage to get us and were doing 150+ that fall should HURT more than a trip at say 64.8. But in compensation a light should be able to STAND BACK UP faster than a downed Assault. I don't care if he has a bigger engine (which is often not the case light to assault right?) we're talking Mass here.

-PGI: Balance is not simply nerfing something Its adding one thing and subtracting something else in compensation..